TWINE: Did Brosnan offer a definitive characterisation of 007?

JimThompson45

BAIN123 wrote:

Yes he did :D

I disagree. I don't think people outside of Bond enthusiasts/hobbiers really recall one of the Brosnan movies when asked about Bond. Connery, Moore, and Craig all seem to have done films where people outside of folks who really follow the character can recall one of their films. Brosnan doesn't yet seem to have that going for him. Sadly, I think, neither does Dalton.

Major_Boothroyd

Do people really consider TWINE inferior to DAD? I always thought it was generally considered the other way around. Even to the casual Bond viewer. I prefer TND overall of Brosnan's films. But I think that Brosnan's performance in TWINE is probably his best, especially his scenes with Elektra and Renard. You raise good points about his complicated relationship (for a bond film) with women. And it taps into the similar harsh relationships that Fleming did (Vesper, Tracy) but there is no way I'd call it definitive. TWINE's problem is it blends into the bond cannon rather than standing out and Brosnan's portrayal throughout his tenure is a bit inconsistent.

BAIN123

I remember @TheLordFlasheart gave a good assessment of Brosnan's TWINE performance. When he is "being" Bond he is great but when he is "trying" its laughable.

As I've said before I do like the defiant "I never miss" line and the way he lowers the gun. There's a moment I can say "that's Bond".

Getafix

BAIN123 wrote:

i think he was better in TND and DAD personally (though, like GE, he had some good moments).

Oh yeah. Well TND is definitely his least bad performance. He's more relaxed than in GE and isn't trying to 'act' like in TWINE. Honestly don't understand what any one sees in DAD. Everything about it, including Brosnan's performance is utterly dire.

JimThompson45

BAIN123 wrote:

I remember @TheLordFlasheart gave a good assessment of Brosnan's TWINE performance. When he is "being" Bond he is great but when he is "trying" its laughable.

As I've said before I do like the defiant "I never miss" line and the way he lowers the gun. There's a moment I can say "that's Bond".

I think all this has got me in the mood to go back and give the Bronsan Bond movies (particularly those middle two) another bash. :)

BAIN123

Getafix wrote:

BAIN123 wrote:

i think he was better in TND and DAD personally (though, like GE, he had some good moments).

Oh yeah. Well TND is definitely his least bad performance. He's more relaxed than in GE and isn't trying to 'act' like in TWINE. Honestly don't understand what any one sees in DAD. Everything about it, including Brosnan's performance is utterly dire.

I thought he was pretty good in DAD ("then you and I have something in common", "just survivng Mr Chang...just surviving", "the coldest weapon of all", "Maybe its time you let me get on with my job"). Though he did have some mis-steps (not as bad as Halle Berry though).

Getafix

JimThompson45 wrote:

BAIN123 wrote:

I remember @TheLordFlasheart gave a good assessment of Brosnan's TWINE performance. When he is "being" Bond he is great but when he is "trying" its laughable.

As I've said before I do like the defiant "I never miss" line and the way he lowers the gun. There's a moment I can say "that's Bond".

I think all this has got me in the mood to go back and give the Bronsan Bond movies (particularly those middle two) another bash. :)

Do you mean 'bash' as in viewing or as in give them a good kicking? To do the latter there's no need to put yourself through the former. You can avoid a whole load of pain (face) by just telling us how bad they are right here and now.

TheWizardOfIce

JimThompson45 wrote:

BAIN123 wrote:

Yes he did :D

I disagree. I don't think people outside of Bond enthusiasts/hobbiers really recall one of the Brosnan movies when asked about Bond. Connery, Moore, and Craig all seem to have done films where people outside of folks who really follow the character can recall one of their films. Brosnan doesn't yet seem to have that going for him. Sadly, I think, neither does Dalton.

I think you do him a slight disservice. GE was and is pretty big with the general public. Ask the casual viewer to name a Bond film and they would say GE about 6th or 7th after GF, TSWLM, CR, obviously SF now, and maybe a few other Rog and Sean films.
They would certainly say it before any Dalton film, OHMSS, QOS and half of Rogers.

JimThompson45

"Bash" meaning I want to give them a go again. Couple of things:

1. I'm the Supreme Allied Commander of my Army of One. While I like listening to other people's perspectives on occasion, if I enjoy something, that's quite enough for me.

2. I'm not the Brosnan hater a lot of people here seem to be. While I don't think his Bond movies were the most enjoyable or entertaining in the series, neither do I find his performances wince-inducing. I think he did a solid job with the role. The only bad thing I can say about his performances is that I think he was sometimes trying too hard to be "cool" in the role, and I think that occasionally got in his way.

JimThompson45

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

I think you do him a slight disservice. GE was and is pretty big with the general public. Ask the casual viewer to name a Bond film and they would say GE about 6th or 7th after GF, TSWLM, CR, obviously SF now, and maybe a few other Rog and Sean films.
They would certainly say it before any Dalton film, OHMSS, QOS and half of Rogers.

Perhaps. As you say, if you give them enough time, perhaps a non-enthusiast would get to Goldeneye -- but I certainly don't think it would be amongst their first responses.

ElliotCarver

To say something positive about Bros, he had the best gun barrel and the best "Bond. James Bond.".

JimThompson45

ElliotCarver wrote:

To say something positive about Bros, he had the best gun barrel and the best "Bond. James Bond.".

I find neither of those to be "true", but I still think he played Bond all right.

doubleoego

Pierce2Daniel wrote:

You may recall a while ago I wrote a retrospective of DAD in light of its 10th anniversary. You can find it here:
http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/4688/another-anniversary-were-forgetting-has-the-time-come-to-finally-celebrate-dad/p4#Item_117

Having watched the film again, I became more curious about exploring Pierce Brosnan’s other outings as 007. So I recently re-watched the TWINE and was very impressed with what I saw overall. The one overwhelming factor I noticed when watching the film was quite how good Pierce was in the movie. It all made me begin to wonder whether Brosnan in fact offered the most definitive version of the character in that film.

Firstly, the actual movie itself is deeply underrated and I for one am shocked that we live on a planet where the below-par DAD is considered superior to TWINE. I mean, really? Surely now in a post-reboot/Daniel Craig-era we can finally appreciate TWINE as the forgotten and disregarded gem of the franchise.

The opening of the movie is tremendous, the scene in the Swiss bank is Bondian-to-the-max, but in particular Brosnan really displays a dark tinge to the character in those early moments. The way he coldly executes the men followed by that close-up snarl before grabbing the Banker by the scruff of the neck and forcing him to count to three at gunpoint. It’s a dark scene, plagued with black humour and works well because Pierce plays it’s so straight. But it’s here we get the first revelation towards a more gritty realistic take on the character. He’s a spy and he kills people, it’s all very glamorous but also extremely dangerous. The boat chase is a perfect end to a fantastic pre-title sequence (I think the best), there’s just something about seeing those boats race across the Thames. What is most exhilarating is the fact that we can actually see that it is Pierce in the boat, it really gives a heightened sense of danger and excitement to see our leading man actually taking part in the action. The Thames chase is really the statement piece of the movie and it works well in really establishing a “And We’re Back” feeling to the Bond world. It’s high-class, sexy and audacious, everything Bond should be.
Garbage’s title song is also on-point, but let down by Kleinman’s titles which just seem to slowly descend into a techno-coloured mess. His lowest point I dare say. So does TWINE live up to the promise it generates in its opening gambit? In short, yes.

Why? Well, that’s easy to answer: the central dynamic between Bond and Elektra is really what makes this film tick. Brosnan maintains the darker grittier approach he displayed in the title sequence throughout the movie, but he marries it with his suave sophisticated persona that he has become so associated with. When I see him seduce the Doctor (wearing some rather lovely underwear) I really believe that she wants to sleep with him, Brosnan literally oozes with charisma and has always handled this aspect of Bond’s character with ease. It is in the TWINE that he really brings the danger back to Bond having already demonstrated how well he can handle the lighter moments. It is then the Elektra relationship that really gives him the chance to shine and build upon the character.

While TWINE is a Bond film with all the trimmings, it is after all front-loaded with a large amount of absurd gadgets, girls, cars and exotic locales; but overall it feels less a servant to these elements than previous instalments. What Michael Apted has done is essentially make a more character-driven film which really lets Brosnan and Sophie Marceau fill the screen with a resounding amount of pathos. It’s their odd macabre relationship that keeps you hooked, the pair’s fling never feels forced and instead we are greeted with this delightfully interplay between the two which creates this rather twisted and interesting relationship. It’s made even more satisfying that Elektra is later revealed as the film’s villain, which boils down to that fantastic torture scene finale (one of the best scenes in any Bond film in my opinion). The twist is a really underrated moment in the film, which has been made more prevalent thanks to The Dark Knight Rises essentially ripping it off (Bane and Talia a poor man’s Renard and Elektra). Brosnan is at his best when he’s going toe-to-toe with Marceau, and the best scenes in the film feature the pair of them.

There is also a great vulnerability on show in Pierce’s Bond here. We see him really get hurt and take a beating. Often praise is lauded on Craig’s portrayal on drawing on this aspect, but Brosnan did it first and just as well. We know Bond is in a bad way because of his shoulder but Apted also opens him up psychologically by allowing Elektra to explore 007’s persona that little bit more than we are used to. Elektra break him down in such a way that no other woman before has, not even Tracy and she exploits him. Does Bond love her? I think so, and Elektra plays on this, almost taunting him for being so foolish.

The second act of the film doesn’t let off either , here Bond actually does some spying (something Roger Moore forgot to do) and the Kazakhstan segment of the film really cements the darker grittier Bond that Brosnan and Apted have carved. His first meeting with Renard is brooding and intense, I love the line “Cold-blooded murder is a filthy business” all while screwing on a silencer. Brosnan does, on occasion, have a tendency to slip slightly into the hammy, his reaction to Renard’s “No point in living...” is overacting at its best. So Brosnan’s acting can be slightly ‘loud’ at times, but if anything Pierce works better in those quieter moments when he doesn’t have to really make a case that he is ‘acting’ (think back to that great moment in the jacket bubble where Electra is having a panic attach or the final moment where he is holding her at gunpoint – quieter and more intense moments where he really shines).

Marceauis really stunning, she is truly the most beautiful Bond girl there has ever been. She is seamless at portraying both sides of Electra’s character and its undeniable that her role is the best part written for a woman in a Bond film to date. Everything to her hair, to jewellery to costume design is impeccable and all add to creating this wonderful exotic beauty who is very easy to fall in love with. Robert Carylise is also great, and the central premise of his character is pure Bond villainy at its best – a baddie who feels no pain- excellent. It’s a neat touch how he still holds mi6 responsible for his soon-to-be death, opposed to the bullet-in-the-brain merely being a jumping off point in carving a villainous characture. A lot has been said about Denise Richards, so I may loose credibility when I say that I’m really not that fussed about her. It’s not that Christmas really adds to the film, but she hardly detracts from it either. I think she works and is perfectly serviceable to the story.

The action is slightly excessive at points, and occasionally does feel rather staged. However, Brosnan is very good at it at and seeing him in action really adds to the excitement of the piece. Furthermore, the film is headed and tailed by two fine actions sequences, the submarine finale for me is up with some of the best, its vertigo-inducing at the same time as being pulse-pounding when delivering thrills. You can feel Apted’s documentarian soul coming across in the execution of the story, and the way it subtly deals with the politics of the oil world. Furthermore the photography of the movie is stunning, Adrian Biddle gives the film a really rustic lived-in feel, furthermore the sets are great with Elektra’s bedroom being a particularly stand-out. The only thing I really didn’t like where the last 2 minutes, M is apparently safe and sound in Scotland and Bond is having ‘Christmas in Turkey’ – talk about resorting to formula. It’s almost a default /screensaver ending and undoes a lot of the good work the film has done up to that point.

So in sum up, TWINE delivers all the Bond thrills and spills you have come to expect but with an added dimension of character and pathos. The central relationship between Bond and Elektra is really makes this film work. The movie also harnesses a very complete and intriguing revelation into the character’s persona, as it is here 007 is vulnerable and human but still as charismatic and suave as ever. This is made even more interesting by the darker and tougher shade displayed by the character throughout the movie.

The TWINE really does feel like the watershed before the DC era, it just seems a shame the more fantastical DAD strayed away from this path. So did Brosnan offer a definitive characterisation of 007? Well it may be a slightly bold claim, but at least the film had the guts to not rely and fall back on the forumla so readily and was willing to show those shades of grey in the character. What do we think?

identigraph

Brosnan did a good job, GE and TND are decent, TWINE is ok and DAD is rather stinky and rancid. I'm not really sure how his films are felt about with the general public but he seemed pretty popular at the time. Other than DAD there was nothing terrible about his films yet nothing outstanding either.

Getafix

It's a gut thing I guess. Broz never once convinced me as Bond. Sean, Rog and Tim all nailed it pretty early on - Sean and Tim from day one arguably. In DC I feel that I get flashes of Bond, but also a lot of Terminator/Superman.

JimThompson45

identigraph wrote:

Brosnan did a good job, GE and TND are decent, TWINE is ok and DAD is rather stinky and rancid. I'm not really sure how his films are felt about with the general public but he seemed pretty popular at the time. Other than DAD there was nothing terrible about his films yet nothing outstanding either.

Oh, his films were very popular when they came out, but they don't seem to have shown themselves to be especially memorable.

Anyway, that's my perception.

RC7

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

I think you do him a slight disservice. GE was and is pretty big with the general public.

I agree. Whatever you make GE, I would argue that it is one of the most famous. I would argue that amongst non-fans the films they would recall are GF, DAF, LALD, GE and CR.

Of the older films I think it's the theme tunes they recall before the film. Hence, I reckon a lot of non fans would recall AVTAK before FRWL.

identigraph

I know a lot of people who aren't big fans but they love GE, so I think it is fairly well known to the masses!

Getafix

I have to admit that as much as I despise the film, GE does seem to have entered into the list of best known titles. I think it has something to do with the wait after LTK and that fact that it revived what almost seemed like a dead series (for that at least, I suppose I am grateful).

JimThompson45

RC7 wrote:

I agree. Whatever you make GE, I would argue that it is one of the most famous. I would argue that amongst non-fans the films they would recall are GF, DAF, LALD, GE and CR.

Admittedly I'm going of my perception and limited expeience, but I don't find the flks I talk to (and there have been quite a few of them since this last movie) ever mention one of Mr. Brosnan's films when they talk to me about Bond. They do mention some of Mr. Connery's, Mr. Moore's, and Mr. Craig's.

RC7

Getafix wrote:

I have to admit that as much as I despise the film, GE does seem to have entered into the list of best known titles. I think it has something to do with the wait after LTK and that fact that it revived what almost seemed like a dead series (for that at least, I suppose I am grateful).

I would say this is correct. I think the fact the game was an unprecedented success also contributed to it's status. Particularly among a specific demographic. I know for some of the younger members the game is dismissed but it's impact can not be discounted. It was enormous.

JimThompson45

RC7 wrote:

[I think the fact the game was an unprecedented success also contributed to it's status. Particularly among a specific demographic. I know for some of the younger members the game is dismissed but it's impact can not be discounted. It was enormous.

I very much agree with that. That game was huge!

Getafix

Oh yeah, I forget about the game.

BAIN123

Getafix wrote:

Oh yeah, I forget about the game.

Only an "oldie" could forget about that game ;)

For me the "wait" was never an issue.

Getafix

I think I played it once. A friend's kid brother had it. Generational thing I think. Not that I mind the games, it's just the idea that a film is remembered because of that rather than being a decent movie.

thelordflasheart

BAIN123 wrote:

I remember @TheLordFlasheart gave a good assessment of Brosnan's TWINE performance. When he is "being" Bond he is great but when he is "trying" its laughable.

As I've said before I do like the defiant "I never miss" line and the way he lowers the gun. There's a moment I can say "that's Bond".

If there are two criticisms of Brosnan that seem true to me (to varying degrees in his different films) they would be a) I often feel like I'm watching someone *playing* Bond instead of *being* Bond and b) Brosnan often gives the most obvious line readings in his scenes which makes everything feel kind of...standard. Or adequate.

Now, I do like Brosnan and he's arguably the most charming of all the Bonds - but as I used to say about Moore when I was a kid being charming isn't the same as giving a performance. I can see why everyone loves Moore and Brosnan due to their charm, but why can't we have a manly, three-dimensional, interesting take on the character at the same time?

The funny thing is that Brosnan can come off well in some scenes but in other scenes he's trying so hard that the performance is forced - even when doing something as simple as opening the yacht door in GE. If you have to try to be cool, then you aren't. And I think that he wanted so desperately to impress as Bond - since he was 12 years old! - that anytime he was given a chance to "act" he thought that he had to act the sh!t out of a scene. And from that place we get the famous "confronting Elektra" scene.

I think that Brosnan knew that he was a TV actor at heart and not a movie star and that made him try too hard, and he didn't have the acting chops/presence/confidence to back it up. I personally feel that everyone who says Brosnan could have given an awesome performance as Bond if he wasn't held back by the scripts should just watch TWINE. He WAS given chances to "act" and was found wanting.

Now, I do like him and am eternally grateful for "saving" the franchise but a good actor he was not (at least in the Bond series). Adequate, yes. Enjoyable, yes. But definitely limited.

JimThompson45

Getafix wrote:

I think I played it once. A friend's kid brother had it. Generational thing I think. Not that I mind the games, it's just the idea that a film is remembered because of that rather than being a decent movie.

Game has actually been reworked and released again -- although this time Daniel Craig's Bond is the one in the game.

BAIN123

Getafix wrote:

I think I played it once. A friend's kid brother had it. Generational thing I think. Not that I mind the games, it's just the idea that a film is remembered because of that rather than being a decent movie.

I do understand what you mean. Just browsing YouTube it seems that a lot of people of my generation remember Ge because of the game. I try not to.

It's been quite a while since I played the game (far longer than it's been since I watched the film).

JimThompson45

The game had a feature where players could play against one another in an arena style shootout. That was a lot of it's draw at the time.

BAIN123

Hmm...multiplayer :D

I can't tell you the number of hrs I clocked up playing that.