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My point was he was trying to say that Fleming wasn't that racist beause he depicted a black man in a position of power.. but it's a false argument because that position of power in this case is the villain. I'd stretch Fleming was hinting that blacks in power can only be villains.
Don't generalize my statements. My point was specific to LALD, Fleming, and his specific series.
Well what about Quarrel? Apart from the inevitable cultural deference to Bond the great white man which is a product of its time rather than Fleming, he is a loyal companion to Bond and pretty much his equal.
So is making Drax a German racist as well? I dont relly follow your logic - Fleming has villains of many races and nationalities. If a Bond villain is not British does that make Fleming automatically racist?
You've made the same argument twice now.
It's not any 'logic'. I'm simply stating Fleming did not conciously depict a black man in power to be a good thing. He's the villain. The book is racist. The black man is the villain, and the black good guy stutters with proper English and is only an aide to the Englishman. Fleming being racist does NOT come down to a black man being the villain. It comes down to chapter 7, to how he describes black individuals and communities; it comes down to how he depicts them as fearing this voodoo nonsense, and his whole attitude towards them in the novel. In THIS novel. Live and Let Die. That's what I'm arguing. Please stop generalizing it to other work. Live and Let Die is racist towards blacks, no doubt about it.
Do I have an issue with it? No. I'm not racist. In fact I find it interesting how acceptable that sort of attitude was when the book was published. It adds to the novel, gives it a personality; even if that personality isn't so politically correct.
And German isn't a race, so if I was displaying any 'logic' to 'follow', that argument is invalid. Drax was a Nazi, and I don't think Fleming wanted to depict the Nazis as good people either.
Can we move on.
And the pigs at the trough remark still works when one looks at the punters at a stropbar today. O:-)
Well if you preface your arguments with that theres not a lot else to be said is there?
The prominent black character in this book is a successful man in his field (which just happens to be criminality) and has the upper hand over Bond on several occasions and nearly kills him and Felix. The only reason Bond survives (and he only just survives) is because he is the hero and that is how stories work and not because he is some sort of superior white ubermensch.
Isnt true equality when black people can be depicted as villains as well as heroes?
'As for the 'black good guy stutters with proper English' just what point are you making there? That hes unable to speak received pronunciation because he is black?
The guy is a fisherman in 1950's Jamaica for christs sake! If he spoke like a BBC newsreader it would be ludicrous. If he was from Latvia or Bulgaria and couldnt speak English particularly well would that be Fleming being racist or could it just be that people who arent born in a certain country dont tend to speak that language perfectly? Bond has been to Eton and Fettes - Quarrel probably never went to school, hence, surprisingly, Bond comes across as more educated, but I never detect any condescension from Bond towards him.
Quarrel is not a racist portrayal as he is an expert in his field, advising Bond on what fish to avoid etc and I would contend that Fleming would be more au fait with how the average Jamaican spoke in 1953 than you are.
I've just read chapter 7 and I dont see a lot there. Theres mention of some of Mr Bigs henchmen being scared of Baron Samdedi effigy but thats about it. From what I know I would say this was not outlandish in Haiti in the 50s, hence the rise of Papa Doc. Just look at all the ridiculous evangelical churches in the US which are full of idiots dancing around with snakes and giving all their money to the guy at the front who tells them they will be saved if they buy his DVD. Credulous fools of every race have always been with us and still are.
Chapters 5 and 6 are more dubious but seem to me nothing more than an upper class Englishman with his attendant attitudes of the time trying to clumsily (when looking at it through modern eyes) depict working class black life in Harlem. If Bond had taken Felix to a working mans club in Bigg Market would the locals be any different and the patois any easier to understand?
To state 'the book is racist' is quite hysterical by the way. Mein Kampf is racist Live and Let Die is not. It is a simple thriller which has several prominent black characters who are depicted as both good and bad which has a few passages which are a little uncomfortable to read these days but which contain perfectly commonplace attitudes of the time. At no time do I see Fleming depicting blacks as inferior because of their race. If they are inferior to Bond it is because they are simple working people with little education (Quarrel, people drinking in a dingy bar in Harlem) or because they are in thrall to religion (the people scared of voodoo). You could just as easily have the book set in Italy with the Pope as the villain controlling gullible fools through their belief in an ancient myth and Bond goes to Sicily and hooks up with a working class fisherman who doesnt speak a lot of English.
Right, sorry. Forgot we live in modern Britain where only certain groups are allowed to be offended. Sorry any Germans not happy with Fleming making the villain a caricatured stereotype from your country and Bond calling him a kraut but you dont tick the right boxes to be allowed to take offence.
So let me get it straight (if I can follow the, as you state yourself, pretty flimsy thread of logic on which you seem to be hanging your argument) - Drax being a Nazi supercedes him being German so Flemings portrayal of him is not offensive to Germans but Mr Big a communist (or at least sympathiser) working for SMERSH does not supercede him being black so is therefore racist?
You should've quit after this old chap as its the last point at which you made sense.
Look, your going to far with this: I AM NOT MAKING THESE STATEMENTS. I AM NOT RACIST. You freaking blamed me up there for syaing that blacks 'stutter with proper English because of their color'. I WAS JUST FREAKING SAYING WHAT FLEMING PUT IN THE DAMN BOOK.
THERE IS NO THREAD OF LOGIC. What I'm saying is simple. Fleming was racist. He was not racist against the Germans (because they're not a race), but he was racist against blacks. I didn't even read your full argument. The first freaking three sentences pissed me off. Your too naive, and you keep broadening my Goddamn arguments beyond Live and Let Die.
So I'm ending this. You're clearly too shallow to understand what I'm trying to say. So I'll stop saying it. FLEMING depicted blacks in a poor light. This has nothing to do with 'true equality', this has to do with FLEMING.
I can't believe you can't grasp that simple, simple concept. That's all I'm talking about. I'm not talking about racism in society, racism in literature; all I'm saying is Fleming's book Live and Let Die depicts African peoples in a poor light.
Stop trying to make it more than that.
I'm not tyring to offend you or anyone else. I am not racist. Fleming was. That's my point.
Don't reply, because I'm so awestruck at your ability to piss me off it will be a waste of time.
You categorically label Fleming a racist (which is actually libellous unless you can back it up) because he depicts 'black people in a poor light'.
Well one is the villain who, you would assume in a work of fiction is going to be someone who is likely to be portrayed in a bad light and one is a poorly educated fisherman who therefore is unlikely to be a professor of English.
The key point which you seem singuarly unable to grasp is that they are only portrayed in a 'bad light' because of their character traits and not because of their skin colour - ie:
Mr Big is the villain because he is BAD. The fact that the villain in this story uses voodoo to control his gang and operates out of Harlem means he is also quite likely to be black.
Quarrel cant speak English because he is NOT FROM ENGLAND not because he is black and Fleming thinks he is too stupid.
Fleming had the typical inbuilt racist attitudes that were prevalent at the time in the white population but that does not mean he is someone who should be singled out for particular castigation. As someone who made his home and was happiest in a country where the people are predominantly black seems to bear this out and having read various biographies of the man, he certainly wasnt perfect but I dont ever remember this charge being levelled at him.
You seem to be making wild accusations about the mans character on the most tenuous arguments.
And incidentally I dont remember accusing you of being racist at any point so please stop getting so upset. I'm just accusing you of being incapable of differentiating between a character having particular traits merely to further the narrative rather than because the author is a racist and wants to denigrate their ethnic group.
Bond is a killer, womaniser and virtual alcoholic which is totally fine apparently. If Bond suddenly became black would you immediately start wailing that Fleming is racist because the main character has all these negative vices?
But I'm clearly wasting my time aghast as you seem to be at the thought of logic being used in an argument.
The book is exciting and Fleming gives his famous lengthy descriptive passages but, to me there is certainly a racist undertone to the story. As a young person in 2012 reading it I do feel a bit uncomfortable at certain points.
It's clear that Fleming, while perhaps not hating black people, regards them as somewhat inferior. The way he describes how they breathe heavily when the dancer "G-G" comes on stage combined with the crude remarks instructing her to take her clothes off almost makes me wince (he describes them as acting like "pigs at a trough")
Additionally Fleming, at one point refers to two of Mr Big's goons as "black apes". You certainly wouldn't get away with stuff like that now.
There's no point in crucifiying Fleming because 1. He's dead and 2. He's probably one of millions who thought the same way.
I've been told by my now 91 year old grandfather that when he was growing up, seeing a black person walking down the street was a rare thing. So imagine a snob like Fleming visiting a place like New York/Harlem. It must have been a different world to Britain - even in the 1950s which saw a rise in imigration.
I can't say how often he mixed with black people when he was at Goldeneye but its known that his next door neighbour was Noal Coward, a white Brit with similar links to the upper class social circle. I suspect Fleming was tolerant about people with different lifestyles (Coward was a homosexual) but that doesn't mean he liked it.
There's no point getting into a fuss about this - but it's definitely a good thing this kind of stuff doesn't appear now in literature or films.
Well this applies to any group of men watching a woman strip. In fact Bond himself gets turned on the same as the crowd whilst watching but why do these remarks suddenly become racist when applied to black people?
I think both you and JWESTBROOK are suffering from the modern malaise of becoming ultra sensitive the moment you hear the word 'black' and from then on are searching for anything that can be possibly construed as racist. Had Fleming described a load of chavs on a stag night gawping at a stripper as 'pigs at a trough' no one would bat an eyelid.
If you want to see Fleming being properly racist try GF as some of his comments about Koreans are pretty appalling but of course Koreans dont have as good PR as certain other groups regarding being offended hence chants about Park Ji Sung eating dogs are seen as a bit of fun by everyone in football but Luis Suarez gets an 8 match ban for something that was not even proven he said.
Cant really defend this except that it is just the casual racism of the time that was accepted. Although are you sure this is something Fleming says as narrator or is it something he has Bond say as this makes a big difference? Although as we all know Fleming was essentially Bond so perhaps not.
Indeed, but it's hard to tell if we're hearing Bond's description, or Flemings in the novels. Fleming has a very unique "nth person" perspective in his writing. There's descriptions of events, and then there's passages of Bond's thoughts, but Fleming clearly differentiates between the two.
The remark is made casually by Fleming in the passage when Bond first meets Big:
"It would be a clumsy affair to have him disappear a couple of days after he arrived from England unless a very expert accident could be contrived. And Leiter would have to be disposed of at the same time. That would be altogether too much for their services and Mr Big must know it. But he worried about Leiter in the hands of those clumsy black apes"
I think it's worth noting that Mr Big himself is not put in the same bracket as the "Why'nt yuh hush yo mouff" men at the club. In contrast Big is described as being softly spoken with hints of American and French accents "without a trace of slang".
I'm not going to throw the book at the wall in disgust. Its a good novel and, despite the racist passages, far better than the film.
- Carte Blanche
- Casino Royal (1st)
- Dr. No
- Diamonds Are Forever
- Devil May Care
- Casino Royal (2nd)
- Live and Let Die
- Moonraker
Fleming's ones are excellent but my favourite is "Devil May Care" ; my least favourite being LALD
I see no reason to beat about the bush here - you, Sir, are, unequivocally, an idiot.
I've never seen you be equivocal yet, Ice!
The Point is,that at that time he was absolutely right. Mr. Big could have been brilliant as Einstein and a Leader like Alexander the Great,still NOBODY would have offered him a Job more prestigious than a facility Manager. Even today black CEOs, Investment Bankers etc are much more the exception than the rule and a black US President (of which i am not really a Fan) gets hated Much more and intense than any of his Precedors ( which really means something in a Country that had the likes of Nixon and George W.)
About MR and that German Thing. Well, i am absolutely positive,that Fleming despised Germans - just as about anybody else at that time (and from my Point of View they all had quite compelling reasons to do so) and as the Euro Crisis has shown us, those views and Feelings weren't buried too deep in the last 5 decades.
I agree Matt_Helm.
I dont think Flemings opinions in any of the Bond novels are anything but that of the man in the street and are far from controversial - for the times he was writing in.
In those days:
- Casual racism was commonplace.
- Barely 10 years after the war hatred towards Germany was even more common.
- Homosexuality was illegal.
- Britain still considered itself superior to every other nation.
Its notable that in the classic review its the 'sex, snobbery and sadism' that the writer complains about.
No mention of 'Chegroes' or the villain being Chinese because it just wasnt an issue to people back then.
And come to think of it why has no one come out and said DN is an inherently racist book too?
Why does the debate gravitate straight to LALD? All the villains in DN are Chinese or 'Chegroes' but I dont see the same criticisms. Seems that some races corner the market on racism.
An erudite, factually correct and well-written post. @TheWizardOfIce!
The Chinese were tarred with the one brush for years - remember the Yellow Peril and the Hun - Fleming refers to these two stereotypes in several interviews as being the fodder he read as a boy in the penny horror comics. It seems racism is only racism when it concerns black people, on here at least.