TWINE: Did Brosnan offer a definitive characterisation of 007?

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  • Posts: 3,327
    Brosnan was more cinema Bond. Nothing wrong with that imo.

    Unlike lots of people on here I don't think every Bond has to be close to Fleming. I like having variety.

    Each to their own. To me Bond is Fleming, and Fleming is Bond. The two are inseperable. The Cubby incarnation gradually transformed Fleming's introvert character into the know-it-all, one-line spouting, rather smug, cinematic version as the movies went on.

    But yes, the franchise probably would never had survived if all 23 films focused purely on the Fleming Bond. Audiences were not prepared for such a Bond in 1989, and I doubt they would have been in the 70's either.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 3,327
    BAIN123 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    This is harsh and I hate reading this...but part of me agrees with you.
    Sorry for bringing this to your attention, Bain. Sometimes the truth hurts.For what its worth, I actually don't mind old Brozza outside of Bond. He always comes across as a nice guy in interviews I've seen. I just never got the impression he wanted to play Bond as Fleming wrote him.
    In fairness I'm not sure Moore did either (despite what he might have said about taking his inspiration from a line in the book about Bond not liking killing but taking pride in doing it well).When reading/listening to Fleming Moore is still the actor I picture least in my head. At least Brosnan has the dark/handsome looks and stern facial expressions.

    I agree, although when Moore ocassionally played Bond serious (FYEO, the centrifuge scene in MR) he was far more convincing than Brozza was. You never got the impression Moore was acting, like Brozza appeared to be doing. When Moore wanted to play Bond straight, he could suddenly hit the note perfectly, subtle and understated, like Fleming's character.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Well Connery was never the TRUE embodiment of Fleming's Bond (Fleming didn't even like him initially) he has become accepted as the "Best Bond". In regard to Moore, while he gives an otherwise good performance in MWTGG personally I felt he wasn't all that convincing when he was beating Andrea. His delivery of the line "and I WANT HIM THERE" doesn't quite work for me. Also, I don't recall Fleming's Bond actually HITTING a woman.I think he's better in FYEO.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 12,837
    I dunno if I'm the only one but I think FYEO is a bit overrated on here. It's good, don't get me wrong, but I think lots of people rate it as Moore's best just because it's (overall) more serious. It gave Blofeld a crap death and some of the action isn't great, so I don't rate it that highly. Even though Glen is my favourite Bond director.

    I prefer TSWLM, OP and LALD.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    I dunno if I'm the only one but I think FYEO is a bit overrated on here.
    I agree to the point that I actually like TMWTGG more.
  • Posts: 3,327
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Well Connery was never the TRUE embodiment of Fleming's Bond (Fleming didn't even like him initially) he has become accepted as the "Best Bond". In regard to Moore, while he gives an otherwise good performance in MWTGG personally I felt he wasn't all that convincing when he was beating Andrea. His delivery of the line "and I WANT HIM THERE" doesn't quite work for me. Also, I don't recall Fleming's Bond actually HITTING a woman.I think he's better in FYEO.
    To me, Moore's best performance is in the centrifuge scene. This is the one moment where I really bought into believing he could be Fleming's Bond - from the moment he nervously steps into the machine, to the moment he staggers back out, completely dishevelled.

    Connery embodied quite a lot of Fleming's character in his first 2 movies. From GF onwards the cinematic version was born.

  • chrisisall wrote:
    I dunno if I'm the only one but I think FYEO is a bit overrated on here.
    I agree to the point that I actually like TMWTGG more.

    I'm not sure if I like TMWTGG more or not, I haven't seen it in a while and I can't remember my ranking.

    Thinking about it now though TMWTGG might have more going for it. Better villian, cooler action and just more exicting and memorable.
  • Posts: 3,327
    chrisisall wrote:
    I dunno if I'm the only one but I think FYEO is a bit overrated on here.
    I agree to the point that I actually like TMWTGG more.

    I agree with both of you. I fnd FYEO extremely overrated, and actually find TMWTGG one of Moore's best films.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Group hug!
  • Posts: 3,327
    chrisisall wrote:
    Group hug!
    I'm feeling the love in this thread right now......

    :)>-
  • Posts: 161
    Getafix wrote:
    It's a gut thing I guess. Broz never once convinced me as Bond. Sean, Rog and Tim all nailed it pretty early on - Sean and Tim from day one arguably. In DC I feel that I get flashes of Bond, but also a lot of Terminator/Superman.

    Disagree with the comment on Craig, i think he gives Bond a modern spin maybe not to you're taste.

    I agree with Broz comment. When you walk out of the Cinema you want to be Bond but seen Brosnan's Bond i ended up hating Bond rather wanting to be him. He just came across like a sleazy drunken uncle at a wedding (Moore was the same but he had a touch of class about it) rather then a ice cool secret agent like Connery or Craig did. Plus his films stink and digressed Bond rather then the make him leader of the pack (Mission impossible films and Bourne movies were making Brosnan films look old hat) plus he's not much cop as a actor.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    lahaine wrote:
    Brosnan's Bond i ended up hating Bond rather wanting to be him. He just came across like a sleazy drunken uncle at a wedding (Moore was the same but he had a touch of class about it) rather then a ice cool secret agent like Connery or Craig did. Plus his films stink
    Whoah, the love is gone!
    @-)
  • Posts: 161
    chrisisall wrote:
    lahaine wrote:
    Brosnan's Bond i ended up hating Bond rather wanting to be him. He just came across like a sleazy drunken uncle at a wedding (Moore was the same but he had a touch of class about it) rather then a ice cool secret agent like Connery or Craig did. Plus his films stink
    Whoah, the love is gone!
    @-)

    Ah i'm back on board thank Mr. Craig ;)
  • lahaine wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    It's a gut thing I guess. Broz never once convinced me as Bond. Sean, Rog and Tim all nailed it pretty early on - Sean and Tim from day one arguably. In DC I feel that I get flashes of Bond, but also a lot of Terminator/Superman.

    Disagree with the comment on Craig, i think he gives Bond a modern spin maybe not to you're taste.

    I agree with Broz comment. When you walk out of the Cinema you want to be Bond but seen Brosnan's Bond i ended up hating Bond rather wanting to be him. He just came across like a sleazy drunken uncle at a wedding (Moore was the same but he had a touch of class about it) rather then a ice cool secret agent like Connery or Craig did. Plus his films stink and digressed Bond rather then the make him leader of the pack (Mission impossible films and Bourne movies were making Brosnan films look old hat) plus he's not much cop as a actor.

    Weren't you the one who said Craig made Bond cool again because the critics like him?

    Anyway the Bourne films weren't even out while Brosnan was Bond and Mission Impossible is just as OTT as any of the Brosnan films.
  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Well Connery was never the TRUE embodiment of Fleming's Bond (Fleming didn't even like him initially) he has become accepted as the "Best Bond". In regard to Moore, while he gives an otherwise good performance in MWTGG personally I felt he wasn't all that convincing when he was beating Andrea. His delivery of the line "and I WANT HIM THERE" doesn't quite work for me. Also, I don't recall Fleming's Bond actually HITTING a woman.I think he's better in FYEO.
    To me, Moore's best performance is in the centrifuge scene. This is the one moment where I really bought into believing he could be Fleming's Bond - from the moment he nervously steps into the machine, to the moment he staggers back out, completely dishevelled.

    Connery embodied quite a lot of Fleming's character in his first 2 movies. From GF onwards the cinematic version was born.

    I think his best performance as Bond overall is FYEO.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    It might be regarded by some Pierce fans has his definitive take but definitive full stop is this some kind of joke?

    TWINE is an uneven mess of a film, the opening sequence with the Banker is Pierce's finest moment as 007 but all that hard work is undone by that over long ludicrous boat chase that goes on forever. It can't decide what tone it wants to be, it wants to be the modern successor to OHMSS but can't shake off the ludicrous model that was well and truly established in the Moore years but with a great deal more panache.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,298
    Like Moore, Brosnan saved the franchise. He will always deserve credit for that.
  • Shardlake wrote:
    It might be regarded by some Pierce fans has his definitive take but definitive full stop is this some kind of joke?

    TWINE is an uneven mess of a film, the opening sequence with the Banker is Pierce's finest moment as 007 but all that hard work is undone by that over long ludicrous boat chase that goes on forever. It can't decide what tone it wants to be, it wants to be the modern successor to OHMSS but can't shake off the ludicrous model that was well and truly established in the Moore years but with a great deal more panache.

    I can appreciate your comments about how the film may be perceived as uneven, but I wouldn't describe it that way. The film does rely on formula that is undeniable, it would appear that CR was the first film to really throw that out of the window and go forth as if no Bond film ever existed beforehand. Here instead we are greeted with all the familiar trappings of the Bond formula, but the depth added to the characterisation of Bond blended in with his odd macabre relationship with the girl really elevate the material above the simple trappings of a Bond film.
  • Posts: 161
    lahaine wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    It's a gut thing I guess. Broz never once convinced me as Bond. Sean, Rog and Tim all nailed it pretty early on - Sean and Tim from day one arguably. In DC I feel that I get flashes of Bond, but also a lot of Terminator/Superman.

    Disagree with the comment on Craig, i think he gives Bond a modern spin maybe not to you're taste.

    I agree with Broz comment. When you walk out of the Cinema you want to be Bond but seen Brosnan's Bond i ended up hating Bond rather wanting to be him. He just came across like a sleazy drunken uncle at a wedding (Moore was the same but he had a touch of class about it) rather then a ice cool secret agent like Connery or Craig did. Plus his films stink and digressed Bond rather then the make him leader of the pack (Mission impossible films and Bourne movies were making Brosnan films look old hat) plus he's not much cop as a actor.

    Weren't you the one who said Craig made Bond cool again because the critics like him?

    Anyway the Bourne films weren't even out while Brosnan was Bond and Mission Impossible is just as OTT as any of the Brosnan films.

    But they are better films you don't agree?
  • Posts: 161
    echo wrote:
    Like Moore, Brosnan saved the franchise. He will always deserve credit for that.

    They kept it ticking over more like.
  • Posts: 202
    doubleoego wrote:
    MrBrown wrote:

    They should bring Marceau back to the series.

    Um, have you seen her lately? She hasn't exactly aged that well.

    645675-www_bruce_juice_com_1347845438.jpg


    Looks fine to me. And major glamour magazines still don't mind putting her on the front cover.

  • Shardlake wrote:
    It might be regarded by some Pierce fans has his definitive take but definitive full stop is this some kind of joke?

    TWINE is an uneven mess of a film, the opening sequence with the Banker is Pierce's finest moment as 007 but all that hard work is undone by that over long ludicrous boat chase that goes on forever. It can't decide what tone it wants to be, it wants to be the modern successor to OHMSS but can't shake off the ludicrous model that was well and truly established in the Moore years but with a great deal more panache.

    I can appreciate your comments about how the film may be perceived as uneven, but I wouldn't describe it that way. The film does rely on formula that is undeniable, it would appear that CR was the first film to really throw that out of the window and go forth as if no Bond film ever existed beforehand. Here instead we are greeted with all the familiar trappings of the Bond formula, but the depth added to the characterisation of Bond blended in with his odd macabre relationship with the girl really elevate the material above the simple trappings of a Bond film.

    Shardlake brings up an interesting point. It's not just what the film - ANY film - is trying to do, but how well it's doing it.

    When I was a kid, I loved YOLT. The volcano base, the exoticness of Japan (I was raised in a very whitebread place), the action. But then when I got older it rapidly fell down my rankings. But why?

    When I was younger the IDEA of a film - or story, or character, or relationship - was what was most important to me. There were certain things that I wanted to see in a film and if I did then I was happy. But as I got older and saw a LOT more films then I had seen every type of location, character, etc. So it wasn't just seeing a certain thing, it had to be done well. And that's where YOLT fell down for me. Because the execution - the pacing, the performances, the action - weren't as well done as they could be. I mean, just compare it to OHMSS which followed just a short time later.

    So when I think of TWINE I think of an interesting, failed experiment. There are a lot of good ideas there but they weren't executed very well (especially Brosnan's performance and the pacing). But based on what the film was TRYING to do I certainly understand why people have a soft spot for it and really appreciate it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    So when I think of TWINE I think of an interesting, failed experiment. There are a lot of good ideas there but they weren't executed very well
    OMG, TWINE failed, QOS failed, some say SF failed... come on, let's just enjoy the Bonds for what they are, eh? Making a good movie is an art, and not math or science. MR aside, all the Bond movies have merit in some way.
  • Aziz_FekkeshAziz_Fekkesh Royale-les-Eaux
    Posts: 403
    Brosnan's era, indeed all of his performances, are all over the map. GE he is trying a darker Bond (ala Dalton), but he comes across as wooden. Then comes TND (which is too me Broz's best film and performance), which has a fun and flashy style to it. THen comes TWINE, where he's pretty good as mostly serious Bond but still hams it up in certain spots. DAD is the most ludicrous film in the franchise, yet Brosnan is still at a darker/lighter portrayal. My main complaint on the Brozza's era is that there is no real consistency and Pierce has good performances overall but no "defining" film, like say Dalton or Craig.
  • It's by a mile Brosnan's best Bond film and I'm so happy that other people seem to be seeing what I see. It's one of my personal favourites to be honest. I like that M was thrown into the deep end in this one (much like Skyfall).
  • Posts: 1,052
    From the books I've read, I couldn't say one actor has really nailed Fleming's Bond but books are a different beast to films, the books have a lot of inner monolouges and reflection but moments like that are difficult to translate to a film.
    But Fleming had a keen sense of style and the ridiculous, in my opinion the films through DR No - LTK all had a bit of Fleming about them, GE onwards have missed that feel.
    The scene with Brosnan waiting in the hotel in TND definitley feels like it could have come from one of the novels though!
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited December 2012 Posts: 13,978
    MrBrown wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    MrBrown wrote:

    They should bring Marceau back to the series.

    Um, have you seen her lately? She hasn't exactly aged that well.

    645675-www_bruce_juice_com_1347845438.jpg


    Looks fine to me. And major glamour magazines still don't mind putting her on the front cover.

    I have not seen Marceau in a while. Honestly, I think that she looks more attractive now than back in 1999. And I know there's little to no chance of it happening, but I wouldn't be against seeing Marceau in another Bond film.

    As for Brosnan, his performances were like a bowl of spaghetti in the hands of a 2 year old, all over the place.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Marceau looks ok to me. Probably airbrushed and cased in make-up but nevertheless she looks good.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 1,107
    TWINE is in the style of the greatest entries in the series, such as ‘From Russia…', ‘OHMSS', ‘For Your Eyes Only', ‘Living Daylights' and ‘Licence to Kill'. What ‘TWINE' has in common with these is fully-rounded characters and a plot that makes basic sense. In ‘GoldenEye', Sean Bean had the scarred face, so had to be the villain, while in ‘TND' potentially interesting characters such as Paris Carver and Dr Kaufman were killed off almost as soon as they'd appeared. Not here. Sophie Marceau is the most fully developed Bond woman since Diana Rigg and, while Denise Richards's character isn't developed in the same thoughful way, she has a vulnerability reminiscent of some of the better Bond heroines (Tania in ‘From Russia…'). Brosnan has matured, put on weight and has developed some of Timothy Dalton's burnt-out assassin approach to the role. Once or twice there are ‘death-defying' leaps more reminiscent of the ‘Bond is indestructible' approach that ruins the Connery films for me, but 2nd unit director Vic Armstrong (a series veteran in a variety of roles and fight arranger extraordinary) ensures his action sequences are in keeping with the humanity of this new Bond. If Brosnan has still not quite captured the humanity and fears of the Fleming Bond, he's probably come as close as modern audiences will allow the screen Bond to go. This is a pity as Fleming's Bond is so much more interesting than the screen version (Dalton, Lazenby and some parts of Moore's characterisation aside). As M, Judi Dench has a larger than average role and is very convincing, while the supporting players (Colin Samson, Michael Kitchen, Samantha Bond and John Cleese) are all up to par. For the villains, they are mostly an expendable lot, and they are expended violently and often. Cutting down the Rambo-style shootouts that wrecked ‘TND' would have been a good idea given the character-driven approach, but never mind. As villain in chief, Robert Carlyle is excellent (even if his accent isn't consistent throughout the film) and the final confrontation between him and Bond is worthy of anything in Fleming's canon. Meanwhile, Robbie Coltrane gives an excellent reprise of his ‘GoldenEye' role, Zurkovsky.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Good review. :)>-
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