Worst Fleming Bond Novel?

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  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Yes, I agree @Mendes4Lyfe , he did indeed bang out novels within weeks, but, from my understanding, the months he spent in England would be his time for researching, and outlining and note-taking... And then he'd retreat to Goldeneye to bang out the stories;

    I think each book came in with a certain amount of preparation, but DN really did feel like " and then Bond did this... and then he was burnt... and then he was electrocuted... and then a giant squid..."... It didn't have the usual organic build-up, for me.

    I also have difficulty at times, imaging the proper environment.

    Just my perception on this part of the the novel (I love the rest of DN; but this climax was not my favourite, at all!)...
  • Posts: 1,314
    Moonraker, ohmss and daf are prob my faves

    Golden gun does feel less finished, but it's all relative.

    I really think Fleming was a great great writer with a talent for short, evocative prose.
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    Posts: 3,369
    DAF seems very weak when reading in order since it's between the prime Fleming of MR, and FRWL. On it's own, it's quite good, but when you compare it after reading one after the other it seems weaker.

    I might have to say OHMSS is the weakest, not sure if it's because I had such high expectations from the movie.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Goldfinger absolutly hated the novel

    Besides Moonraker, that is my favourite.

    The one I could do without is The Spy Who Loved Me.
  • Posts: 2,917
    The general consensus among Bond fans and critics is that DAF, TSWLM, and TMWTGG are the weakest Bond novels. Hardcore Fleming fans tend to also include GF (unless they're Anthony Burgess) but exclude TSWLM, which is too different from other Bond books to be judged like them.

    I regard TMWTGG as unquestionably the worst Fleming novel, the only one written after Fleming's powers had dissipated (illness forced him to cut his writing schedule by half). Fleming intended TMWTGG to be the finale of the series, but he confessed to his editor that he was “not yet up to correcting my stupid book” and proposed giving it “another year’s working over so that we can go out with a bang instead of a whimper.” Unfortunately that year never came.

    TMWTGG's opening chapters are a superb and shocking follow-up to YOLT, and its final chapter is lovely and poignant (Craig might want to steal it for his last film), but what's in between is the feeble work of an author no longer able to function at full capacity. As one critic sneered, much of the book reads like a thriller from 1910. The imagination and energy of the early Bonds is gone. Instead Fleming repeats himself (another hoods' congress, another train shootout, Jamaica is once again the location, Bond is once again hired by the villain in a fit of stupidity), and throws in an unbelievably boring plot (sugar futures!), his weakest and most forgettable heroine, Bond at his dullest (electroshock therapy apparently wiped his personality away), and a villain who is little more than a common thug (despite his dossier promising us pistol fetishism and repressed homosexuality). Even the prose is bland and bare.

    By contrast, I am disappointed that some people regard TB as one of the worst books. It's one of Fleming's best. The charge that it reads too much like a film script is baseless--the summaries for the Thunderball scripts are included in The Battle for Bond and all of them are substantially different from the novel. Fleming helped himself to various plot elements (which is why TB is the best-plotted of the Bond books) but recombined them in his own inimitable way. Perhaps the problem is that most readers approach the book after seeing the movie--which leaves the book with no suspense and imposes the film's pacing--and come away disappointed . That was certainly my first reaction.
    But a second reading makes the book come alive on its own terms and pacing. Fleming's Shrublands sequence has a sly comedic quality missing from the flatly directed movie equivalent, while his characters are much more vivid on the page: Largo is Bond's dark twin, Domino is Fleming's most fiery heroine, Blofeld gets an unforgettable cameo that shows the menace of Spectre, Felix is funnier and more human than ever, and even M gets to shine as a health nut. The underwater sequences are also more eerie, beautiful, gory, and thrilling than on film, especially the night battle. And as previously mentioned, the plotting is stronger than usual--Bond and Felix do actual detective work, they follow leads and investigate to build up their case. So do give Thunderball another chance: banish the film from your mind and let your imagination--not the movie--create the images and set the pace.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I found DAF a bit lacklustre, it's probably my least favourite. I liked GF but I couldn't help thinking the movie was better. I actually liked TSWLM- I really was fascinated by making Bond not the centre of his own novel. TMWTGG was interesting. Very uneven, but at least not as bland as most of DAF. I actually REALLY like TB a lot. But, MR is still my favourite...
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 12,837
    My favourites are YOLT, OHMSS and TB. I also really like GF (most underrated of the novels imo) and MR. Weakest for me is definitely TSWLM. I appreciate that he was trying something different but it didn't work too well for me, because even when Bond does show up he doesn't find himself in much of an adventure. At least he seemed to realise that and came back firing on all cylinders with OHMSS. I'm not a huge fan of Diamonds either but that has its moments.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I still wanna see MR made into a proper film, set in the 50's or even 60's.
  • I too love TB, @Revelator. It's one of my top three along with MR and YOLT. I feel like Fleming's prose was extra on form in TB.

    My least favorites are GF (too great a piss take and too much WTF) and TMWTGG (uninteresting plot developments and weak, unpolished prose). I've always rather thought highly of DAF, despite its less than stellar start, and TSWLM never really put me off either. I think I'm most interested in revisiting that one.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    TSWLM never really put me off either. I think I'm most interested in revisiting that one.
    Now that my Son is in College, I think I'll be revisiting all the Bond novels, AND much more...
  • The opening in M's office and the climax in the swamp are the best parts. And I recall a cool, well-written scene earlier on in the book, I think where Bond meets Scaramanga at a local bar.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @Birdleson , TMWTGG is one of my most frequently read novels; love the re-introduction of Bond; so great...

    Then having the slow burn and anxiety inducing steps into the world of Scaramanga (being used as a secretary, is a throwback to GF), it's wonderful tension that is so visceral, it makes my stomach turn.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    With the birds, right? And that strip show is insane.

    Yes, I believe it's the scene with the birds. Been awhile.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    The stripper has a pet bird that Scaramanga kills
  • Posts: 2,917
    Birdleson wrote: »
    With the birds, right? And that strip show is insane.

    I will admit both of those scenes are excellent.
  • Posts: 4,622
    If I must , I can roll with the notion that DAF and TMWTGG are probably the least grabbing, of the Fleming oeuvre.
    I do very much like both GF and TSWLM and TB is excellent
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited September 2017 Posts: 1,711
    Minion wrote: »
    By contrast, I am disappointed that some people regard TB as one of the worst books. It's one of Fleming's best....

    I strongly disagree with you on TMWTGG, but love your defense of Thunderball. I find the movie a complete bore, but Fleming's novel is excellent. The Shrublands sequence in particular walks all over the filmed version, and the related interactions between M and Bond, Bond and May, and then Bond and M, are absolutely hilarious. As in a lot of Fleming's work, the author seems happy to wander around different topics and different little stories (Blofeld's chapter is excellent), before reluctantly dealing with the action that needs to take place, but if one has a problem with that, they should probably just avoid Fleming generally.

    Just a quick note about Doctor No...it's one of my favorites, and I'm fine with some people not liking it, but has anyone else noticed how it's the one Fleming novel that's virtually never discussed? Very odd.

    Anyway, my bland answer to the question is Diamonds Are Forever. I really like the relationship between James and Tiffany, but the plot and general goings-on are very humdrum.



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Anyway, my bland answer to the question is Diamonds Are Forever. I really like the relationship between James and Tiffany, but the plot and general goings-on are very humdrum.


    Agreed. And the rest as well.


  • Posts: 15,110
    Regarding DAF which is maybe my least favourite as well I'd say because it's not in essence a spy thriller but a crime novel. Fleming was far less comfortable with that genre. Incidentally I find TSWLM superior. Maybe not a proper Bond novel but a proper crime fiction novel.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    TB. I've only read it twice and the second time recently it was hard going.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    TSWLM. Lacks the larger than life quality and glamour of the other novels.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    @jetsetwilly Funny, TB is actually my favourite Bond novel (I've read CR, MR, GF, TB, OHMSS and YOLT).

    I'm reading TMWTGG now and I'm really enjoying it. I love the whole brainwashing idea.

    I have a question for all of you who have read all the books: are any of the continuation novels worth reading once I've finished the Fleming books?

    TB is definately one of the best novels. Thrilling storey, great villain, original plot, locations, action etc. The Gardner novels are to be avoided I'm afraid.....he made very unwelcome changes. Recent continuation novels such as DMC etc are worth a read.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly Funny, TB is actually my favourite Bond novel (I've read CR, MR, GF, TB, OHMSS and YOLT).

    I'm reading TMWTGG now and I'm really enjoying it. I love the whole brainwashing idea.

    I have a question for all of you who have read all the books: are any of the continuation novels worth reading once I've finished the Fleming books?

    TB is definately one of the best novels. Thrilling storey, great villain, original plot, locations, action etc. The Gardner novels are to be avoided I'm afraid.....he made very unwelcome changes. Recent continuation novels such as DMC etc are worth a read.

    Colonel Sun is also written in the spirit of Fleming despite lacking the quality of his writing.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,117
    suavejmf wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly Funny, TB is actually my favourite Bond novel (I've read CR, MR, GF, TB, OHMSS and YOLT).

    I'm reading TMWTGG now and I'm really enjoying it. I love the whole brainwashing idea.

    I have a question for all of you who have read all the books: are any of the continuation novels worth reading once I've finished the Fleming books?

    TB is definately one of the best novels. Thrilling storey, great villain, original plot, locations, action etc. The Gardner novels are to be avoided I'm afraid.....he made very unwelcome changes. Recent continuation novels such as DMC etc are worth a read.

    I'd 'definately' have to refute most of that I'm afraid.

    TB is far from Fleming's best. Apart from the SPECTRE meeting at the start and the characterisation of Domino it's pretty pedestrian stuff like the film. Certainly the weakest of 'The SPECTRE Trilogy' as people are wont to call TB, OHMSS and YOLT these days.

    Early Gardner has some redeeming stuff despite a few duds. Licence Renewed and Nobody Lives Forever are certainly worth a look. Post Win, Lose or Die they start dropping off at an alarming rate though. He's still the second best continuation author after Amis.

    DMC is an absolute atrocity written by a smug author who clearly thought Bond was beneath him and that knocking out a Bond novel was the easiest thing in the world.
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly Funny, TB is actually my favourite Bond novel (I've read CR, MR, GF, TB, OHMSS and YOLT).

    I'm reading TMWTGG now and I'm really enjoying it. I love the whole brainwashing idea.

    I have a question for all of you who have read all the books: are any of the continuation novels worth reading once I've finished the Fleming books?

    TB is definately one of the best novels. Thrilling storey, great villain, original plot, locations, action etc. The Gardner novels are to be avoided I'm afraid.....he made very unwelcome changes. Recent continuation novels such as DMC etc are worth a read.

    Colonel Sun is also written in the spirit of Fleming despite lacking the quality of his writing.

    CS at least feels authentic although it does sag in the middle but quite Flemingesque start and finish.
  • Posts: 2,917
    TB is by far the best-plotted of the Blofeld trilogy, has an excellent and vivid cast of characters, and its writing is up to Fleming's usual standards. So there is no way that it would even remotely qualify as Fleming's worst. The film is a comparative slog.
    Gardner can be left unread without much loss. His early books owe too much to the films. His middle books are less cartoony and better written but don't feel very Flemingian. His later books have little do with Fleming or Bond.
  • Posts: 1,917

    DMC is an absolute atrocity written by a smug author who clearly thought Bond was beneath him and that knocking out a Bond novel was the easiest thing in the world.

    I recall being excited to purchase DMC when it came out to take on a vacation and making it through about a quarter of it before giving up, putting it on a shelf and never having the desire to revisit it. It seemed like box checking without feeling fresh or anywhere near Fleming.
    Revelator wrote: »
    TB is by far the best-plotted of the Blofeld trilogy, has an excellent and vivid cast of characters, and its writing is up to Fleming's usual standards. So there is no way that it would even remotely qualify as Fleming's worst. The film is a comparative slog.

    Here I feel just the opposite. Love the film and am always underwhelmed with the book and prefer OHMSS and YOLT. Largo is one of the least interesting villains and it all seems to conclude kind of abruptly.

    What I do like are Fleming's descriptions of the underwater world and the beginning passages describing Bond's health issues for going to Shrublands.



  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    TB is a terrible slog. It was a screenplay-square, first, that Fleming then tried to peg into the novel-circle... it has none of his flow and and he forces all his talent onto something that was already written.

    He was a writer that created from his own originality.

    He wasn't a writer that could adapt from another source material, and he certainly wasn't a writer that could adapt one craft (screenplay), into another craft (a novel).

    Conceptually TB is great, and Blofeld's an amazing character, but, the novel, as a whole, is boring as watching paint dry; a criticism I would never accuse of Fleming's other stories (whether in short form, or long)
  • TB is one of my top 3 Flemings, and this time around is off to a great start so far!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2017 Posts: 5,131
    TB is one of my top 3 Flemings, and this time around is off to a great start so far!

    +1.

    A large part of the allure for me was the exotic Bahamas setting and the scuba diving sequences (especially when Bond first checked out the Disco).

    Unlike many of the Bond novels, Thunderball, had almost its entirety in the film adaptation. Of course there were additions, most notably Bond's jet pack escape at the start! But otherwise the film follows the novel with very minor changes. Overall I think because of this the film is as solid as the novel. I love the film, but then again there isn't a Connery Bond film I don't like! The film definitely shows Fleming's touch, and desire, of wanting it adapted to a film.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    I would say that the most notable addition was Fiona Volpe.

    Yes, who evidently evolved from Fatima Blush in the original screenplay. I've always wondered why Fleming didn't put Fatima in the novel. Maybe he felt there was only so much he could "safely" adapt under his own name.
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