TWINE: Did Brosnan offer a definitive characterisation of 007?

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  • Posts: 1,107
    chrisisall wrote:
    Good review. :)>-

    Thanks ;)
  • lahaine wrote:
    lahaine wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    It's a gut thing I guess. Broz never once convinced me as Bond. Sean, Rog and Tim all nailed it pretty early on - Sean and Tim from day one arguably. In DC I feel that I get flashes of Bond, but also a lot of Terminator/Superman.

    Disagree with the comment on Craig, i think he gives Bond a modern spin maybe not to you're taste.

    I agree with Broz comment. When you walk out of the Cinema you want to be Bond but seen Brosnan's Bond i ended up hating Bond rather wanting to be him. He just came across like a sleazy drunken uncle at a wedding (Moore was the same but he had a touch of class about it) rather then a ice cool secret agent like Connery or Craig did. Plus his films stink and digressed Bond rather then the make him leader of the pack (Mission impossible films and Bourne movies were making Brosnan films look old hat) plus he's not much cop as a actor.

    Weren't you the one who said Craig made Bond cool again because the critics like him?

    Anyway the Bourne films weren't even out while Brosnan was Bond and Mission Impossible is just as OTT as any of the Brosnan films.

    But they are better films you don't agree?

    Better than DAD and some better than TND. None of the Bourne or MI films beat TWINE or GE imo.

    And you said they were making Brosnans films look old hat. Bourne wasn't even out and Mission Impossible is just as OTT, so you were wrong there.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Mission Impossible is just as OTT, so you were wrong there.

    Mission Impossible came out the year after Goldeneye, and was NOT a better or more exciting film anyway, the second one came out in between TWINE & DAD and was just a little more realistic than DAD...
    Bourne started the same year as DAD, but then just about anything was better than DAD anyway.
  • Bourne is a very different beast to Bond. The film's contain no real resembelance to the 007 films aside from the central fact that they feature a adult male lead who is a secret agent. Bourne is gritty and tough and much of the movie is spent in control rooms with other characters, furthermore Bourne dosen't really feel like escapism instead it seems more like something ripped from actual headlines. Bond is more about the glamour and sex appeal, which probably has something to do with his 60's roots. Even QOS which is deemed a Bond rip-off is really rather far from it apart from the shaky cameras and the editting, the actual movie itself is clearly a Bond film.
    But back on point, I always feel there is a danger when squaring movies off against one another, whehter it be TWINE aginst Bourne or even other Bond films. Films should really be judged on their creditals alone and stacking them against one another seems like a rather arbitrary process.
  • Bourne is a very different beast to Bond. The film's contain no real resembelance to the 007 films aside from the central fact that they feature a adult male lead who is a secret agent. Bourne is gritty and tough and much of the movie is spent in control rooms with other characters, furthermore Bourne dosen't really feel like escapism instead it seems more like something ripped from actual headlines. Bond is more about the glamour and sex appeal, which probably has something to do with his 60's roots. Even QOS which is deemed a Bond rip-off is really rather far from it apart from the shaky cameras and the editting, the actual movie itself is clearly a Bond film.
    But back on point, I always feel there is a danger when squaring movies off against one another, whehter it be TWINE aginst Bourne or even other Bond films. Films should really be judged on their creditals alone and stacking them against one another seems like a rather arbitrary process.
    Bourne is the anti-James Bond, actually, in that Bond fights for his government while Bourne fights against his.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Bourne is the anti-James Bond, actually, in that Bond fights for his government while Bourne fights against his.
    Ehhhh, Bond fights his government a bit...
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 803
    chrisisall wrote:
    Bourne is the anti-James Bond, actually, in that Bond fights for his government while Bourne fights against his.
    Ehhhh, Bond fights his government a bit...
    Bond skirts around bureaucrats and regulations, but he is always shown supporting the country he's working for; Bourne is actively working against elements of his government. Bond isn't trying to take out or disrupt elements of MI6, for example.

    And that's the Bond of the movies; the Bond of the Fleming books never was shown to be working at cross purposes to his government/organization.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,230
    Dalton12 wrote:
    TWINE is in the style of the greatest entries in the series, such as ‘From Russia…', ‘OHMSS', ‘For Your Eyes Only', ‘Living Daylights' and ‘Licence to Kill'. What ‘TWINE' has in common with these is fully-rounded characters and a plot that makes basic sense. In ‘GoldenEye', Sean Bean had the scarred face, so had to be the villain, while in ‘TND' potentially interesting characters such as Paris Carver and Dr Kaufman were killed off almost as soon as they'd appeared. Not here. Sophie Marceau is the most fully developed Bond woman since Diana Rigg and, while Denise Richards's character isn't developed in the same thoughful way, she has a vulnerability reminiscent of some of the better Bond heroines (Tania in ‘From Russia…'). Brosnan has matured, put on weight and has developed some of Timothy Dalton's burnt-out assassin approach to the role. Once or twice there are ‘death-defying' leaps more reminiscent of the ‘Bond is indestructible' approach that ruins the Connery films for me, but 2nd unit director Vic Armstrong (a series veteran in a variety of roles and fight arranger extraordinary) ensures his action sequences are in keeping with the humanity of this new Bond. If Brosnan has still not quite captured the humanity and fears of the Fleming Bond, he's probably come as close as modern audiences will allow the screen Bond to go. This is a pity as Fleming's Bond is so much more interesting than the screen version (Dalton, Lazenby and some parts of Moore's characterisation aside). As M, Judi Dench has a larger than average role and is very convincing, while the supporting players (Colin Samson, Michael Kitchen, Samantha Bond and John Cleese) are all up to par. For the villains, they are mostly an expendable lot, and they are expended violently and often. Cutting down the Rambo-style shootouts that wrecked ‘TND' would have been a good idea given the character-driven approach, but never mind. As villain in chief, Robert Carlyle is excellent (even if his accent isn't consistent throughout the film) and the final confrontation between him and Bond is worthy of anything in Fleming's canon. Meanwhile, Robbie Coltrane gives an excellent reprise of his ‘GoldenEye' role, Zurkovsky.


    Couldn't put it any fairer than that, although I disagree about the Submarine finale - which I personally felt lacked any real "punch".
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Bond skirts around bureaucrats and regulations, but he is always shown supporting the country he's working for; Bourne is actively working against elements of his government.

    That's not the same as not supporting his country... just sayin'.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 803
    chrisisall wrote:
    That's not the same as not supporting his country... just sayin'.
    Bourne is never really shown supporting his country, either, though. Certainly not in the films. He's on the run from his country.

    Jason Bourne wants nothing more than to get out; James Bond "never left".

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Bourne is never really shown supporting his country, either, though.

    What about when his parachute opened and it was a flag of... oh, wrong movie, never mind.
  • It's all about Goldeneye for me...that's classic Bond! His other movies had flashes of greatness in them but let down in other places. (We'll pretend DAD never happened).

    - "Who's that?
    - "The next girl."

    "No more foreplay"

    "You first...you second."

    "The thought had occurred to me." - Sexist Bond...YES! Fleming to a T.

    "I gave him the limp."

    - "Only three men, I know use such a gun...I believe I killed two of them."
    - Lucky me.

    Come ooooon, that's f***ing brilliant!

    I think you have to remember that all of these movies belong to the time in which they were made. People will turn more of a blind eye to Roger because that was the 70's and that's what Bond was back then. In the same way you can't really compare 90's Bond to 00's Bond...both very different things.

    You have to remember Brozza had all the 'Best Bond Ever' press in his day. It's just when something as ground shakingly classic as CR comes along, it's hard not to see what came before as infinitely inferior.

    Brosnan was the definitive 90's Bond. That was the style they were going for then and he did a damn good job. If you made CR with Brosnan in the role it would have to have been a very different movie.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823

    Brosnan was the definitive 90's Bond. That was the style they were going for then and he did a damn good job.
    Hear hear my good man!
    =D>
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote:
    Bourne is the anti-James Bond, actually, in that Bond fights for his government while Bourne fights against his.
    Ehhhh, Bond fights his government a bit...
    Bond skirts around bureaucrats and regulations, but he is always shown supporting the country he's working for; Bourne is actively working against elements of his government. Bond isn't trying to take out or disrupt elements of MI6, for example.

    And that's the Bond of the movies; the Bond of the Fleming books never was shown to be working at cross purposes to his government/organization.

    I think we're seeing the Bourne 'legacy' (as it were) being played out in the Bond movies still. The issues that arise in SF are very Bourne-esque. We have agents being trained up and cast adrift when they start to malfunction (Silva) and a lot more of the control-room antics that I associate with Bourne.

    Bond himself though is quite a long way from Bourne. Although Bond's superiors in SF are shown to be incompetent and arguably morally compromised, Bond sticks by them. He is shown to be the ultimate unthinking loyalist who does not challenge authority even when the cause that he is fighting for is morally conflicted. In SF neither does he show any of the sympathy for others that Bourne shows. Bond is a professional killer who has ceased to show an emotional response to what he does. This is a marked shift from CR and QoS and is an indication that he is becoming hardened and less and less sentimental about his work.

    However, although Bond and Bourne are very different, I think that taken on a purely cinematic level (direction, acting, scripts, production design, music) the original 3 Bourne movies are superior on almost every front to anything EON has produced in a very long time.
  • Posts: 1,492
    Getafix wrote:
    [
    However, although Bond and Bourne are very different, I think that taken on a purely cinematic level (direction, acting, scripts, production design, music) the original 3 Bourne movies are superior on almost every front to anything EON has produced in a very long time.

    I would agree with you between 1995 and 2002 but since 2006 I think Bond has been artistically top knotch especially acting and direction.

    Can you realy watch the Shanghai neon scenes or Bonds entrance to the casino and not say the recent films aren't artistically superior to the opposition?
  • Posts: 1,492
    It's all about Goldeneye for me...that's classic Bond! His other movies had flashes of greatness in them but let down in other places. (We'll pretend DAD never happened).

    .

    I find GE notoriously flat. Theres no depth to it. Its as shallow as a puddle.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2012 Posts: 17,823
    actonsteve wrote:
    Its as shallow as a puddle.
    OWWW! You knew just where to huuurrrt me!
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,425
    actonsteve wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    [
    However, although Bond and Bourne are very different, I think that taken on a purely cinematic level (direction, acting, scripts, production design, music) the original 3 Bourne movies are superior on almost every front to anything EON has produced in a very long time.

    I would agree with you between 1995 and 2002 but since 2006 I think Bond has been artistically top knotch especially acting and direction.

    Can you realy watch the Shanghai neon scenes or Bonds entrance to the casino and not say the recent films aren't artistically superior to the opposition?

    I think CR and QoS and visually pretty good too. I personally just think that as a coherent trilogy they top the Craig era. That's just my personal view. I rate Craig but he's never going to beat Sean, Rog or Tim in my rankings, so there's always a limit to how much I'm probably going to enjoy his films.

    I'm afraid I'm also one of those miserabilists who just doesn't 'get' SF. I can see that the film looks good but for my personal tastes I prefer the look and feel of the Bourne films. I'm not a fan of Gassner's production designs at all. I think the fact that I knew the neon scenes were shot in the studio reduced the impact for me. Also the exterior of those buildings was shot just next to the Broadgate office development in London, which also took me out of the movie. That's not Deakin's fault obviously. I do wish they'd done more location shooting in Shanghai though. SF just feels studio bound to me. Again though, that's probably because I followed production too closely and also knew that a lot of the China Sea and Scotland locations were shot elsewhere.

    I'm a bit of a philistine when it comes to cinematography. Script, cast, production design and music are all more important to me. Sometimes if a film looks 'too' glossy I find it distracting. Occassionally I'm blown away by the camera work - Tarkovsky's Stalker is one of my top ten favourite films - but it has to be subserviant to the story the film is telling. I often feel that Hollywood films look incredible but are utter rubbish. I feel a bit like that about SF. Okay, it looks good, but I don't like the film, so what does it matter?
  • AliAli
    Posts: 319
    The Bourne films were very different to Bond, despite all the comparisons. They're closer to The Fugitive in tone. It's pretty rare for Bond to be on the run with no back up, after all. And the Bourne films were really just a collection of very well executed hand to hand fights separated by completely mundane travelling sections. They did introduce much more realistic hand to hand combat to cinema though.
  • Posts: 11,425
    actonsteve wrote:
    It's all about Goldeneye for me...that's classic Bond! His other movies had flashes of greatness in them but let down in other places. (We'll pretend DAD never happened).

    .

    I find GE notoriously flat. Theres no depth to it. Its as shallow as a puddle.

    Agree with you on that!
  • actonsteve wrote:
    It's all about Goldeneye for me...that's classic Bond! His other movies had flashes of greatness in them but let down in other places. (We'll pretend DAD never happened).

    .

    I find GE notoriously flat. Theres no depth to it. Its as shallow as a puddle.

    OHMSS and CR aside...what would you call a 'deep' Bond film?
  • AliAli
    Posts: 319
    My main annoyance with GE is the constant "for England, James...for England, Alec" nonsense. You will find me shouting "what about bloody Scotland, where you're bloody from James?" back at the TV.
  • Posts: 1,492
    Getafix wrote:
    I'm afraid I'm also one of those miserabilists who just doesn't 'get' SF. I can see that the film looks good but for my personal tastes I prefer the look and feel of the Bourne films. I'm not a fan of Gassner's production designs at all. I think the fact that I knew the neon scenes were shot in the studio reduced the impact for me. Also the exterior of those buildings was shot just next to the Broadgate office development in London, which also took me out of the movie. That's not Deakin's fault obviously. I do wish they'd done more location shooting in Shanghai though. SF just feels studio bound to me.?

    Strangely that impresses me more. To find out that they achieved such good shots and they wern't even in Shanghai at times increases my appreciation of the people behind the camera.

    Compare that with GE where you could tell it was Leavesden industrial estate trying to be Russia.

  • Posts: 1,492
    actonsteve wrote:
    It's all about Goldeneye for me...that's classic Bond! His other movies had flashes of greatness in them but let down in other places. (We'll pretend DAD never happened).

    .

    I find GE notoriously flat. Theres no depth to it. Its as shallow as a puddle.

    OHMSS and CR aside...what would you call a 'deep' Bond film?

    Any of the films where there is human drama.

    Spy is mainly flash, bang, wallops but the Anya's revenge on Bond after kills her lover adds another dimension to the film. Anyone where the characters are abit more rounded and you can invest in them abit more.

    GE is very linear. Goes to Monte Carlo, goes to Russia, goes to Cuba.



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    actonsteve wrote:
    Any of the films where there is human drama.

    In movies like the Bond series, human drama is sometimes where you find it- that is, it's generally not put in your face. I found the "we're both orphans" line to be surprisingly moving, and having to fight someone to the death that you counted as a friend a decade back is a hell of a thing in my book.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,425
    actonsteve wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    I'm afraid I'm also one of those miserabilists who just doesn't 'get' SF. I can see that the film looks good but for my personal tastes I prefer the look and feel of the Bourne films. I'm not a fan of Gassner's production designs at all. I think the fact that I knew the neon scenes were shot in the studio reduced the impact for me. Also the exterior of those buildings was shot just next to the Broadgate office development in London, which also took me out of the movie. That's not Deakin's fault obviously. I do wish they'd done more location shooting in Shanghai though. SF just feels studio bound to me.?

    Strangely that impresses me more. To find out that they achieved such good shots and they wern't even in Shanghai at times increases my appreciation of the people behind the camera.

    Compare that with GE where you could tell it was Leavesden industrial estate trying to be Russia.

    I think it's unfair to compare with GE - you're setting the bar too low! ;)

    I agree though that generally the production values have definitely moved up a notch or two in the Craig era. I find Gassner unoriginal but his sets are serviceable. I didn't like Lamont's work much either up until CR, which I thought looked pretty good.

    The look of Skyfall lodge bugs me. To me it doesn't look very Scottish. It looks like a bit like the Adams Family house or a stereotypical spooky old mansion. I had thought that SF was going to make fantastic use of the Scottish landscape, but what we got was dreary. I think the original plan was to use a real and rather beautiful baronial manor house on the coast but they ditched it quite late in the day. I compare SF with The Queen, in which the Scottish landscape became almost a character in the film. For Helen Mirren's Liz II, Balmoral and its estates were a place a refuge and the sweeping shots of the deer hunt are stunning. I had pictured Silva's men making their assault across similarly alluring hills and moorland but got nothing like that. Obviously Skyfall is no sanctuary for Bond but I had hoped for more in the way of visual lushness. I found the final sequences pretty weak to be honest, good cinematography or not.
  • actonsteve wrote:
    actonsteve wrote:
    It's all about Goldeneye for me...that's classic Bond! His other movies had flashes of greatness in them but let down in other places. (We'll pretend DAD never happened).

    .

    I find GE notoriously flat. Theres no depth to it. Its as shallow as a puddle.

    OHMSS and CR aside...what would you call a 'deep' Bond film?

    Any of the films where there is human drama.

    Spy is mainly flash, bang, wallops but the Anya's revenge on Bond after kills her lover adds another dimension to the film. Anyone where the characters are abit more rounded and you can invest in them abit more.

    GE is very linear. Goes to Monte Carlo, goes to Russia, goes to Cuba.



    So being double crossed by a former friend isn't human drama? Surely that's a lot more deep than XXX trying to avenge her murdered lover, then simply changing her mind because Bond is too charming?

  • Don't bother.

    Even though he apparently loves the serious films and hates it when Bond becomes a "cartoon character", the only OTT films @actonsteve seems not to like are Brosnans.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Don't bother.

    Even though he apparently loves the serious films and hates it when Bond becomes a "cartoon character", the only OTT films @actonsteve seems not to like are Brosnans.
    Sounds reasonable to me. After all, Brozza did have the poor misfortune to appear in the worst films in the entire franchise, and also had the unenviable position of being in the Official Worst Movie Ever...DAD.

    Poor old Brozza. It's not his fault he starred in such gut-wrenchingly awful trash.
  • Don't bother.

    Even though he apparently loves the serious films and hates it when Bond becomes a "cartoon character", the only OTT films @actonsteve seems not to like are Brosnans.

    Ahhhh I see...it's one of those is it?
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