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Dalton as Bond: TLD vs. LTK

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    when QoS came everyone loved to hate that film. Now people are respecting that more, everyone is hating Skyfall instead.
    :o3
    At one time or another I've disliked every Bond film for whatever silly transitory reason.
    Seriously, name one and I can dig into the trash bin of my memory & pull out the thinking on it. Give me time & I'll come to really appreciate SF... probably after I see SP (I'm expecting it to be fantastic from the stuff I'm seeing on it) I'll have this epiphany that SF was better than I thought.
    But no Bonds will ever eclipse Dalton's two for me- it just isn't in the cards.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,458
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    when QoS came everyone loved to hate that film. Now people are respecting that more, everyone is hating Skyfall instead.
    :o3
    At one time or another I've disliked every Bond film for whatever silly transitory reason.
    Seriously, name one and I can dig into the trash bin of my memory & pull out the thinking on it. Give me time & I'll come to really appreciate SF... probably after I see SP (I'm expecting it to be fantastic from the stuff I'm seeing on it) I'll have this epiphany that SF was better than I thought.
    But no Bonds will ever eclipse Dalton's two for me- it just isn't in the cards.

    TLD is one of my favourites. LTK not quite, but still good.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Funny I too like Dalton but think LTK is the better of his two films.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    DrGorner wrote: »
    Funny I too like Dalton but think LTK is the better of his two films.
    It's better as a film, but TLD is better as a Bond experience... IMO. But like I say, they are SO close for me.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DrGorner wrote: »
    Funny I too like Dalton but think LTK is the better of his two films.
    It's better as a film, but TLD is better as a Bond experience... IMO. But like I say, they are SO close for me.

    Agreed, Damn close for me too. TLD just gets it because of Barry & the Vienna scenes, but LTK runs it darn close and is so much better towards the end. Two very different experiences but both first class. I think only Connery (FRWL to GF) & Craig (CR to QoS) have delivered this kind of quality in immediate succession with so much difference in tone and feel.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,458
    bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DrGorner wrote: »
    Funny I too like Dalton but think LTK is the better of his two films.
    It's better as a film, but TLD is better as a Bond experience... IMO. But like I say, they are SO close for me.

    Agreed, Damn close for me too. TLD just gets it because of Barry & the Vienna scenes, but LTK runs it darn close and is so much better towards the end. Two very different experiences but both first class. I think only Connery (FRWL to GF) & Craig (CR to QoS) have delivered this kind of quality in immediate succession with so much difference in tone and feel.

    Don't forget Dr No. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DrGorner wrote: »
    Funny I too like Dalton but think LTK is the better of his two films.
    It's better as a film, but TLD is better as a Bond experience... IMO. But like I say, they are SO close for me.

    Agreed, Damn close for me too. TLD just gets it because of Barry & the Vienna scenes, but LTK runs it darn close and is so much better towards the end. Two very different experiences but both first class. I think only Connery (FRWL to GF) & Craig (CR to QoS) have delivered this kind of quality in immediate succession with so much difference in tone and feel.

    Don't forget Dr No. ;)

    Very true, but I was referring to quality with a change of tone as well. Arguably DN is similar in tone to FRWL & the excellent TB is similar in tone to GF. There is a tonal change between FRWL & GF & they are both excellent. Similarly there is a tonal change between CR & QoS (some may disagree that the latter is excellent but I love it) & the two Dalton films.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,723
    Whenever I hear @bondjames and @chrisisall defend a certain Bond film, I have a sudden urge to pop the film in the blu ray player and sit back and watch it! :D As for the Dalton films, I would put LTK just ahead, if only for the no-nonsense revenge angle and an out-of-this-world performance from the legend Timothy Dalton.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    bondjames wrote: »
    Very true, but I was referring to quality with a change of tone as well. Arguably DN is similar in tone to FRWL & the excellent TB is similar in tone to GF. There is a tonal change between FRWL & GF & they are both excellent. Similarly there is a tonal change between CR & QoS (some may disagree that the latter is excellent but I love it) & the two Dalton films.
    Excellent analysis there; I concur!
  • Ottofuse8Ottofuse8
    Posts: 832
    I do think that LTK is the better of the two, although both are great. Dalton is an average bond for me, but I like them all. I never really understood the criticism of LTK, i mean I see where people are coming from with it "not feeling like a bond film" or whatever, but bond films have always adjusted to cultural changes while remaining bond films, and I honestly just have to disagree. I think that LTK feels like a bond film, certainly more than QOS does.
  • ThighsOfXeniaThighsOfXenia
    Posts: 1,596
    TLD is better in nearly every way in my opinion. I think LTK's villain, Sanchez, might be the only thing it "does" better than its predecessor.

    Still really enjoy LTK, for what it's worth. I just don't rank the two cheek by jowl as most do, which is interesting, as they aren't that similar aside from their leading man.
  • Ottofuse8Ottofuse8
    Posts: 832
    If POAL was released, I would have have liked to have seen a sort of mix between the two. Who knows, it may have been Dalton's "definitive" performance.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited March 2015 Posts: 1,731
    ThighsOfXenia wrote: »
    TLD is better in nearly every way in my opinion. I think LTK's villain, Sanchez, might be the only thing it "does" better than its predecessor.

    Still really enjoy LTK, for what it's worth. I just don't rank the two cheek by jowl as most do, which is interesting, as they aren't that similar aside from their leading man.

    Glad to see there is still plenty of love for TLD :>

    The tone of LTK sits better with Dalton and it's probably the better of the two perfomances, but overall TLD still stands stronger as a film and story.

    TLD also contains his best scenes from a 007-purist point of view - Bratislava sniper scene & hotel room with Pushkin.
  • RisicoRisico
    Posts: 97
    Dalton is great in both, but I think TLD showcases more facets of his Bond that LTK. We get glimpses of smoldering anger with the death of Saunders, he has real tenderness for Kara, he has a very in-character relationship with M that involves moments of warmth, professional respect, terse disagreement over Pushkin's motives and the traditional comic irritation. We also see him *enjoying* elements of his job and detesting others, which is classic Fleming. In LTK, on the other hand, we mostly get Dalton's Bond as a seething, rage filled avenger. I really don't see much of Fleming's Bond is LTK; it's Bond being utterly unprofessional, totally selfish and unable to see the bigger picture; and what's more, it's not as if he's going after Blofeld for the murder of Tracy, it's just vaguely inferred that he's projecting his rage about Tracy's killing onto Della's murder. While Sanchez's organisation certainly deserves to be pulled down, I really don't think Fleming's Bond would have gone on the rampage like that in a million years - and he certainly wouldn't have got his Double-O status back! But Dalton sells it brilliantly.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    Risico wrote: »
    Dalton is great in both, but I think TLD showcases more facets of his Bond that LTK. We get glimpses of smoldering anger with the death of Saunders, he has real tenderness for Kara, he has a very in-character relationship with M that involves moments of warmth, professional respect, terse disagreement over Pushkin's motives and the traditional comic irritation. We also see him *enjoying* elements of his job and detesting others, which is classic Fleming. In LTK, on the other hand, we mostly get Dalton's Bond as a seething, rage filled avenger. I really don't see much of Fleming's Bond is LTK; it's Bond being utterly unprofessional, totally selfish and unable to see the bigger picture; and what's more, it's not as if he's going after Blofeld for the murder of Tracy, it's just vaguely inferred that he's projecting his rage about Tracy's killing onto Della's murder. While Sanchez's organisation certainly deserves to be pulled down, I really don't think Fleming's Bond would have gone on the rampage like that in a million years - and he certainly wouldn't have got his Double-O status back! But Dalton sells it brilliantly.

    Well said
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Risico wrote: »
    Dalton is great in both, but I think TLD showcases more facets of his Bond that LTK. We get glimpses of smoldering anger with the death of Saunders, he has real tenderness for Kara, he has a very in-character relationship with M that involves moments of warmth, professional respect, terse disagreement over Pushkin's motives and the traditional comic irritation. We also see him *enjoying* elements of his job and detesting others, which is classic Fleming. In LTK, on the other hand, we mostly get Dalton's Bond as a seething, rage filled avenger. I really don't see much of Fleming's Bond is LTK; it's Bond being utterly unprofessional, totally selfish and unable to see the bigger picture; and what's more, it's not as if he's going after Blofeld for the murder of Tracy, it's just vaguely inferred that he's projecting his rage about Tracy's killing onto Della's murder. While Sanchez's organisation certainly deserves to be pulled down, I really don't think Fleming's Bond would have gone on the rampage like that in a million years - and he certainly wouldn't have got his Double-O status back! But Dalton sells it brilliantly.

    An excellent point that I had not noticed before. That is what's great about LTK - there are new things to notice every time one watches it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Risico wrote: »
    But Dalton sells it brilliantly.
    Yes, he does, and that's what it's all about for me. His Bond has a fuse that, when lit, just doesn't go out. Not 100% Fleming, but damn entertaining.
  • ThighsOfXeniaThighsOfXenia
    Posts: 1,596
    I think Dalton's performances are relatively of equal quality, but I give the nod to TLD because he shows more range and nuance. LTK features a strong performance, but it's primarily one-note: Bond on a rampage.

    And if you care about that sort of thing (I don't particularly, when it comes to the films): His performance in TLD is more "Flemingesque."
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    when QoS came everyone loved to hate that film. Now people are respecting that more, everyone is hating Skyfall instead.
    :o3
    At one time or another I've disliked every Bond film for whatever silly transitory reason.
    Seriously, name one and I can dig into the trash bin of my memory & pull out the thinking on it. Give me time & I'll come to really appreciate SF... probably after I see SP (I'm expecting it to be fantastic from the stuff I'm seeing on it) I'll have this epiphany that SF was better than I thought.
    But no Bonds will ever eclipse Dalton's two for me- it just isn't in the cards.

    Yes, the snippets of SP I'm picking up on all look and sound fantastic. I'm really optimistic. I think though that if it's as good as I'm hoping it will be, then it'll only put SF further into the shade.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,458
    Funnily enough I prefer Dalton of LTK. I think that is a more accurate example of his bond. TLD Dalton feels more like he's trying to ease himself in gently whereas LTK Dalton doesn't let up until after the climax.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dalton was equally grand in both films. One may argue about other elements being better or worse in TLD/LTK, but not Timothy s performance. Hats off to most of it.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,458
    I didn't say it was worse, I prefer TLD as a film. TLD feels like he's slowly settling in and LTK he is like an animal.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    TLD-Timothy Looks Dapper
    LTK-Let Timothy Kill
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    LTK would have been much better without the Q in the field, all that gadgets in his bag sequence in the hotel room is terrible and betrays the mood of the film. I would have much preferred Bond trying to take out Sanchez using his wits rather than a gadgets provided by some pensioner on vacation.

    LTK has some genuine classic moments but it also has some downright embarrassing moments and I'll take all the so called awful moments in SF over having Q in the field.

    Although no we accept that because it's old cosy Bond with gadgets and the Bond theme blaring we are in comfortable territory here whether it doesn't make sense within the narrative of the film. Q being in the film just undermined Bond's revenge element and was one of the most blatant crow barred moments of the series.

    TLD is undoubtedly of a much more even tone and although feeling like a Moore film retooled works better with the exception of some uncomfortable one liner which poor old Tim just can't sell.

    He's a great Bond and definitely bought the Fleming back but his films just didn't take advantage of his portrayal, yes it was grittier but it couldn't let go of the tick the box moments and although they work in TLD when they try to make it work in the context of a revenge story it just jars.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Shardlake wrote: »
    yes it was grittier but it couldn't let go of the tick the box moments and although they work in TLD when they try to make it work in the context of a revenge story it just jars.
    *passes Shard a Martini* Here dude, just enjoy the flick.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    yes it was grittier but it couldn't let go of the tick the box moments and although they work in TLD when they try to make it work in the context of a revenge story it just jars.
    *passes Shard a Martini* Here dude, just enjoy the flick.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    yes it was grittier but it couldn't let go of the tick the box moments and although they work in TLD when they try to make it work in the context of a revenge story it just jars.
    *passes Shard a Martini* Here dude, just enjoy the flick.

    Sorry my rose tinted specs are in the repair shop at the moment.



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2015 Posts: 17,835
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Sorry my rose tinted specs are in the repair shop at the moment.
    Judging by the multiple quotes I understand.
    :)>-
  • GHettoblasterGHettoblaster New York, USA
    Posts: 15
    It's hard to say if I enjoyed his performance more in License To Kill because I thought it was a considerable step down from The Living Daylights. I don't think Dalton made LTK bad so I can't knock his performance but I felt that movie lacked a lot. The Living Daylights was my favorite of the two so I'll have to go with that.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    I like the Q scenes in LTK. And didn't Desmond say very nice things about Tim? Like he was the best Bond or something. There was genuine warmth there.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Desmond said the most glowing stuff about Pierce, if memory serves.
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