SPECTRE: TOP 5 elements "SPECTRE" must have to tackle all criticism that surrounded "SKYFALL"

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  • Posts: 12,526
    I'm in! ;) :))
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    I'm in! ;) :))
    I bet you are! But which finger- left or right? ;)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    dalton wrote: »
    And, you're right, what was Craig's Bond up to in his "prime". My feeling is, if you're going to reboot a franchise, then reboot it all the way. M should have been recast, some of the trappings that make a Bond film a "Bond film" should have fallen by the wayside, and they should have really started out by crafting a series of films about Bond starting out as a Double-oh and then progressing through his career, perhaps ending with adaptations of You Only Live Twice and The Man with the Golden Gun. Instead, they go from rookie Bond in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace to old man Bond in a film that is an odd mixture of elements from GoldenEye, The World is Not Enough and Ian Fleming's You Only Live Twice and The Man With the Golden Gun.

    Bingo. I think Bond should not have been aging in SF--it was too soon, given the events of CR and QoS. He still could have been bitter, off the grid and having lost a step as a result of M ordering the shot. M dying was enough of an "aging" arc for the film.

  • echo wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    And, you're right, what was Craig's Bond up to in his "prime". My feeling is, if you're going to reboot a franchise, then reboot it all the way. M should have been recast, some of the trappings that make a Bond film a "Bond film" should have fallen by the wayside, and they should have really started out by crafting a series of films about Bond starting out as a Double-oh and then progressing through his career, perhaps ending with adaptations of You Only Live Twice and The Man with the Golden Gun. Instead, they go from rookie Bond in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace to old man Bond in a film that is an odd mixture of elements from GoldenEye, The World is Not Enough and Ian Fleming's You Only Live Twice and The Man With the Golden Gun.

    Bingo. I think Bond should not have been aging in SF--it was too soon, given the events of CR and QoS. He still could have been bitter, off the grid and having lost a step as a result of M ordering the shot. M dying was enough of an "aging" arc for the film.

    With all do respect, but what do you actually expect when you, as a secret agent, are being shot from a train bridge?

    And for me he didn't look thát old. Sjee, he was just a tiny bit more wrinkled, and had a beard. That's all. In all honesty, this was for me an argument I didn't notice at all when I watched 'Skyfall' so many times, over and over again.

    And it's not only that! The scene in the Macau casino when Bond grabs Severine's wrist and says:

    007: "The tattoo on your wrist is Macau sex trade. You belonged to one of the houses. What were you? 12? 13? I'm guessing he [Silva] was your way out. Perhaps you thought you were in love. But that was a long time ago.
    Severine: "You know nothing about it."
    007: "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be."

    That last line oozed 'Casino Royale'. And despite the fact that there weren't that many references to previous Bond films, I think the whole atmosphere and feel of 'Skyfall' compares wunderfully with 'Casino Royale'. For me they are a 2-unity.
  • Posts: 1,631
    It's not just Bond's appearance, but rather the entire subplot of Skyfall that speaks to Bond being portrayed as probably too old in Skyfall. This whole idea that Bond and M are relics of a different era and not capable of facing down today's technological threats, while an interesting idea, isn't really something that's all that appropriate when following on the heels of two "rookie Bond" films. Further on down the line, that would sure be an interesting idea to portray in a Bond film, and would lend itself to some themes from Fleming's later novels to make their way into the narrative, but I don't think that film #3 in a rebooted series is the time to go to that well.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited September 2014 Posts: 12,480
    Yes, I love the way Skyfall merged back with Casino Royale at times. That was a sublime reference and just a great scene, Gustav_Graves.

    In Skyall, Bond was older, had been through some missions, and was definitely injured/battered and weather. But tremendously older? A far aged agent? No, not at all. But because he and been trained and molded by M, the two were linked. I never felt that Bond had ten years or more of previous missions in him by the time Skyfall rolled around. I did not have a sense of a huge gap of time, no.
    I think for M to be referred to as ready for retirement fit the story and arc of films, but Bond was her strongest agent and therefore just linked with her, in my opinion. So it was easy - when he was so injured and mentally burnt out, too - to lump him as ready to chuck it in.

    I think Mallory and others at first just felt it was a good time to "clean house" with M leaving, perhaps time for that hard to manage, grumpy, close to Judi's M, and now wounded warrior named Bond to leave, too. Fortunately, of course, Mallory's opinion changed. Bond is worth keeping after all, and has a few good many miles left in him too.
  • dalton wrote: »
    It's not just Bond's appearance, but rather the entire subplot of Skyfall that speaks to Bond being portrayed as probably too old in Skyfall. This whole idea that Bond and M are relics of a different era and not capable of facing down today's technological threats, while an interesting idea, isn't really something that's all that appropriate when following on the heels of two "rookie Bond" films. Further on down the line, that would sure be an interesting idea to portray in a Bond film, and would lend itself to some themes from Fleming's later novels to make their way into the narrative, but I don't think that film #3 in a rebooted series is the time to go to that well.

    I am sorry, but the problem you are stating kind of escapes me. It never really bothered me. Moreover, do not forget there were four years between QOS and SF. Between Casino Royale and SF four Bond films could have been made.
  • Posts: 12,526
    QBranch wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    I'm in! ;) :))
    I bet you are! But which finger- left or right? ;)

    I take the Lazenby and Craig approach........................................? The fist! :-O :-& =))
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    I'm in! ;) :))
    I bet you are! But which finger- left or right? ;)
    I take the Lazenby and Craig approach........................................? The fist! :-O :-& =))
    :-O Wow, now there's a mouthful! b-(

    *attempts to clean up the conversation*
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,119
    So, here is the list of 'Most frequent mentionings of aspects/elements that could be improved for Bond 24' as of September 2nd 2014[/b]:

    32 MENTIONINGS -> 'GUNBARREL BACK AT THE START'
    20 mentionings --> 'Return of more psychotic Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Christoph Waltz?)'
    19 mentionings --> 'Better memorable music score/No Thomas Newman'
    18 mentionings --> 'Bond bedding a real Bond-girl in the end'
    17 mentionings --> 'James Bond in the snow/Ski scenes'
    17 mentionings --> 'Simple, plain mission briefing in M's office'
    13 mentionings --> 'Larger role for Felix Leiter'
    11 mentionings --> 'Soak up culture of escapist/glamorous locations, smarter use of it'
    10 mentionings --> 'Better screenplay/story/more effective one-liners for Bond'
    10 mentionings --> 'Better fist fights, tougher James Bond'
    ====================================================
    09 mentionings --> 'Memorable henchman/henchwoman (Tilda Swinton?)'
    07 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate QUANTUM'
    07 mentionings --> 'More clever, less brutal action'
    07 mentionings --> 'More funny Q-gadgets'
    06 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'
    06 mentionings --> 'Bring in Formula One racing, new kind of carchase ('Rush')'
    06 mentionings --> 'A straightforward grand escapist Bond adventure (Thunderball-style?)'
    06 mentionings --> 'Lush, escapist production design'
    04 mentionings --> 'Return of Barry's 007 theme'
    04 mentionings --> 'Commander James Bond 007 in naval uniform'
    04 mentionings --> 'More fun, humor & escapism!'
    03 mentionings --> 'Bring back SKYFALL-crew, including director Sam Mendes'
    03 mentionings --> 'Wodka Martini, shaken......not stirred!'
    03 mentionings --> 'Bring in new/previous crew, including director Martin Campbell'
    03 mentionings --> 'Less CGI that is too obvious'
    02 mentionings --> 'Avoid the usual disappointing 'third-act''
    02 mentionings --> 'Big overblown finale in the end'
    02 mentionings --> 'A dinner with the villain (Dr.No/Kamal Khan)'
    02 mentionings --> 'Better use of Monty Norman's James Bond Theme'
    02 mentionings --> 'Different Bond-actor/replace Daniel Craig'
    02 mentionings --> 'Yes! Bring back the Aston Martin or another 2-door car'

    01 mentionings --> 'A Gala Brandt story arc'
    01 mentionings --> 'A villain-/ally-mixup, like in FYEO'
    01 mentionings --> 'Different cinematography/replace Roger Deakins'
    01 mentionings --> 'Let Daniel Craig carry the film completely/less ensemble cast'
    01 mentionings --> 'More screentime for Bond vs. villain'
    01 mentionings --> 'Use of Fleming's novels for inspiration, like YOLT'
    01 mentionings --> 'No Aston Martin-first time since TWINE'
    01 mentionings --> 'Re-visiting Tracy's and/or Vesper's grave'
    01 mentionings --> 'A well-executed escape scene'
    01 mentionings --> 'More espionage thriller-style'
    01 mentionings --> ‘No homages to previous films anymore’
    01 mentionings --> 'Beardless Daniel Craig'
    01 mentionings --> 'Flashbacks of Judi Dench'
    01 mentionings --> 'A Fleming title/chaptertitle for Bond 24 film title'
    01 mentionings --> 'Bond playing Texas Hold'Em or Chemin de Fer / Baccarat'
    01 mentionings --> 'Rock themed song'
    01 mentionings --> 'Make Bond trend-setting again, not trend-follower (stop Nolan-esque)'
    01 mentionings --> 'More important Bond-girl'
    01 mentionings --> 'No more corny one-liners for Bond (Daniel Craig)

  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,119
    So, here is the list of 'Most frequent mentionings of aspects/elements that could be improved for Bond 24' as of September 2nd 2014[/b]:

    32 MENTIONINGS -> 'GUNBARREL BACK AT THE START'
    20 mentionings --> 'Return of more psychotic Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Christoph Waltz?)'
    19 mentionings --> 'Better memorable music score/No Thomas Newman'
    18 mentionings --> 'Bond bedding a real Bond-girl in the end'
    17 mentionings --> 'James Bond in the snow/Ski scenes'
    17 mentionings --> 'Simple, plain mission briefing in M's office'
    13 mentionings --> 'Larger role for Felix Leiter'
    11 mentionings --> 'Soak up culture of escapist/glamorous locations, smarter use of it'
    10 mentionings --> 'Better screenplay/story/more effective one-liners for Bond'
    10 mentionings --> 'Better fist fights, tougher James Bond'
    ====================================================
    09 mentionings --> 'Memorable henchman/henchwoman (Tilda Swinton?)'
    07 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate QUANTUM'
    07 mentionings --> 'More clever, less brutal action'
    07 mentionings --> 'More funny Q-gadgets'
    06 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'
    06 mentionings --> 'Bring in Formula One racing, new kind of carchase ('Rush')'
    06 mentionings --> 'A straightforward grand escapist Bond adventure (Thunderball-style?)'
    06 mentionings --> 'Lush, escapist production design'
    04 mentionings --> 'Return of Barry's 007 theme'
    04 mentionings --> 'Commander James Bond 007 in naval uniform'
    04 mentionings --> 'More fun, humor & escapism!'
    03 mentionings --> 'Bring back SKYFALL-crew, including director Sam Mendes'
    03 mentionings --> 'Wodka Martini, shaken......not stirred!'
    03 mentionings --> 'Bring in new/previous crew, including director Martin Campbell'
    03 mentionings --> 'Less CGI that is too obvious'
    02 mentionings --> 'Avoid the usual disappointing 'third-act''
    02 mentionings --> 'Big overblown finale in the end'
    02 mentionings --> 'A dinner with the villain (Dr.No/Kamal Khan)'
    02 mentionings --> 'Better use of Monty Norman's James Bond Theme'
    02 mentionings --> 'Different Bond-actor/replace Daniel Craig'
    02 mentionings --> 'Yes! Bring back the Aston Martin or another 2-door car'

    01 mentionings --> 'A Gala Brandt story arc'
    01 mentionings --> 'A villain-/ally-mixup, like in FYEO'
    01 mentionings --> 'Different cinematography/replace Roger Deakins'
    01 mentionings --> 'Let Daniel Craig carry the film completely/less ensemble cast'
    01 mentionings --> 'More screentime for Bond vs. villain'
    01 mentionings --> 'Use of Fleming's novels for inspiration, like YOLT'
    01 mentionings --> 'No Aston Martin-first time since TWINE'
    01 mentionings --> 'Re-visiting Tracy's and/or Vesper's grave'
    01 mentionings --> 'A well-executed escape scene'
    01 mentionings --> 'More espionage thriller-style'
    01 mentionings --> ‘No homages to previous films anymore’
    01 mentionings --> 'Beardless Daniel Craig'
    01 mentionings --> 'Flashbacks of Judi Dench'
    01 mentionings --> 'A Fleming title/chaptertitle for Bond 24 film title'
    01 mentionings --> 'Bond playing Texas Hold'Em or Chemin de Fer / Baccarat'
    01 mentionings --> 'Rock themed song'
    01 mentionings --> 'Make Bond trend-setting again, not trend-follower (stop Nolan-esque)'
    01 mentionings --> 'More important Bond-girl'
    01 mentionings --> 'No more corny one-liners for Bond (Daniel Craig)

    So it seems element no#5 (17 mentionings) was also high on the list of Sam Mendes/Barbara Broccoli/Michael Wilson ;-). Because now Sölden seems to be confirmed also:
    http://www.kleinezeitung.at/nachrichten/leute/kaernten/3751118/bond-film-flugzeug-nimmt-kurs-osttirol.story

    As mentioned in the article, the Rettenbachferner glacier near Sölden is one of the most popular black piste resorts in Austria!! Apparently, it was one of the candidate resorts to host the alpine skiing events if Salzburg would have hosted the 2014 Winter Olympics. Currently, Rettenbachferner glacier is used for many World Cup and World Championship Alpine Skiing events. Just have a look at the Wiki-page:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rettenbach_glacier

    The Rettenbachferner glacier in winter:
    jechlas_zwieselstein_winter_09.jpg
    IMG_5486_zps6387caf7.jpg

    The Rettenbachferner Glacier is located in between two of the highest mountains in Austria, the "Äußere Schwarze Schneid" (3,255 m's) and the "Karleskogel" (3,106 m's). And the glacier eventually flows into the alpine city of Sölden.

    Wun-der-ful news :-). It seems we're getting a true classical "winter Bond film". Now I most certainly don't think that this aspect will improves the flaws that "Skyfall" had. But if done correctly, the winter locations in Bond 24 can actually create a better plot/story. As long as Austria is truly the most important location for Bond 24.
  • And what about the other aspects/elements?
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    I don't understand why everyone here wants to bring back Blofeld and Spectre. Blofeld has unfortunately become a parody; there are way more creative villains we can come up with. Also, I don't see the point of bringing back SPECTRE, maybe in a contemporary fashion, but again it's outdated, and not particularly intriguing or special other than it's ties to Fleming, same with Quantum.
  • Posts: 11,119
    I don't understand why everyone here wants to bring back Blofeld and Spectre. Blofeld has unfortunately become a parody; there are way more creative villains we can come up with. Also, I don't see the point of bringing back SPECTRE, maybe in a contemporary fashion, but again it's outdated, and not particularly intriguing or special other than it's ties to Fleming, same with Quantum.

    Do you really think I support a copy-paste of Blofeld and SPECTRE from the Bond film YOLT? Do you really think I would admire such an uncreative approach? Or did you perhaps read some suggestions on how a re-introduction of Blofeld and SPECTRE could be achieved?

    James Bond is a franchise, a goddamn 50 year old franchise. Simply ignoring characters like Moneypenny and Q is IMO not done. So thank god they have been re-introduced in a creative and intriguing way. So why not do it with SPECTRE and Blofeld.

    QUANTUM? Could be done also. But then please not how it was shown in QOS. "We've got people everywhere". Yeah, uhm, ok? Hence the fact that 007 exposed the inneffective bunch of opera-nerds quite easily. Nah, I prefer the secrecy of SPECTRE.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Not everybody wants Blofeld back. But with EON now having the rights to the character, many of us expect that character will return in some form, possibly Bond 24 or 25. I highly doubt he would look like the Blofeld of old. Quantum may make a return, in lieu of or as part of SPECTRE.

    Blofeld and SPECTRE are just part of the lore, and some folks really like bringing those around again. I am okay with it either way, if well done. But I'm happy for Quantum to be mentioned instead of SPECTRE.

    I'm very happy at least a part of this film, and not a fleeting part it seems, will be in lovely, snowy landscape.

  • Posts: 11,119
    Anyway, to stay on topic. I've read quite a lot of criticism about 'skyfall'. Let's ventilate that in this topic shall we? And come up with solutions to make Bond 24 even more critically acclaimed than CR.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Anyway, to stay on topic. I've read quite a lot of criticism about 'skyfall'. Let's ventilate that in this topic shall we? And come up with solutions to make Bond 24 even more critically acclaimed than CR.

    A lot of "criticism" on this thread is really more something to add to a wish list. Bond in a Navy uniform, Blofeld, etc.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Anyway, to stay on topic. I've read quite a lot of criticism about 'skyfall'. Let's ventilate that in this topic shall we? And come up with solutions to make Bond 24 even more critically acclaimed than CR.

    A lot of "criticism" on this thread is really more something to add to a wish list. Bond in a Navy uniform, Blofeld, etc.

    But I mean....also things like filming style, more action oriented editing, keeping certain potholes so that the villain can be made more mysterious, less focus on cinematography, more "straight in your face" kind of filming (what you see is what you get), no political themes or other central theme, a less famous actor compared to Javier Bardem, better use of locations, forcing composer to compose "better melodies", etc.....
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    keeping certain potholes so that the villain can be made more mysterious,

    ...
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    keeping certain potholes so that the villain can be made more mysterious,

    ...

    I wrote that with you in mind @RC7 :-P.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Anyway, to stay on topic. I've read quite a lot of criticism about 'skyfall'. Let's ventilate that in this topic shall we? And come up with solutions to make Bond 24 even more critically acclaimed than CR.

    A lot of "criticism" on this thread is really more something to add to a wish list. Bond in a Navy uniform, Blofeld, etc.

    But I mean....also things like filming style, more action oriented editing, keeping certain potholes so that the villain can be made more mysterious, less focus on cinematography, more "straight in your face" kind of filming (what you see is what you get), no political themes or other central theme, a less famous actor compared to Javier Bardem, better use of locations, forcing composer to compose "better melodies", etc.....

    My biggest criticism with SF is the more contrived last act, especially in regard to Silva's escape and attempted revenge at M. Too many variables he could not have controlled, too many coincidences that favoured him. His computer skills are borderline deus ex machina as well. I don't mind a villain being highly organized and be ultimately defeated by his own hubris, quite the contrary, but I didn't quite buy it in SF. In DN, Bond's escape and triumph over Dr No, I could, even though it was maybe just as contrived, if only because it was a B movie. It was a rushed climax, but it worked in the context.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Anyway, to stay on topic. I've read quite a lot of criticism about 'skyfall'. Let's ventilate that in this topic shall we? And come up with solutions to make Bond 24 even more critically acclaimed than CR.

    A lot of "criticism" on this thread is really more something to add to a wish list. Bond in a Navy uniform, Blofeld, etc.

    But I mean....also things like filming style, more action oriented editing, keeping certain potholes so that the villain can be made more mysterious, less focus on cinematography, more "straight in your face" kind of filming (what you see is what you get), no political themes or other central theme, a less famous actor compared to Javier Bardem, better use of locations, forcing composer to compose "better melodies", etc.....

    My biggest criticism with SF is the more contrived last act, especially in regard to Silva's escape and attempted revenge at M. Too many variables he could not have controlled, too many coincidences that favoured him. His computer skills are borderline deus ex machina as well. I don't mind a villain being highly organized and be ultimately defeated by his own hubris, quite the contrary, but I didn't quite buy it in SF. In DN, Bond's escape and triumph over Dr No, I could, even though it was maybe just as contrived, if only because it was a B movie. It was a rushed climax, but it worked in the context.

    So let's improve that element for Bond 24 then, no ;-)? "Less variables and loop holes in the screenplay" for Bond 24.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    One thing I do hope they keep going with is the runtime CR and SF had. Both, but especially CR, had plenty of meat on their bones. I hope Bond 24 has similar traits and Mendes takes his time to really flesh out those locales.
  • Posts: 11,119
    One thing I do hope they keep going with is the runtime CR and SF had. Both, but especially CR, had plenty of meat on their bones. I hope Bond 24 has similar traits and Mendes takes his time to really flesh out those locales.

    Me too. By doing that you have so much more time to properly develop the characters (OHMSS, CR, SF). Also, there seems to be a trend to longer running times for action oriented franchises. "M:I 5" seems to go for an unprecedented 135 min's. Most of Nolan's action packed movies exceed the 150 min's.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited October 2014 Posts: 8,216
    One thing I do hope they keep going with is the runtime CR and SF had. Both, but especially CR, had plenty of meat on their bones. I hope Bond 24 has similar traits and Mendes takes his time to really flesh out those locales.

    Me too. By doing that you have so much more time to properly develop the characters (OHMSS, CR, SF). Also, there seems to be a trend to longer running times for action oriented franchises. "M:I 5" seems to go for an unprecedented 135 min's. Most of Nolan's action packed movies exceed the 150 min's.

    I've noticed that, too. It's one trend that I'm happy with, as you want to get your moneys worth when going to the cinema these days. Anything between 130-140 minutes is healthy enough, for me.
  • What about featuring tennis in Bond 24 :-)?? We've never seen Bond playing this 200% British, suave sports? Nor has there been any filming on the Wimbledon courts yet :-). Good idea?

    I always try to think of things that could be as suave as British spy 007, but that have never featured in a Bond film yet. One can think of Formula One racing. A very upper-class sports, and it would suit the Bond films. But so does tennis no?
  • Posts: 15,117
    Is the absence of tennis or any sport in SF a flaw of the movie?
  • edited November 2014 Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Is the absence of tennis or any sport in SF a flaw of the movie?

    I don't understand the link of your question to my post....as I am not mentioning that any Bond films without sports in it is "flawed".

    To answer your question: Off course not you fool ;-).
  • Posts: 15,117
    Well I must have misread the title of this thread.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    Well I must have misread the title of this thread.

    No you didn't. But every now and then a little bit off-topic discussion isn't all that bad. If you really stick to the topic, then perhaps the introduction of tennis or formula one as a secondary sports, being practiced by a villain or a henchman, could at least add some uniqueness and creative originality to the franchise. Think of golf in "Goldfinger". Tennis is practiced by Dr. garner in "Devil May Care". And Formula One could be stuff for a Bond-less PTS in which a henchman gets killed during one of his races.

    And the above in itself could facilitate quality :-).
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