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So Skyfall is the first Bond movie without a central Bond Girl?

Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
edited January 2013 in Skyfall Posts: 2,722
Apologies if this has been raised already, but is Skyfall the first movie with out a central romantic lead? I realise in QOS Bond didn't end up with the girl but she was there in the final act and for all intents and purposes a 'bond girl'.
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Comments

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    You don't have to have a romantic angle with Bond to be a Bond girl. Camille is a wonderful example.

    M is Skyfall's Bond girl.
  • ElliotCarverElliotCarver
    Posts: 249
    I guess it is. You could argue that M is the real Bond girl, with a motherly tie with Bond instead of an intimate romantic one. I actually thought it was a great breath of fresh air.
  • Pierce2DanielPierce2Daniel
    Posts: 4,409
    M is the female lead of the movie.

    So for all intents and purposes she is the 'Bond girl' regardless of the lack of romantic intentions the pair have.
  • ElliotCarverElliotCarver
    Posts: 249
    Now that I think about it, what is the criteria of a "Bond girl" anyway? Is it that she has to be with Bond most of the movie and have a shag with him in the end? Or is it just the female lead of the movie, no strings attached?
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited January 2013 Posts: 2,722
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    You don't have to have a romantic angle with Bond to be a Bond girl. Camille is a wonderful example.

    M is Skyfall's Bond girl.

    Yeah, Craig's had a tough time with the ladies! Camille's the only one who's survived! (maybe the girl in the beach hut in SF should be thankful she didn't get to know him better!)
    ElliotCarver wrote:
    I guess it is. You could argue that M is the real Bond girl, with a motherly tie with Bond instead of an intimate romantic one. I actually thought it was a great breath of fresh air.

    I thought it was too. And a deserved send off for Dench.
    Pierce2Daniel wrote:
    M is the female lead of the movie.

    So for all intents and purposes she is the 'Bond girl' regardless of the lack of romantic intentions the pair have.

    I can just imagine her on a Thunderball-style poster draped over Bond in a bikini with Moneypenny and Severine...
    ElliotCarver wrote:
    Now that I think about it, what is the criteria of a "Bond girl" anyway? Is it that she has to be with Bond most of the movie and have a shag with him in the end? Or is it just the female lead of the movie, no strings attached?

    Good observation - I guess they're redefining it in the Craig era. I bet they'll go traditional in Bond 24 though.

  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    Surely Eve counts in a way, right? I mean her and Bond owned the entire PTS and she was in the movie way more than Sévérine
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Surely Eve counts in a way, right? I mean her and Bond owned the entire PTS and she was in the movie way more than Sévérine

    Yes - valid point.
    I guess cos she's money penny I thought of her as established character - similar to M
  • ElliotCarverElliotCarver
    Posts: 249
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Surely Eve counts in a way, right? I mean her and Bond owned the entire PTS and she was in the movie way more than Sévérine

    True, Eve is a bit more of a classic Bond girl, probably the closes we're gonna get in SF. Still, I don't count her as the MAIN Bond girl, probably because, well, she is who she is.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited January 2013 Posts: 28,694
    The Bond girl could be an ally or a villain (Fiona). She could copulate with Bond, or not. So we actually have all types of Bond girl in this one. M is the Bond girl who is a maternal figure and obviously has no romantic connections. Eve is the Bond girl who doesn't sleep with him, and Severine is the more dark (though not necessarily villainous) Bond girl who Bond sleeps with.
    And also when you think about it, Moneypenny is the ultimate Bond girl. The one girl who wants Bond more than any most any other, yet for their own reasons they can't get together. To put it simply, Bond and Moneypenny are like Sherlock and Irene Adler: They are at their best went they don't get together.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    The Bond girl could be an ally or a villain (Fiona). She could copulate with Bond, or not. So we actually have all types of Bond girl in this one. M is the Bond girl who is a maternal figure and obviously has no romantic connections. Eve is the Bond girl who doesn't sleep with him, and Severine is the more dark (though not necessarily villainous) Bond girl who Bond sleeps with.
    And also when you think about it, Moneypenny is the ultimate Bond girl. The one girl who wants Bond more than any most any other, yet for their own reasons they can't get together. To put it simply, Bond and Moneypenny are like Sherlock and Irene Adler: They are at their best went they don't get together.

    All true - but hence why I said central, in the traditional sense. I can accept a Bond girl not being romantic like Camille - but Eve is missing for the final act which is pretty much unique in Bond films til now - so I think M being the 'Bond Girl' is closer but also she's an established character of the franchise so not the same as the usual one off Bond Girls - maybe another reason why SF is so kickass! Actually changing the format rather than the usual publicity line of 'this is a new type of Bond girl' - this really is!
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Surely Eve counts in a way, right? I mean her and Bond owned the entire PTS and she was in the movie way more than Sévérine

    Yes - valid point.
    I guess cos she's money penny I thought of her as established character - similar to M
    Very true but technically this is the first time we see Moneypenny-- just as we do Q ;)

  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Surely Eve counts in a way, right? I mean her and Bond owned the entire PTS and she was in the movie way more than Sévérine

    Yes - valid point.
    I guess cos she's money penny I thought of her as established character - similar to M
    Very true but technically this is the first time we see Moneypenny-- just as we do Q ;)

    Very true! But cos she's missing from most of the final act - especially the climax it's hard to accept her as central...

    BTW - is there really anyone on this forum who hasn't seen SF yet? Should I put spoilers on the ending of OHMSS in case they haven't seen that too? :D
  • youonlylivethriceyouonlylivethrice
    Posts: 117
    M is the main Bond girl. No one can convince me otherwise. Actually, she's not a simply Bond girl - she's a Bond lady. ;)
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    youonlylivethrice wrote:
    M is the main Bond girl. No one can convince me otherwise. Actually, she's not a simply Bond girl - she's a Bond lady. ;)

    The first Bond girl with a bus pass.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    RC7 wrote:
    youonlylivethrice wrote:
    M is the main Bond girl. No one can convince me otherwise. Actually, she's not a simply Bond girl - she's a Bond lady. ;)

    The first Bond girl with a bus pass.

    Just be thankful she didn't do another Jinx-like tribute to Honey Ryder...
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Just be thankful she didn't do another Jinx-like tribute to Honey Ryder...
    gagging.gif
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Just be thankful she didn't do another Jinx-like tribute to Honey Ryder...
    gagging.gif

    one of my favourite comedies...Want to hear the most annoying sound in the world?
    =))
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Just be thankful she didn't do another Jinx-like tribute to Honey Ryder...
    gagging.gif

    one of my favourite comedies...Want to hear the most annoying sound in the world?
    =))

    :))
  • RossiRossi
    edited January 2013 Posts: 157
    M as a bondgirl? I don't think so... Just because she's the leading lady, she must be a bondgirl??? Bondgirls are something else... There's a great difference in between... Every woman character must be a bondgirl? What kind of perspective is this?
  • youonlylivethriceyouonlylivethrice
    Posts: 117
    Rossi wrote:
    M as a bondgirl? I don't think so... Just because she's the leading lady, she must be a bondgirl??? Bondgirls are something else... There's a great difference in between... Every woman character must be a bondgirl? What kind of perspective is this?


    What's wrong with the Bond girls? Why M wouldn't be a Bond girl, by the way? I consider a Bond girl a female who's with Bond most of the time and help him through the movie. Camille proved us she could be one and still never needed sleep with him. She's an ally. And now M did the same. If this certain woman has a different and interesting interaction with Bond, she's a Bond girl for me.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Surely Eve counts in a way, right? I mean her and Bond owned the entire PTS and she was in the movie way more than Sévérine

    Yes - valid point.
    I guess cos she's money penny I thought of her as established character - similar to M
    Very true but technically this is the first time we see Moneypenny-- just as we do Q ;)

    Very true! But cos she's missing from most of the final act - especially the climax it's hard to accept her as central...

    BTW - is there really anyone on this forum who hasn't seen SF yet? Should I put spoilers on the ending of OHMSS in case they haven't seen that too? :D

    Just because Eve wasn't in Skyfall's climax doesn't mean she isn't a contender for a central Bond girl. So what, if Bond 24 has a Bond girl in every single scene but the 20 minute climax, she isn't considered the central Bond girl either? I just don't see the logic.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited January 2013 Posts: 12,480
    To me, M is never a Bond girl. A Bond girl is some girl/woman Bond either flirts with, is an advisary against, or partners with. So Wai Lin, Severine, Camille, Xenia - all are Bond girls to me. Yes, some are villains. they are still Bond girls the way I interpret the films. But never M. M is a great supporting character. Moneypenny to me, is both, but because she is a recurring supporting actor I tend to categorize her as that only; but when I think about it, she is both to me.

    For me in Skyfall, Severine was the main Bond girl; albeit much too short a time on screen.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Saying Bond girls are only ones Bond sleeps with/flirts with is very limiting. Bond girls are like poetry. Everyone looks at what Bond girls are/how they are classified differently, and there is no set definition in place.

    By the way, M being a supporting character is rather an insult, especially considering Skyfall. She IS that film.
  • RossiRossi
    edited January 2013 Posts: 157
    youonlylivethrice wrote:
    Rossi wrote:
    M as a bondgirl? I don't think so... Just because she's the leading lady, she must be a bondgirl??? Bondgirls are something else... There's a great difference in between... Every woman character must be a bondgirl? What kind of perspective is this?


    What's wrong with the Bond girls? Why M wouldn't be a Bond girl, by the way? I consider a Bond girl a female who's with Bond most of the time and help him through the movie. Camille proved us she could be one and still never needed sleep with him. She's an ally. And now M did the same. If this certain woman has a different and interesting interaction with Bond, she's a Bond girl for me.

    I think you don't see my point. The term "Bond-Girl" implies that the "girl" in question is Bond's property or is an object of conquest by him. M is no Girl, and certainly, not Bond's girl. More like the contrary.

    By the way, If M is a bondgirl, are Bill Tanner and Felix Leiter bondboys? They spend a lot of time together and help him through the movie as well. And you know, Bond is more open-minded nowadays...
  • ElliotCarverElliotCarver
    Posts: 249
    Rossi wrote:
    youonlylivethrice wrote:
    Rossi wrote:
    M as a bondgirl? I don't think so... Just because she's the leading lady, she must be a bondgirl??? Bondgirls are something else... There's a great difference in between... Every woman character must be a bondgirl? What kind of perspective is this?


    What's wrong with the Bond girls? Why M wouldn't be a Bond girl, by the way? I consider a Bond girl a female who's with Bond most of the time and help him through the movie. Camille proved us she could be one and still never needed sleep with him. She's an ally. And now M did the same. If this certain woman has a different and interesting interaction with Bond, she's a Bond girl for me.

    I think you don't see my point. The term "Bond-Girl" implies that the "girl" in question is Bond's property or is an object of conquest by him. M is no Girl, and certainly, not Bond's girl. More like the contrary.

    By the way, If M is a bondgirl, are Bill Tanner and Felix Leiter bondboys? They spend a lot of time together and help him through the movie as well. And you know, Bond is more open-minded nowadays...

    Valentin is the only Bond boy in the series. Get it right.
  • jackdaggerjackdagger
    Posts: 498
    What about Paula? I'd consider her a Bond girl and the two have a very professional relationship. They never even flirt.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Surely Eve counts in a way, right? I mean her and Bond owned the entire PTS and she was in the movie way more than Sévérine

    Yes - valid point.
    I guess cos she's money penny I thought of her as established character - similar to M
    Very true but technically this is the first time we see Moneypenny-- just as we do Q ;)

    Very true! But cos she's missing from most of the final act - especially the climax it's hard to accept her as central...

    BTW - is there really anyone on this forum who hasn't seen SF yet? Should I put spoilers on the ending of OHMSS in case they haven't seen that too? :D

    Just because Eve wasn't in Skyfall's climax doesn't mean she isn't a contender for a central Bond girl. So what, if Bond 24 has a Bond girl in every single scene but the 20 minute climax, she isn't considered the central Bond girl either? I just don't see the logic.

    The logic is dictated by 22 films that adhere to this formula. Every single one has the bond girl involved in the climax. YOLT is a good example - while Aki is on screen for longer it is Kissy who is considered the central bond girl because Bond shares the final act with her and they end up together. I'm not saying what a bond girl should be I'm only reflecting on what the series has given us 100% of the time before.
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    Posts: 3,494
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    You don't have to have a romantic angle with Bond to be a Bond girl. Camille is a wonderful example.

    M is Skyfall's Bond girl.

    As far as screen time, I'd agree. Read on...

    4EverBonded wrote:
    To me, M is never a Bond girl. A Bond girl is some girl/woman Bond either flirts with, is an advisary against, or partners with. So Wai Lin, Severine, Camille, Xenia - all are Bond girls to me. Yes, some are villains. they are still Bond girls the way I interpret the films. But never M. M is a great supporting character. Moneypenny to me, is both, but because she is a recurring supporting actor I tend to categorize her as that only; but when I think about it, she is both to me.

    For me in Skyfall, Severine was the main Bond girl; albeit much too short a time on screen.

    In strictly sexual terms, Severine and Tonia 's unnamed character are the Bond girls of SF. But SF, as Major B for one example has pointed out, is different in that two women who are in reality part of the supporting cast 99.9% percent of the time got the lion's share of the screen time. And SF was obviously written to concentrate on ending Dench's tenure and inaugurating Harris' debut as Moneypenny with an amount of script and screen time that reflected that. Q and the new M also benefited from that in mind.

    This is a debate we've had on the originals thread that we've tried to take on a case by case basis. When we do the SF reviews, it's my idea that Marlohe and Sotiropoulou will be the Bond girls and M/Moneypenny supporting cast. They may be more featured, but M certainly not and Moneypenny has no interest in sleeping with Bond despite the flirtations and the excessive level the previous Moneypenny and her virtual fantasies would have you believe from time to time.

    When you get into other movies you find heroes and villains sleeping with Bond. The hero girls cannot be villains, but a villain can be both. Fiona Volpe is a case of a woman who can be both Bond girl and villain, but Xenia Onatopp doesn't cross the line of sleeping with Bond despite her featured role, so I say no to her as a Bond girl but yes as a villain. So you sort of have to read between the blurred lines at times. Just saying "well she's a girl and had a featured role in a Bond movie" is too much of a generalization, for my taste there has to be some meat on the bone that defines exactly what the character is.




  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited January 2013 Posts: 28,694
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Major_Boothroyd wrote:
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    Surely Eve counts in a way, right? I mean her and Bond owned the entire PTS and she was in the movie way more than Sévérine

    Yes - valid point.
    I guess cos she's money penny I thought of her as established character - similar to M
    Very true but technically this is the first time we see Moneypenny-- just as we do Q ;)

    Very true! But cos she's missing from most of the final act - especially the climax it's hard to accept her as central...

    BTW - is there really anyone on this forum who hasn't seen SF yet? Should I put spoilers on the ending of OHMSS in case they haven't seen that too? :D

    Just because Eve wasn't in Skyfall's climax doesn't mean she isn't a contender for a central Bond girl. So what, if Bond 24 has a Bond girl in every single scene but the 20 minute climax, she isn't considered the central Bond girl either? I just don't see the logic.

    The logic is dictated by 22 films that adhere to this formula. Every single one has the bond girl involved in the climax. YOLT is a good example - while Aki is on screen for longer it is Kissy who is considered the central bond girl because Bond shares the final act with her and they end up together. I'm not saying what a bond girl should be I'm only reflecting on what the series has given us 100% of the time before.

    What about Tatiana for example, then, because last time I checked she spends most of the climax passed out and doing nothing first in the train car and then in the back of a truck.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Well, I simply stated how I have felt about categorizing who is a Bond girl. I keep the same opinion, over the years. We can all have different ways of looking at this, and for the Originals thread I will follow their guidelines when rating this category. But I still like looking at the films the way I always have; that won't change. It's not a dilemma for me; I have never really felt confused about it. :)>-

    M was hugely important in Skyfall, but her character will never be a Bond girl to me. That is in no way disrespecting her character or Judi's outstanding performance. That is what a fine supporting character is in a film. And I hope she wins awards for it; she was superb.
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