Should Mr White meet Blofeld or do you think they already know each other?

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Debatable. ;-)
    Cuckoo!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Debatable. ;-)
    Cuckoo!

    Now you're just trying to wind me up!

    I think 'My little brother' is the line where it really jumps the shark though.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited April 2016 Posts: 4,043
    It's such a shame because if a brother like angle was to be used they could have easily made this between White & Blofeld.

    The reason White was on the run and had grown disillusioned with SPECTRE/Quantum was pretty weak in the finished film.

    Those 2 could have been shown to have been very close and in sync at the beginning but something happened that changed White's view of the organisation and ESB's motivation. If only this had been explored instead of all that nonsense about him being connected to Bond's childhood and Oberhauser.

    This would have strengthened the whole ESB element and also played into Bond and Swann's bond together, Jesper Christinsen is such a terrific actor and could have been used more.

    Blofeld would have only been in the shadows of Bond's life since the actions of CR and not at the beginning of his life.

    They could have tied things together that more credibly, White could have pushed Bond to investigate not getting Q to turn up and scan a bloody ring and reveal everything, let Bond do some detecting and discover the connection.

    Blofeld would reveal himself at the end to Bond as being behind everything since CR Bond would know this but then he could then reveal that he was behind Silva something before then which hadn't occured to Bond and then taut him about being instrumental in Dench's M's death.

    They could still have used M message from the grave but Bond's secret would be he was covertly investigating the organisation that M had been looking into before her death, the film wouldn't have felt like a direct follow on so much and Skyfall needn't have been mentioned.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited April 2016 Posts: 24,179
    I agree I didn't need the brother thing. I never do by the way. I hate it when they bring stuff too close to Bond's private life. The only two exceptions I will allow and even endorse, belong to the Fleming legacy: Vesper and Tracy. Other than that though, I had no need for Bond family stuff in either SF or SP. (Incidentally, the one film that crosses the line most for me is TWINE. It may not be Bond's family there, but that whole King-M thing - with Electra actually calling her "M" - and then Zukovsky's nephew... terrible!).

    Blofeld, I'm sure, could have been given a much better back-story. He and Bond can become mortal enemies in SP and duke it out in the sequels. But now, it seems they've already reached the peak of their potential with this character. And that is a waste of a perfectly good character. Why not make Blofeld the Moriarty to Bond's Sherlock, or the Dracula to Bond's Van Helsing? Instead they make him Kain to Bond's Abel and that story is over pretty quickly.

    As for Whyte, oh well, I have no problem with him being the "fallen one". I don't believe his ethics though, seeing that this guy used to arrange things for the benefit of terrorists all over the world... He doesn't mind helping to fund warlords who train child soldiers but suddenly it's "no women, no children"? Forget it. The reason for his falling-out with Blofeld should have been more selfish.
  • The tragedy is that if we take away the brother thing and the SF retcon the story still functions perfectly fine. Blofeld just wants revenge on Bond for foiling his plans in CR and QOS.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Indeed. It could have been just that simple. I'm a sucker for continuity, something we get little of in the Bonds any way, so I for one actually enjoyed tying up the loose ends of CR, QOS and SF in this film. All baddies were working under the SP umbrella. Heaven! So what was wrong with a Blofeld like the one we got in FRWL? Reminiscing how Bond killed DN, Blofeld demands his death to be a very unpleasant one. The 'updated' Blofeld of SP could have been that same guy, getting a little upset over losing LeChiffre, Greene and Silva.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    There was enough motivation for ESB to have a grudge against Bond with what he'd done to Quantum, White high tailing it should have been about him loosing power despite the organisation initially being more the both of them together but Blofeld tried to take more control, hence him doing something unforgivable making it impossible to return and go into hiding, Bond's own foiling a previous scheme could have played into that, like Tierra project.

    Like @DarthDimi said a selfish reasons, then strenghthen the whole Swann element. Bond being the ideal person to her being an assasin was quite brilliant but it needed to be realised so much better, not a chance with tweedle dum and tweedle dee at the keyboard.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Indeed. Folks keep bringing in these overly dramatic ideas that have no place in a Bond film. In TWINE it was all about a daughter betraying her father and surrogate mother. In DAD we saw a son with daddy issues. In SF, Bond loses it when they mention the house he grow up in and M sees her good 'son' and her bad 'son' battle it out. SP throws all of that in the mix: Madeleine has daddy issues, Blofeld has daddy issues, Bond has his missing bro to reconnect with... There's this over-reliance on themes that usually work, if handled well, in drama films with an ambition to win Oscars, but which quickly become too much in a Bond film. I'm not a SF or SP hater, let me be clear on that. In fact, I really like SF and SP! But please next time give me a film in which Bond gets an assignment which he then carries out, saving us from some big evil and done.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    Indeed. Folks keep bringing in these overly dramatic ideas that have no place in a Bond film. In TWINE it was all about a daughter betraying her father and surrogate mother. In DAD we saw a son with daddy issues. In SF, Bond loses it when they mention the house he grow up in and M sees her good 'son' and her bad 'son' battle it out. SP throws all of that in the mix: Madeleine has daddy issues, Blofeld has daddy issues, Bond has his missing bro to reconnect with... There's this over-reliance on themes that usually work, if handled well, in drama films with an ambition to win Oscars, but which quickly become too much in a Bond film. I'm not a SF or SP hater, let me be clear on that. In fact, I really like SF and SP! But please next time give me a film in which Bond gets an assignment which he then carries out, saving us from some big evil and done.

    To achieve this, step one is to kick out Purvis and Wade.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    It is a mystery to me why they keep these two on board. These guys wrote TWINE and DAD. Whatever ideas Apted and Tamahori may have had, the script came from P&W. Their CR script, as I understand, was heavily doctored and polished. Besides, that script grabs its best stuff from Fleming.

    They keep replacing directors. Why not the writers?
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Erm, Mr White killed himself, any IMO Specter and Blofeld are responsible for him to be kiled through his mobile.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I can see the issues with SF but I still hold that near the top but SPECTRE continued the thread and took it a step too far.

    That should have been it a suitable end to the Dench era then a full stop.

    I have no problem with leaving him a clue but instead of leading to Daddy issues it should have got Bond's head working and not letting Paul Ritter return as Guy Haines was such a missed opportunity, they could really have tied the era with some real narrative sense instead of what we got.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited April 2016 Posts: 10,591
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Indeed. Folks keep bringing in these overly dramatic ideas that have no place in a Bond film. In TWINE it was all about a daughter betraying her father and surrogate mother. In DAD we saw a son with daddy issues. In SF, Bond loses it when they mention the house he grow up in and M sees her good 'son' and her bad 'son' battle it out. SP throws all of that in the mix: Madeleine has daddy issues, Blofeld has daddy issues, Bond has his missing bro to reconnect with... There's this over-reliance on themes that usually work, if handled well, in drama films with an ambition to win Oscars, but which quickly become too much in a Bond film. I'm not a SF or SP hater, let me be clear on that. In fact, I really like SF and SP! But please next time give me a film in which Bond gets an assignment which he then carries out, saving us from some big evil and done.

    To achieve this, step one is to kick out Purvis and Wade.


    I'm getting crushed for this, but I don't think Purvis and Wade get enough credit. There's an interview out there with P+W recalling the second half of DAD, and how what we saw was virtually all of Lee Tamahori's vision and very little of theirs. The emotional drama stuff was Mendes' idea. He wanted the personal drama, and Purvis and Wade wrote a script based on his vision. In addition, if it weren't for those two, the final product for Spectre would have been much worse had EoN went with John Logan's much too outlandish ideas. Yes, there are plenty of writers out there that are miles better than P+W, but I think some of their efforts have been misinterpreted.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    They came up with the brother angle that wasn't Logan. For me that is one of the biggest mistakes of the series.

    If Craig doesn't return I think its safe to say reboot time and maybe they'll get SPECTRE and ESB right this time round.

    P&W and can be excused to a degree but they've done enough and like Mendes should never be let near Bond again.
  • Posts: 15,117
    They came with the brother angle, really? I am surprised. John Logan used the same brother angle in Gladiator and in Star Trek: Nemesis (although it was also a father and son angle).
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Indeed. Folks keep bringing in these overly dramatic ideas that have no place in a Bond film. In TWINE it was all about a daughter betraying her father and surrogate mother. In DAD we saw a son with daddy issues. In SF, Bond loses it when they mention the house he grow up in and M sees her good 'son' and her bad 'son' battle it out. SP throws all of that in the mix: Madeleine has daddy issues, Blofeld has daddy issues, Bond has his missing bro to reconnect with... There's this over-reliance on themes that usually work, if handled well, in drama films with an ambition to win Oscars, but which quickly become too much in a Bond film. I'm not a SF or SP hater, let me be clear on that. In fact, I really like SF and SP! But please next time give me a film in which Bond gets an assignment which he then carries out, saving us from some big evil and done.

    Oedipal conflicts were parts of Bond as early as the novels though, although on a more symbolic level. Many of the Bond villains, starting with Le Chiffre, are depraved, twisted father figure Bond has to overcome. It became far more explicit in the movies and far more literal and I am not excusing this, but it is not something that came out of the blue.
  • Posts: 1,680
    For everyone wanting to ESB & Spectre again, you better hope Craig come back. If he doesnt me thinks yes there will be a reboot but it wont include Waltz, Blofled & Spectre for that matter.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    For everyone wanting to ESB & Spectre again, you better hope Craig come back. If he doesnt me thinks yes there will be a reboot but it wont include Waltz, Blofled & Spectre for that matter.

    This is the sole reason why I want Craig to be replaced.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    For everyone wanting to ESB & Spectre again, you better hope Craig come back. If he doesnt me thinks yes there will be a reboot but it wont include Waltz, Blofled & Spectre for that matter.

    This is the sole reason why I want Craig to be replaced.

    The whole Waltz as ESB is tainted because of SPECTRE, I don't want him to appear in a new reboot straight away but they could tease SPECTRE into the story then reveal ESB later.

    I didn't want a reboot before SP and wanted DC to continue as long as he was comfortable but the way they dealt with having the rights to this aspect of the series I personally can't see any other way to continue Bond.

    You could say that they could pick up Bond 25 with DC's Bond just pursuing ESB in some way without acknowledging their distant past but seriously the script writers wouldn't let it be and something tells me DC would want to explore this relationship further in another entry and so would Waltz.

    It was enough in SP and continuing down this path would go a long way to tainting Craig's era big time. I know some don't like it but till SP with the misgivings of QOS this era was in high regard, now I think the events of SP have put this into question and continuing this thread would just continue to do harm, so a new Bond and rebooting is fine by me.
  • Posts: 15,117
    They didn't reintroduce the character so they can ditch it in a new reboot. Waltz may not remain Blofeld for whatever reason but Blofeld is coming back.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Ludovico wrote: »
    They didn't reintroduce the character so they can ditch it in a new reboot. Waltz may not remain Blofeld for whatever reason but Blofeld is coming back.

    I've no problem with a new Blofeld but they seriously hash it up with SP so rebooting and finding a new actor to play the part is fine by me.

    I don't imagine they will be dumping an aspect it's taken them years to acquire and any new universe will at some point include Blofeld but they don't need to rush it in one film like they did with SP.

    The whole retcon was done so clumsily and slap dash that trying to insert Blofeld into this time line was not convincing or healthy to Craig's era.

    It could have been done right but P&W just crowbarred it in then explained it with the brother nonsense and that tosh about scanning the ring.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Except the "brother nonsense" is nothing else than Blofeld's assumption and perception so it can be easily ignored. All they need to acknowledge is that Blofeld is in jail and that there is an organisation called Spectre. That's it.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Fair enough a standalone film for Craig to say goodbye, as I said like GF after FRWL.

    They acknowledge that SPECTRE and ESB exist, M can mention it and they can make light of his relationship with Swann being over and get on with an entry that shows all the strenghts of the Craig which SP certainly was not.

    Though I just don't see them doing this, especially if Waltz is to return, some lame like OHMSS scenario is the likely thing.

    Better for Craig to be replaced and reboot with possibly Fiennes back as M and no one else or just an entirely new cast, no origin just an established agent in the field being James Bond.
  • Posts: 1,680
    As soon as the news broke the other week that Barbara & EON were waiting an extra year for Craig is enough to convince me he is coming back along with Waltz.

    Their not gonna reboo
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    As soon as the news broke the other week that Barbara & EON were waiting an extra year for Craig is enough to convince me he is coming back along with Waltz.

    Their not gonna reboo
    There was no such news.
  • Posts: 1,680
    it can be interpreted based on them waiting for Craig to commit to his theatre & other work. Read between the lines.
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