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The Science - Science Fiction thread

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    4EverBonded wrote:
    I am all for stem cell research; I think it is very important.
    I'm also a Christian, so I want to say just please keep in mind that not all "religious folks" think that stem cell research, or science, is bad.

    I have not studied it, but my impression is that a lot of the reaction against having vaccines is in error and has caused many people. especially children, to be vulnerable again to many diseases, including measles and polio. That kind of attitude seems to get blown up quickly, especially when you have "celebrities" touting that kind of thinking.

    I'm a Christian and I agree. Well said, @4EverBonded.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Thanks - and I like your new avatar, Dragonpol. Why don't you keep this one awhile? It's great!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    To be fair, the Christians are not the ones who blow up or slit the throats of vaccination workers,women and children. It was not directed to religious people in general. I have respect for everyone who values love and life.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Oh, some "Christians" do blow up others and kill doctors. I was not picking on any particular wording, just wanted to state that there are Christians and other people of different faiths who cannot be lumped together into the other murderous, wild speculation, and science trashing group.

    No problem, Thunderfinger.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    My two cents:

    Some fierce opponents of scientific research of the kind mentioned are indeed religious folks, and not only Christians. But to turn this around and claim that all Christians are saboteurs of scientific progress would be utterly wrong.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Some of the biggest humanitarians and thinkers in the history of science and invention have been Christians and Jews, so that goes without saying.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    Thunderfinger wrote:
    Some of the biggest humanitarians and thinkers in the history of science and invention have been Christians and Jews, so that goes without saying.

    Well that's easy, as Christianity and Judaism, in Europe, werethe common denominator: Athaism is the new kid on the block, relatively, of course. But what people believe is the almighty power in the universe, or what happens after death, doesn't really matter that much. I had a Christian collegue who claimed he had to live the perfect life as he not only had his direct surroundings and the law to abide to but thought he'd be judged by God as well. For me, I think it's the other way around. I only have to be judged by those around me (and the law), but that's the thing. For me there's no reconcilliation after death. If I die I can not right the things I've done wrong.

    Does this all affect science? not in the least. If your scientific work is meant to advance humanity, I don't think anyone, in or after this life, will judge you negatively.

    Then there's this odd thing about life and stemcells. Many don't seem to care about how many plants or animals that are killed daily (life!), but stemcells are life and you should not use them? How many deaths do those people have on their concience? How many squatted flies, burnt ants, killed wasps, smashed mosquito's? Life, on this planet, is in abundance. stemcells are all part of that. It's intelligent life that is, in one way or another, rare and special. And intelligence is, of course, open to debate. ;-)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is the political religions that are dangerous (you all know which I have in mind). Those that mostly deal with the afterlife are not relevant when it comes to these topics. They can be disregarded without danger.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @CommanderRoss, you're right about opening up the debate about the moral status of stem cells. We're not exactly dealing with developed, intelligent life, are we?
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    SaintMark wrote:
    The religious folks always have faith in something unproveable, and the chance of improving live they tend to leave up to their deity even if none of them have a trackrecord that shows they give a shit.

    I should have been clearer, the religious fanatical wing does usually nothing by logic only by their big book that is to be interpreted as people see fit, albeit the Bible, Torah or Koran, not sure what the Hindoes describe to.

    And while I do not think that scientists should be given carte blanche in everything there should be a lot of leeway if humanity can benefit. Alzheimer and dementia are awefull on families and certainly in the beginning fases for the victim. Knowing that everything that you were is slowly dissapearing is a horrible faith for anybody.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    DarthDimi wrote:
    @CommanderRoss, you're right about opening up the debate about the moral status of stem cells. We're not exactly dealing with developed, intelligent life, are we?
    The odd thing is we don't even blink an eye when it comes to killing intelligent life either. How many pigs, cows, deer, etc. do we eat for dinner? Even Dolphins aren't safe everywhere. Now I understand the difference lies with the fact that stemcells are human cells. But still, they're not really lifeworthy, they can't grow into humans..
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2014 Posts: 18,270
    4EverBonded wrote:
    Thanks - and I like your new avatar, Dragonpol. Why don't you keep this one awhile? It's great!

    Yes, I intend to keep this one for good now! Thanks for your support, dear @4EverBonded.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    I am all for improving the quality of our lives and fighting terrible diseases - dementia and Alzheimer are, as @SaintMark described, terrible. I'm also sure we need many less people on this planet. In some parts of the world, people are born at stupefying rates. Many political, economical, environmental and social problems are a direct result of Earth's overpopulation. It could be a good world with less than a billion people who, through the help of science, can live relatively high-quality lives.

    I remember a remark from a Muslim girl in one of my classes a few years ago. She thought it was outright criminal to abort pregnancies even if it could be demonstrated that the infant-to-be was genetically destined to spend but a few years on this planet and all the while in agonizing pain. A few days later I learned from a colleague, who teaches history, that she considered the Holocaust a "gift from Allah", a good thing as it were. Strange, how intervening with unborn life was something she detested, while terminating several millions of healthy lives over so superficial an issue as religious or political heritage was perfectly fine in her mind. (PC safety note: I'm don't mean to comment on all Muslims.)
  • AnonAnon
    Posts: 246
    DarthDimi wrote:
    ...Strange, how intervening with unborn life was something she detested, while terminating several millions of healthy lives over so superficial an issue as religious or political heritage was perfectly fine in her mind. (PC safety note: I'm don't mean to comment on all Muslims.)

    This illustrates the nonsense that occurs when religious types derive their morality from a bunch of ludicrous, contradictory, execrable and ancient texts groundlessly held up to be 'the word of god'.

    I get exasperated whenever a discussion of morality is joined in with by a contributor airing religiously-coloured viewpoints. Not simply because such viewpoints are inherently worthless (if they are untempered biblical quotations), but most particularly because of the arrogant presumption on the part of the religious that human morality comes from god and that their views must therefore carry absolute weight in any debate.

    Ethics is not a subdomain of theology. Yet so often, even in more liberal media, morality always seems to be discussed in a religious context.

    Whatever the rights or wrongs of stem cell research, religious arguments against or in favour are simply irrelevant to me.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    Anon wrote:
    DarthDimi wrote:
    ...Strange, how intervening with unborn life was something she detested, while terminating several millions of healthy lives over so superficial an issue as religious or political heritage was perfectly fine in her mind. (PC safety note: I'm don't mean to comment on all Muslims.)

    This illustrates the nonsense that occurs when religious types derive their morality from a bunch of ludicrous, contradictory, execrable and ancient texts groundlessly held up to be 'the word of god'.

    I get exasperated whenever a discussion of morality is joined in with by a contributor airing religiously-coloured viewpoints. Not simply because such viewpoints are inherently worthless (if they are untempered biblical quotations), but most particularly because of the arrogant presumption on the part of the religious that human morality comes from god and that their views must therefore carry absolute weight in any debate.

    Ethics is not a subdomain of theology. Yet so often, even in more liberal media, morality always seems to be discussed in a religious context.

    Whatever the rights or wrongs of stem cell research, religious arguments against or in favour are simply irrelevant to me.
    It should be no wonder to you though when you see what purpose religion has had over the thousands of years previously. It's been a threat and lawbook in one. If you don't obay the words of your god(s) you'll end up in hell (or similar unfriendly place) for eternity (a very long time, so long you certainly don't want that to happen!). That worked. Then it became a power tool, in which priests became more powerfull then kings (another power tool, the village eldest (and supposedly wisest) when dying not giving his judgmental powers to the next-eldest, but to his heir). They then struck back, making sure Kings/Sultans/Maharadja's etc. were now appointed/elected by their respective god(s).

    So, you've got an (several) eternal judge in the sky who's work you're doing. That means you need a rule book. You probably have stories about the first person to start your religion. You pick the ones that work best, stick them together and you've got your rulebook, with stories to be interpreted in your favour, every single time. in Christianity it's called a 'bible', in Islam the 'q'oran' or whatever way you spell it and the Jews have their Tora. Names of books of others I don't know but no doubt they're there.

    Every book should contain some of the following:
    - Superiority of it's peoples. Why? Because that binds them together! When you're attacked by another clan you most certainly want to be the chosen peoples, right? And you wnat your neighbour on your side and not walking over to the other party.
    Nice to know there's never been a people at war where one side did not claim to have a diety on their side.
    - Rules to live your daily life. Hey, it's a rule book, and again, daily rituals also bind people together. It's a two-in-one.
    - Punishment stories. If you do this (insert wrongdoing), you get hanged/stoned/ beaten/ burnt/ etc. Make it gruesome, that should teach them!
    - Promise of paradise if you follow the rules. Hey, it's called 'stick AND carrot'right?

    So, here's your basic religion. Why people believe in these things? Well, we're genetically set to belong to a group, for safety reasons. We tend to prefer a certain set of safety's or constant factors, so we'll notice it when they're different, but moreso because it gives time to prioretise on other matters. Those who guard, guard. Those who seek food, seek food, and both sides depend on eachother.

    So genetically we're programmed to follow sets of rules, and to play it safe we prefer those rules that give us certainty over things we cannot be certain about but scare the hell out of us, preferably death. Hey, that's where religion has one over secular lawbooks.


  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Well said, Commander.

    Christianity,taking some of the better parts of Judaism and adding the threat of Hell, was introduced by the Roman elite to pacify the population. Worked real well, so well in fact that they lost Constantinople and their Eastern kingdom to the invading muslims.

    Islam, taking the worst parts of Judaism,turning most of the ten commandments upside down and adding a lot of even worse commandments and a brothel in the sky for "martyrs", was invented to help Muhammad access booty and slaves and make him ruler of Arabia. Worked wonders as well.
  • forgotmyusernameforgotmyusername
    Posts: 2,782
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    Thunderfinger wrote:
    Islam, taking the worst parts of Judaism,turning most of the ten commandments upside down and adding a lot of even worse commandments and a brothel in the sky for "martyrs", was invented to help Muhammad access booty and slaves and make him ruler of Arabia. Worked wonders as well.

    A rather oversimplified and untrue account on the faith of Islam, at least some respect for the truth. Like Christianity and Judaism they have their share of lunatic followers. I have many believers of the religion Islam that carry the same values as the average christian and they both detest the extremists.

    I found the history of Islam a fascinating one and just as plagued by schisms as Christianity has.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @forgotmyusername, that's some fascinating stuff you got there! :-) Thank you!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    SaintMark wrote:
    Thunderfinger wrote:
    Islam, taking the worst parts of Judaism,turning most of the ten commandments upside down and adding a lot of even worse commandments and a brothel in the sky for "martyrs", was invented to help Muhammad access booty and slaves and make him ruler of Arabia. Worked wonders as well.

    A rather oversimplified and untrue account on the faith of Islam, at least some respect for the truth. Like Christianity and Judaism they have their share of lunatic followers. I have many believers of the religion Islam that carry the same values as the average christian and they both detest the extremists.

    I found the history of Islam a fascinating one and just as plagued by schisms as Christianity has.

    Sorry to hear that you have read a false version of the Quran, the Hadiths and the Sira as well as a false version of islamic history. Personally I have only read those versions that are agreed upon by all Islamic scholars. Most "muslims" are as clueless as you are about it, I have several friends and aquaintances like that too. They live in a lalaland that is designed by some well meaning mullahs or family members who do not fancy the truth. The "islamists" (as we call them, they say "muslims") have it 100 percent right, and I really really wish that was not the case.
  • forgotmyusernameforgotmyusername
    Posts: 2,782
    Tesla or Einstein? True master against the masonic poster boy? Who gave us more, who deserved more recognition, who was sidelined by the illuminati...Tesla knew about string theory and dark matter - how far ahead would we be if Tesla was given the credit he should have had in his own time.




  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited June 2014 Posts: 14,571
    Supercomputer passes Turing Test:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11270548
    http://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/382938/Supercomputer-passes-the-Turing-test-could-Terminator-become-a-reality

    The singularity is near...
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    forgotmyusername wrote:
    Tesla or Einstein? True master against the masonic poster boy? Who gave us more, who deserved more recognition, who was sidelined by the illuminati...Tesla knew about string theory and dark matter - how far ahead would we be if Tesla was given the credit he should have had in his own time.

    @forgotmyusername, I'm a fan of Tesla's work (and in a geeky note: Bowie's portrayal of the man in The Prestige makes me an even bigger fan on the pure 'cool' factor alone. :))

    QBranch wrote:
    Supercomputer passes Turing Test:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11270548
    http://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/382938/Supercomputer-passes-the-Turing-test-could-Terminator-become-a-reality

    The singularity is near...

    @QBranch, I feel like the days of the fembots are finally upon us. :D

  • forgotmyusernameforgotmyusername
    Posts: 2,782
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    'Earth may have underground 'ocean' three times that on surface'

    http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jun/13/earth-may-have-underground-ocean-three-times-that-on-surface

    I don't know about anyone else, but I find this VERY interesting. I mean, it could make for a superb sequel to Waterworld. Watch this (inner) space.
    DarthDimi wrote:
    @QBranch, I feel like the days of the fembots are finally upon us. :D
    Groovy, baby! I have a love-hate relationship with machine gun jubblies. But mostly love >:D<
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    2mhhoue.jpg
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    tumblr_m93k7x5Bbl1rutj7p.gif
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    Personally, I believe there's something much more sinister going on...

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    WillyGalore wrote:
    tumblr_m93k7x5Bbl1rutj7p.gif

    :))
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    forgotmyusername wrote:
    Tesla or Einstein? True master against the masonic poster boy? Who gave us more, who deserved more recognition, who was sidelined by the illuminati...Tesla knew about string theory and dark matter - how far ahead would we be if Tesla was given the credit he should have had in his own time.




    And without Tesla there would of course be no Tesla coils to perform classic hits like this:

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