Earth's climate changing a.k.a. Global Warming

chrisisall

I was just at a science fiction site where I'm astounded to learn that there are a lot of creative, intelligent & educated folks that attach some kind of hyper-emotional twisted political-conspiratorial thing to a simple, scientifically provable fact, that fact being that the Earth is on a warming trend. Big fights also over whether man is causing it, which I think is rather useless since so WHAT if man IS causing it? It's not like we could just STOP tomorrow, and if it's a natural cyclical function of this planet, all the more reason to not bother with the argument. Oh, but then it goes to man isn't causing it because it's not happening.
Just wondering about people here... is all the science owned & distorted/fabricated by left wing world domination desiring liberal fascists (as some actually say in places), or is the changing climate something that could or will affect our way of life on this planet (specifically, in the area of sea level rise & farm land arability)?

echo

The scientific community is united in affirming the existence of man-made global warming, except for a few outlier studies sponsored by the oil companies for their own nefarious ends.

chrisisall

Here in America it seems there is a strong belief among many that the Earth's climate is just business as usual, ignoring mean temperature rise, sea level change & storm severity increase. Seems to be an extreme right-wing thing...

DarthDimi

Warnings concerning global warming, caused by industrialised man, have been advanced since long before I was born. Science writers with absolutely no political agenda whatsoever, like Isaac Asimov, wrote countless essays and books in which global warming was discussed as both a natural phenomenon to which we owe our lives and a process we are constantly pushing further and further beyond acceptable levels.

Furthermore, evidence can be taken not merely from statistical figures (which one could argue could be bent and twisted), but also from - here goes - common sense. Chemistry 101: heats gets trapped in certain molecules such as methane, carbon dioxide and even water vapour. Burning fossil fuels, by the very nature of the substances, releases large amounts of both carbon dioxide and water vapour. Mind-bogglingly large areas of our planet are spent on cows, who will eventually get slaughtered for the benefit of our hamburger consumption, and who release, from their digestive processes, tremendous amounts of methane. The cumulative effect of all these fast-food cows results in, again, a powerful increase in our atmospheric methane levels.

What's even worse is the runaway effect this will eventually cause. By that I mean that the more we keep our planet's heat trapped within its atmosphere, the more the Earth's average temperature rises. While this only includes a mere few degrees at most over an entire century, this means, on a global scale, a massive vaporization of liquid water. As more water thus enters our atmosphere, the global warming effect increases even further, resulting in more vaporization, and so on. Hence, the runaway effect. At one point, things will inevitably grow beyond our control and Earth sadly becomes Mars 2.0.

Some say: what damage could it do? Things get a little hotter... so what? It's bloody cold during Autumn and Winter; I could use a bit of warmth. Obviously it's much worse than that. Firstly, ice caps melt, causing vast amounts of liquid water to pour into the ocean. Larger waves and general oceanic unrest lead to more tsunamis and unpredictable weather conditions, a retaking of land by the seas and so on. Secondly, as the Earth heats up, it tends to lose hold on its atmosphere, causing the various gasses we need to breath and to protect us from hostile radiation from space to float outward into space. Basically, the same thing that happened to Mercury, the Moon and Mars, would happen to us.

I'm quite honestly a trifle worried, though I'm by no means an environmentalist in the 'political' sense. I consider myself a sober-minded scientist above all, but I'm nonetheless worried.

chrisisall

You seem to have a clear & reasonable understanding of the situation, Darth. \m/

mdo007

DarthDimi wrote:

Warnings concerning global warming, caused by industrialised man, have been advanced since long before I was born. Science writers with absolutely no political agenda whatsoever, like Isaac Asimov, wrote countless essays and books in which global warming was discussed as both a natural phenomenon to which we owe our lives and a process we are constantly pushing further and further beyond acceptable levels.

Furthermore, evidence can be taken not merely from statistical figures (which one could argue could be bent and twisted), but also from - here goes - common sense. Chemistry 101: heats gets trapped in certain molecules such as methane, carbon dioxide and even water vapour. Burning fossil fuels, by the very nature of the substances, releases large amounts of both carbon dioxide and water vapour. Mind-bogglingly large areas of our planet are spent on cows, who will eventually get slaughtered for the benefit of our hamburger consumption, and who release, from their digestive processes, tremendous amounts of methane. The cumulative effect of all these fast-food cows results in, again, a powerful increase in our atmospheric methane levels.

What's even worse is the runaway effect this will eventually cause. By that I mean that the more we keep our planet's heat trapped within its atmosphere, the more the Earth's average temperature rises. While this only includes a mere few degrees at most over an entire century, this means, on a global scale, a massive vaporization of liquid water. As more water thus enters our atmosphere, the global warming effect increases even further, resulting in more vaporization, and so on. Hence, the runaway effect. At one point, things will inevitably grow beyond our control and Earth sadly becomes Mars 2.0.

Some say: what damage could it do? Things get a little hotter... so what? It's bloody cold during Autumn and Winter; I could use a bit of warmth. Obviously it's much worse than that. Firstly, ice caps melt, causing vast amounts of liquid water to pour into the ocean. Larger waves and general oceanic unrest lead to more tsunamis and unpredictable weather conditions, a retaking of land by the seas and so on. Secondly, as the Earth heats up, it tends to lose hold on its atmosphere, causing the various gasses we need to breath and to protect us from hostile radiation from space to float outward into space. Basically, the same thing that happened to Mercury, the Moon and Mars, would happen to us.

I'm quite honestly a trifle worried, though I'm by no means an environmentalist in the 'political' sense. I consider myself a sober-minded scientist above all, but I'm nonetheless worried.

You're correct and there's one more thing, freak weather this planet has gotten. Like the major heat wave we had last summer. Is that a good example?

Sandy

mdo007 wrote:

DarthDimi wrote:

Warnings concerning global warming, caused by industrialised man, have been advanced since long before I was born. Science writers with absolutely no political agenda whatsoever, like Isaac Asimov, wrote countless essays and books in which global warming was discussed as both a natural phenomenon to which we owe our lives and a process we are constantly pushing further and further beyond acceptable levels.

Furthermore, evidence can be taken not merely from statistical figures (which one could argue could be bent and twisted), but also from - here goes - common sense. Chemistry 101: heats gets trapped in certain molecules such as methane, carbon dioxide and even water vapour. Burning fossil fuels, by the very nature of the substances, releases large amounts of both carbon dioxide and water vapour. Mind-bogglingly large areas of our planet are spent on cows, who will eventually get slaughtered for the benefit of our hamburger consumption, and who release, from their digestive processes, tremendous amounts of methane. The cumulative effect of all these fast-food cows results in, again, a powerful increase in our atmospheric methane levels.

What's even worse is the runaway effect this will eventually cause. By that I mean that the more we keep our planet's heat trapped within its atmosphere, the more the Earth's average temperature rises. While this only includes a mere few degrees at most over an entire century, this means, on a global scale, a massive vaporization of liquid water. As more water thus enters our atmosphere, the global warming effect increases even further, resulting in more vaporization, and so on. Hence, the runaway effect. At one point, things will inevitably grow beyond our control and Earth sadly becomes Mars 2.0.

Some say: what damage could it do? Things get a little hotter... so what? It's bloody cold during Autumn and Winter; I could use a bit of warmth. Obviously it's much worse than that. Firstly, ice caps melt, causing vast amounts of liquid water to pour into the ocean. Larger waves and general oceanic unrest lead to more tsunamis and unpredictable weather conditions, a retaking of land by the seas and so on. Secondly, as the Earth heats up, it tends to lose hold on its atmosphere, causing the various gasses we need to breath and to protect us from hostile radiation from space to float outward into space. Basically, the same thing that happened to Mercury, the Moon and Mars, would happen to us.

I'm quite honestly a trifle worried, though I'm by no means an environmentalist in the 'political' sense. I consider myself a sober-minded scientist above all, but I'm nonetheless worried.

You're correct and there's one more thing, freak weather this planet has gotten. Like the major heat wave we had last summer. Is that a good example?

Exactly, one of the effects is that we will experience extreme meteorological phenomena such as extremely cold winters coupled with incredibly hot summers, lots of rain followed by brutal droughts, etc.

chrisisall

DarthDimi wrote:

Secondly, as the Earth heats up, it tends to lose hold on its atmosphere, causing the various gasses we need to breath and to protect us from hostile radiation from space to float outward into space. Basically, the same thing that happened to Mercury, the Moon and Mars, would happen to us.

That's the only part where it seems you are in error, our gravity, being greater than those others will keep it all here (I just heard from a science-y person), however the CONDITION it will be here in you are right on about.

DarthDimi

I'm afraid I'm not wrong. Gravity indeed plays a big part but the higher the temperature, the greater a molecule's kinetic energy. Sufficient kinetic energy enables the molecule to reach escape velocity. Titan has a much smaller mass than Mercury yet it's also much farther away from the Sun. Unlike Mercury though, Titan has managed to retain its atmosphere. This contradicts your friend's statement, @chrisisall, that gravity should be the decisive factor. Temperature is essential as well. That said, good friend, a small temperature rise will not immediately wash away our atmosphere in one big sweep - of course - but all disturbances, no matter how small, in the end add up to reach full catastrophe. ;-)

chrisisall

DarthDimi wrote:

all disturbances, no matter how small, in the end add up to reach full catastrophe. ;-)

Agreed.
Well, we need to do something, question is, what? Kinda too late to just shut down ever polluting factory & truck, and force everyone to stop eating cows... seems to me it's rollin' too fast to stop it now.
We need more indoor hydroponics, and a SERIOUS investment in solar power (as well as wind & geothermal). Drought in arable areas seems to me to be our most immediate concern here, what do you think?

DarthDimi

The only conceivable solution I can think of is nuclear fusion. Once, it was a dream. A few years ago, it was made reality. We're coming ever so close to making it work on a large scale. It's not economically feasibly yet, but many among us are optimistic that it will be by the end of the century. Thought I probably won't live to see it happen, I'm doubtful that anything else will be able to break the chain of oil consumption until the last drop of oil is actually dug up.

Look, we're not writing your term paper here, are we? ;-)

chrisisall

No, this is just for me... :)>-

But take a look at a response to a question of mine from today (a fellow American btw):

for a planet 4+ billion years old, what takes place over a few years, decades or even centuries is pretty irrelevant.


But I have to admire ( while being sickened ) at the slick PR tactics the extreme, far Left has deployed on those who refuse to buy into the fairy tale of AGW. The labeling of anyone who questions the data, the political motivation, the contradictory messages, anyone who even dares to suggest we wait and see to collect more data before we go screaming like chicken little , everyone is collectively branded as a " denier ". That word has a very distinct and powerful meaning, as it was used, rightfully so, to cast asperscions on anyone who doubted the horrors of the holocaust, or that " denied " there ever was one. With one single word, the entire argument, it is hoped, can be put to rest, and the character and motivations ( as well as the intelligence and sanity ) of ANYONE who doubts that AGW is real and of any significant concern, can be mocked and marginalized.

This isn't 'science', in the least. It's propaganda, thuggery and intimidation.


Tell me that doesn't make you jaw drop just a little... :O

4EverBonded

Makes me dismayed and it is rather sickening; and sad to say, not surprising to hear. By the way, I'm an American, living overseas.

Sandy

My goodness, some people live in a world of their own. Unfortunately we all have to pay for our common mistakes. But as long as there are people like that we can't hope for much.

chrisisall

4EverBonded wrote:

By the way, I'm an American, living overseas.

Well, my brother, it's up to people like us to show the world that we're mostly not at all like that... :-q

DarthDimi

And the spelling of 'asperscions' leaves much to be desired. And I'm not even a native English speaker. ;-)

Seriously though, denial is easy, ignorance is bliss. And some folks find political propaganda behind every corner or under every pebble of dust.

I would feel much better were I not so fully aware of the situation as it is. I might try to avoid the notion and live happily in utter blindness. But my political interests are close to nil and my understanding of GW is based on neutral, scientific publications, where a theory is actually backed up by arguments, by data and above all, by bright reasoning. I'm not a leftie by the way, couldn't stomach being one for that matter. When I'm not entirely apolitical, I find myself everything but a leftie regarding most aspects of life. Only in a minor few things do I gravitate more to the left. My preferences, if any, are nuanced enough to look for what I like best on both sides.

The quoted American clearly has a very narrow view on things: he tries to demonstrate others' unscientific behaviour but manages not to supply objective counterarguments himself. It's science all over the place with discussions like these. Granted, to what propagandising means the numbers concerning GW are used by some people, is beyond our control. Some indeed may only pretend to care (or to not care) for the sake of more electoral gain. But denying GW is like denying the hole in the ozone layer while our very CFC's were actually reducing its thickness below critical minima. History has caught up with these nay-sayers and we are now perfectly aware of ozone depletion. GW will just be another struggle of science versus stubbornness. At least we, scientists, have our views based on indisputable facts, have them tested time and again, and work vigorously to also devise a solution. It's easy to say there's no such thing as global warming because that effectively fires you from the responsibility to help us do something about it. It's also cowardly. And since our American friend brought the holocaust into this (which I find tasteless to be frank), those who said "we didn't know about it" actually meant "we knew about it but wouldn't dare do something about it". I'm not that guy, sorry.

chrisisall

DarthDimi wrote:

And since our American friend brought the holocaust into this (which I find tasteless to be frank)

I'll apologise for that, maybe I should have tried to edit that out, but I just got this response from that idiot today, and I guess I'm a little desensitized since he's on a science fiction site I go to & hear this nonsense from him (and a couple of others) on a weekly basis... thankfully, they are in the definite minority! What troubles me particularly, you can see he has some education, and expresses himself well- I'd expect someone with these views to be totally incapable of even basic sentence structure... :-?

00Beast

Global Warming= JOKE

Enough said!

DarthDimi

00Beast wrote:

Global Warming= JOKE

Enough said!

Beast is trying to be funny, I'm sure. ;-)

thelivingroyale

I like to think I do my bit. I turn the lights off when I leave the room, recycle, etc.

MrBrown

Cigarette smokers are responsible for global warming.

JWESTBROOK

My point has always been that things like electric cars and nuclear power plants make their alternatives look ridiculously expensive. If you look at the cost of maintenance and daily driving for a Tesla Model S compared to a similar BMW M5, you get better performance and will save nearly $8,000 dollars in fuel in just 5 years from the Tesla. Not to mention you're saving the planet.

Yes recycling and recycled materials are often expensive, but only because of the competition from the non-recycled alternative.

It's going to take a major world-wide shift in culture, education, and society to do what has to be done. Unfortunately we're only human.

chrisisall

MrBrown wrote:

Cigarette smokers are responsible for global warming.

I personally hold to the belief (for now at any rate) the the warming trend is not entirely man-made, but severely man-assisted.
In any case, devising meaningful solutions to the problem as it stands should trump simple debates on the cause. Do fire-fighters debate the cause of the fire, or go about saving lives?

JWESTBROOK wrote:

Unfortunately we're only human.

Speak for yourself; I am from Vulcan.

RogueAgent

It's certainly a reality that's for sure!

JWESTBROOK

chrisisall wrote:

JWESTBROOK wrote:

Unfortunately we're only human.

Speak for yourself; I am from Vulcan.

Even worse.

DarthDimi

I honestly do not necessarily think of it as a bad thing, though I'm worried of course. I'm worried for mankind but I'm happy for the Earth. Our planet deserves better than its dominant inhabitants.

chrisisall

It was 40 degrees & raining in northern Norway recently (north of the Arctic Circle); that's kinda not supposed to happen there much. :O
Meanwhile in the teens here, a LOT south of the AC.
Whatever. Somewhere Hugo Drax is laughing.

DarthDimi

Reviving this thread because of the big focus on climate change these days. Another attempt in Paris - right now - to get the world leaders to agree that something must be done fast.

Any thought?

ThomasCrown76

Mankind will kill each other before the earth kills mankind

patb

The earth is 4.5 billion years old and has coped with far bigger threats than us. It will get over us and move on. For us to think we threaten the planet and can "save the planet" is pure vanity and a complete failure to see our tiny, tiny role within the context of the Earth's previous and future life.

bondjames

patb wrote: »

The earth is 4.5 billion years old and has coped with far bigger threats than us. It will get over us and move on. For us to think we threaten the planet and can "save the planet" is pure vanity and a complete failure to see our tiny, tiny role within the context of the Earth's previous and future life.

That's true, but I don't really think it's about earth surviving though. It's about it surviving in a way that we as a species can still inhabit it without going extinct. Sure we will evolve, but if the rate of change in the earth's inhabitability exceeds our ability as a species to evolve to such change, then we are out of luck. History shows that it's inevitable. It's just a matter of time.