Worst Fleming Bond Novel?

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  • Posts: 9,846
    Goldfinger by far I was bored so much reading through it... ironically enough I like Diamonds are forever and I know many don't... in fact I like it so much rather then a 4th reworking of Moonraker or Live and let Die I say properly adapt Diamonds Are forever
  • Posts: 19,339
    GF followed by TSWLM for me....tedious stuff.
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 3,566
    TSWLM is actually more readable than some people expect if you go into it with an open mind. It's not a standard Bond novel, don't expect it to be one. GF the movie was substantially improved by the changes made over the novel, which is indeed one of Fleming's lesser entries. DAF was also pretty weak...but then, I'm not a big MR fan either, and plenty of folks count this as one of their faves. I'd like to nominate TMWTGG as the least impressive of the Fleming novels, but that's probably because Fleming didn't get a chance to do his standard polishing of the material prior to publication.
  • Posts: 2,917
    I'd like to nominate TMWTGG as the least impressive of the Fleming novels, but that's probably because Fleming didn't get a chance to do his standard polishing of the material prior to publication.

    I would also nominate TMWTGG--great beginning and end scenes, but the rest is unusually thin, in a way GF and DAF are not. Part of the problem also was that Fleming was ill even at the time he wrote the book and had trimmed his usual daily writing schedule. Very much a "troubled production."
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,248
    Revelator wrote: »
    I'd like to nominate TMWTGG as the least impressive of the Fleming novels, but that's probably because Fleming didn't get a chance to do his standard polishing of the material prior to publication.

    I would also nominate TMWTGG--great beginning and end scenes, but the rest is unusually thin, in a way GF and DAF are not. Part of the problem also was that Fleming was ill even at the time he wrote the book and had trimmed his usual daily writing schedule. Very much a "troubled production."

    Perhaps, but I find the backstory to Scaramanga fascinating, and the tension is high from the moment the two titans meet. The writing may not be perfect but the story is highly original and in that way better than MR.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Perhaps, but I find the backstory to Scaramanga fascinating, and the tension is high from the moment the two titans meet. The writing may not be perfect but the story is highly original and in that way better than MR.

    I think Drax has a considerably more interesting backstory, and certainly more villainous stature, than a coarse hitman like Scaramanga. As for the story, I much prefer a conspiracy to nuke London over a conspiracy to manipulate sugar futures.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    I think it’s TMWTGG too... I’m sure it would have been improved if he’d had been able to revise and improve. I always considered GF on lower end but having just read it, I was crazy. It’s loaded with great stuff, but yes the last third could have been better (as the film showed by slight improvements).
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,248
    Revelator wrote: »
    Perhaps, but I find the backstory to Scaramanga fascinating, and the tension is high from the moment the two titans meet. The writing may not be perfect but the story is highly original and in that way better than MR.

    I think Drax has a considerably more interesting backstory, and certainly more villainous stature, than a coarse hitman like Scaramanga. As for the story, I much prefer a conspiracy to nuke London over a conspiracy to manipulate sugar futures.

    Perhaps I've been reading too many Biggles stories as a kid, but I find the nazi angle a bit boring, done a million times, even back then. Scaramanga isn't just about the Sugar cane, he's the KGB operative in the area. And as it happens those sort of contracts were part of world politics back then.
    But what I find interesting is the circus story. Drax is just another mad nazi hellbent on destroying Britain.
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 2,917
    Scaramanga isn't just about the Sugar cane, he's the KGB operative in the area. And as it happens those sort of contracts were part of world politics back then.
    But what I find interesting is the circus story. Drax is just another mad nazi hellbent on destroying Britain.

    Scaramanga's being a KGB operative isn't particularly interesting in itself, especially since he's up to nothing bigger than manipulating sugar futures. That has to be the most boring villain's scheme in any Bond novel. It doesn't motivate the reader to want Bond to stop Scaramanga. The folks who adapted the novel into a comic strip understood this and instead played up the revenge angle of Scaramanga maiming Bond's colleague.

    The circus backstory is neat, but it's disconnected from the adult character of Scaramanga, who has no feeling toward animals as an adult and is little more than a coarse, unfeeling thug. Drax's backstory by contrast helps us understand his motivation--being half English, his motives for destroying London are not just Nazism but a deep-seated loathing of England forged by his education there and experiences with its people. His later experience as Werewolf ties into his self-loathing for his English side and is made possible by his upbringing. His backstory explains his actions more so than with any other Bond villain.
  • Posts: 15,110
    Problem with Scaramanga is that all his nefarious actions are mostly in the past: he's got a high kill count, which is enough for MI6 to wish him dead, but once Bond meets him he's just... There.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Problem with Scaramanga is that all his nefarious actions are mostly in the past: he's got a high kill count, which is enough for MI6 to wish him dead, but once Bond meets him he's just... There.

    Agreed. And all the exciting claims made in his dossier--pistol fetishism, repressed homosexuality, etc.--are forgotten about in the rest of the book. Scaramanga has a wonderful build-up, perhaps the best of any Bond villain, but his actual character is a big let-down.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,615
    Revelator wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Problem with Scaramanga is that all his nefarious actions are mostly in the past: he's got a high kill count, which is enough for MI6 to wish him dead, but once Bond meets him he's just... There.

    Agreed. And all the exciting claims made in his dossier--pistol fetishism, repressed homosexuality, etc.--are forgotten about in the rest of the book. Scaramanga has a wonderful build-up, perhaps the best of any Bond villain, but his actual character is a big let-down.

    I think that's because Fleming didn't get the chance to properly write him as a better villain. Christopher Lee's performance is much better written (and that's from Tom Mackiewicz)!
  • Posts: 1,917
    Fleming's Scaramanga seems more like a henchman than one that is meant to rank alongside the likes of Grant, Dr. No and Blofeld.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    DAF is my least favoured one. But I love the beginning with the scorpion.

    While some of you are bored of the golf game in GF (the book has some lengths but I love the golf part) I'm bored of some chapters in TB.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,287
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’m at the part in GF where Bond is strapped to the table saw, and I want to again say that for my griping about this book, sections are stellar. Such as where I am now. And Goldfinger and Odd Job are among Fleming’s most fascinating creations. There is no worst Fleming, they all rise to the occasion at some point.

    Great point.
  • Posts: 7,653
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Fleming's Scaramanga seems more like a henchman than one that is meant to rank alongside the likes of Grant, Dr. No and Blofeld.

    Don't forget Le Chiffre who was a henchman for SMERSH and because he failed was eliminated , for me Scaramanga was the same.
    The bit about Scaramanga was alright for me TMWTGG was more about the resurrection of 007 after the Blofeld trilogy, and M used him as the blunt tool she needed to remove a player from the board so 007 could prove his worth or die trying.
  • Posts: 15,110
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Problem with Scaramanga is that all his nefarious actions are mostly in the past: he's got a high kill count, which is enough for MI6 to wish him dead, but once Bond meets him he's just... There.

    Agreed. And all the exciting claims made in his dossier--pistol fetishism, repressed homosexuality, etc.--are forgotten about in the rest of the book. Scaramanga has a wonderful build-up, perhaps the best of any Bond villain, but his actual character is a big let-down.

    I think that's because Fleming didn't get the chance to properly write him as a better villain. Christopher Lee's performance is much better written (and that's from Tom Mackiewicz)!

    I agree that Fleming didn't have the time to write the novel, but I don't think the movie is better written, only that the character is given something more to do. TMWTGG had lots of potential, both movie and film. You have a henchman as the main villain, a simple motivation, a great settings, it's just that Scaramanga is given little to do. He needed more, not necessarily a large plan with a doomsday device, but something that would give us a feel of urgency.
  • Posts: 7,653
    For me the feel of TMWTGG is not so much the plot but James Bond after the traumatic events and his attack on his own boss finding his feet back to the world. I would not have minded if in a rewrite Fleming had chosen for a more personal Bond book than a high profile book. After Blofeld it was time to tone down.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,287
    SaintMark wrote: »
    For me the feel of TMWTGG is not so much the plot but James Bond after the traumatic events and his attack on his own boss finding his feet back to the world. I would not have minded if in a rewrite Fleming had chosen for a more personal Bond book than a high profile book. After Blofeld it was time to tone down.

    An excellent post, thank you.
  • Posts: 2,917
    SaintMark wrote: »
    For me the feel of TMWTGG is not so much the plot but James Bond after the traumatic events and his attack on his own boss finding his feet back to the world. I would not have minded if in a rewrite Fleming had chosen for a more personal Bond book than a high profile book.

    I understand your point, but even there TMWTGG is a failure. Bond finding his back to the world is ridiculously easy--in between chapters he gets electro-shock therapy and presto! is magically better again. Instead of having to live with and overcome trauma, Bond is returned to blank slate mode, with barely any memories of the recent past. Even his impossible mission of taking down Scaramanga turns out to be easier than expected, since Pistols doesn't live up to his dossier and his establishment has already been infiltrated by CIA agents. There are many promising elements and ideas in TMWTGG, but Fleming was simply too exhausted and ill to do them justice.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Revelator wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    For me the feel of TMWTGG is not so much the plot but James Bond after the traumatic events and his attack on his own boss finding his feet back to the world. I would not have minded if in a rewrite Fleming had chosen for a more personal Bond book than a high profile book.

    I understand your point, but even there TMWTGG is a failure. Bond finding his back to the world is ridiculously easy--in between chapters he gets electro-shock therapy and presto! is magically better again. Instead of having to live with and overcome trauma, Bond is returned to blank slate mode, with barely any memories of the recent past. Even his impossible mission of taking down Scaramanga turns out to be easier than expected, since Pistols doesn't live up to his dossier and his establishment has already been infiltrated by CIA agents. There are many promising elements and ideas in TMWTGG, but Fleming was simply too exhausted and ill to do them justice.

    I understand what you are saying but it still is by no means his worst novel even if it is a rough draft instead of refined novel. I find his last novel easily better to read than most continuation novels, simply because it is still written by Ian Fleming and that makes a 007 novel easily better.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited February 2019 Posts: 8,248
    Sure TMWTGG needed some more work, I agree with that, but I love too manuy elements of the book to make it his worst. I love it when Bond decides not to kill him when he's behind him in the car, or the way he challanges Scaramanga during the show. And the mannequin? The shoot-out? Bondd in the swamp?
  • Posts: 15,110
    Sure TMWTGG needed some more work, I agree with that, but I love too manuy elements of the book to make it his worst. I love it when Bond decides not to kill him when he's behind him in the car, or the way he challanges Scaramanga during the show. And the mannequin? The shoot-out? Bondd in the swamp?

    I agree. It's a mess, but it has lots of good things, however anarchic the whole novel (novella?) is.
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