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As for why Vesper doesn't give Le Chiffre the money directly, well that would immediately put MI6 onto Vesper.
Le Chiffre was just trying, successfully, to sow seeds of doubt in Bond's mind.
Well, QOS decided he was innocent. CR doesn't seem to know either way.
Vesper gave the money to Mr White, so she could have given it to Le Chiffre, or promised it to Le Chiffre, or Le Chiffre could have pursued this course of action with someone apparently cooperating with him. (Though to be fair, the movie doesn't clarify whether Vesper, Mathis, or anyone at all is cooperating with Le Chiffre) The deal she made with Mr White could have been made with Le Chiffre, and earlier, especially if she was giving her life to save James, as speculated by M.
In any case, when Le Chiffre talks about getting the account number from Vesper, it makes no sense whatsoever, and James should have recognized that like I did!
The motivation for tricking James about Mathis doesn't make obvious sense. It's pure audience misdirection, as is Mathis's behavior in the end section of the movie.
But I only brought this all up for the hundredth time (!) because of the comment about CR being a comparatively well-written film. It really, really isn't.
As for why she didn't send Le Chiffre the money directly, that's because he was dead by the time she could access the money.
:)) Thanks for clarifying! :))
But Le Chiffre tortures Bond for a password he probably can't use, when his apparent accomplice in the other room has the ability to get him the money. Capturing Bond and torturing him and tricking the audience about Mathis is all a big waste of time.
It's okay to be confused about this though: Bond and Le Chiffre are also confused!
Vesper doesn't have the password. Only Bond does. So she can't access the money.
Eventually, once she gains Bond's trust, she learns the password to release the funds and is even granted permission by Bond to pick up the money from the bank. Why did Vesper have to get the money herself instead of one of White's men? Presumably Bond notified the bank he was sending her in his stead.
Would Le Chiffre have managed to retrieve the funds with only the password? It might have been difficult, but if he did it remotely, especially with a member of the treasury to help with the subterfuge, perhaps he could have pulled it off.
Vesper was abducted, with or without her foreknowledge, to get Bond to cough up the password. He might not care about his own life for the sake of the mission, but would he be so willing to let Vesper die? She wasn't really being tortured in the other room. Her scream was staged. Or they did something to get a real scream out of her.
The part where she says, "Mathis needs me?" Likely a message from Le Chiffre simply telling her to tell Bond that Mathis needs her and to go outside.
Telling Bond that Mathis was the mole puts any possible suspicion he might have toward Vesper out of mind so that they can use her to get the password out of him.
No. When she leaves to get money for them to go on a month-long boat trip, Bond gets a call from M because the Treasury had not received the winnings (electronically) as they should have. Bond is surpsised to learn that they don't have the money. Vesper was supposed to have sent the money to them when Mendel came around. But she sent the money somewhere else. Bond calls Mendel to try to figure out what happened and he realizes Vesper sent the money to some unknown account rather than to the Treasury. Did you think Bond sent her to pick up millions in cash that they were going to take back to London in a suitcase?! :))
I don't think you understood what was going on here. But again, it is terribly written, and you're hardly to blame!
EDIT: Just to help--the winner enters an account number and a password, and the winnings are sent to whatever that account is. Le Chiffre does not need an account number from Vesper. It's not a 'username' or something. No account number is registered with the Swiss bank and has to be entered. You can enter any account number you want. Vesper entered a different account number than the Treasury's account number she was supposed to use. Le Chiffre would not have any use for the Treasury's account number.
It is meant to be the money or else there's no reason for her to be delivering a suitcase to Gettler.
You're right, I had a lapse regarding what's going on in Venice. It's been a while since I've actually watched Casino Royale.
Bond assumed Vesper had the money electronically wired to the treasury. Instead, she sent it to an account of her own. Instead of getting the money for the rest of their trip, she was withdrawing the full amount in cash to deliver to Gettler.
Why could she not have sent it to any other account in the world? Well, she still works for the treasury and has to account somehow for what happens to the money. If she sends it to her own account, she could possibly explain she didn't have the account number for the treasury when she released the funds and simply moved it there for safekeeping. After transferring the money to White's men, she could say they forced her to withdraw the funds for them. Not an airtight plan by any means, but it's still probably Vesper's best option for getting them the money and not being revealed as an outright traitor.
What?
What?
Clearly!
Dude, I understand that she's taking Gettler a suitcase of all the money. I'm the one here who remembers what happened in the movie! You don't need to explain it back to me! I don't know what I said that makes you think I didn't understand that. She sent the money to a secret account and was delivering it to the bad guys, but she told Bond she was going to get money to pay her half of the trip.
You thought Bond was sending her in his place to pick up the winnings, which is not remotely similar to anything that happens in the movie. Bond, and the Treasury, and the audience, thought she had sent that money when Mendel came. I have no idea what you're trying to assert now.
But you're not explaining anything. You didn't even remember what happened in the movie and you're making things up. And the only relevance to my point about this movie not being well-written is that you're demonstrating my point by not having any idea what happened in the movie's key scenes!
I agree that a few Bond movies can be overly complicated, but I can explain the other 24. I've never seen anyone be able to explain the central events of Casino Royale!
It "checks out" if you make up replacement plot details instead of recalling the actual film, granted. :))
(Vesper using what you call "her own account" has nothing to do with anything I've said.)
I'm late to this party but the Mathis line from LeChiffre always makes me so upset. :)) Extreme contrivance. But yeah, I suppose in the logic of the film, LeChiffre knows that only Mathis and Vesper could be suspected as the traitors by Bond, and so he doubles down on Mathis being the traitor to protect his own operation.
I have a hard time understanding why everyone has such a problem with the number / password / account stuff. It's all a little ambiguous but the way they've done it don't harm the film at all.
Vesper being "interrogated" in the other room I guess is just for show. It was only Bond being interrogated for the password, but of course this scene would be when Vesper says "I won't give you the account number if you kill Bond, so you have to keep him alive if you want your money". As for why the LeChiffre account isn't the original account, and Vesper uses her own account, it seems like someone explained it well enough above, and also, it's needed for the film to happen.
I feel like I've never been too confused by the central events of CR. It has stretchy writing in places, but I don't think it's quite as bad as you make out.
@SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ (best username), I read somewhere they originally planned a ski sequence but they simply wanted to go bigger. The one scene in this sequence I really love is when the plane is gaining altitude and we're watching it head on, and in the background one of the vehicles explodes. Love a scene where a few different things are going on in-frame like this.
Similar to the lair escape at the end, with Bond and Madeleine flying away by helicopter, and Blofeld and his convoy are escaping the other way by car. Illustrates the whole lair was just a chess move in Spectre's operations.
I think it's just me that goes on about it! I just do it often. :)) It's just hilarious to me how much they messed up the plotting and how few people notice, even while inventing alternative versions in their memory! But no, nobody explained it and everybody is confused about what's going on. :)) For example, the one guy completely forgot multiple scenes in the movie about this. And you just talked about Vesper giving Le Chiffre an account number. Vesper is supposed to send the money to the Treasury. If Le Chiffre somehow enters "her account number" and Bond's password, he would just be sending the money to the Treasury. It makes no goddamn sense. The writers got confused.
This is an incorrect recollection of the events of the film.
Her account number never linked to the Treasury. If LeChiffre somehow enters her account number, it would go to Vesper's third account, which is where it did go, before she withdrew it to give to Gettler. LeChiffre had no idea Vesper was planning to give the money to Gettler/Quantum.
It's reasonable to assume LeChiffre would have *thought* the money went to the treasury, but his plan would be to "log in" and "transfer" the money from the treasury account (using the account number/password) from the Treasury account to his own account. It would be the worry if anyone interrogated me for my account number and password.
The third account / Gettler stuff was all backup by Quantum in case LeChiffre failed, which he did. Quantum connected LC to the Ugandan freedom fighters so that he could store their money, use it to manipulate the stock market to make massive gains for himself and ostensibly Quantum as well, and when LC lost the money and lost the trust of the freedom fighters, he made Quantum look bad so they executed him. LeChiffre was just a contractor. And he certainly wasn't a member of Spectre (thanks, Spectre).
EDIT: It's possible the film confused you by showing LeChiffre trying to get the account info first, and then showing Bond/Vesper using the account info to deposit the money.
Clearly what LeChiffre was trying to do was get the information so he could break into the account and transfer the money to himself, not use the account info to deposit the money.
The film did a fine job outlining what's happening in it but I can see it going over the heads of some I suppose.
Could have been cool, but I think I prefer what we got to a snowmobile chase. Similarities to Skyfall would have been pretty apparent like you say.
I think what always made it unclear for me is the weird in-joke during Mathis' death scene. I guess the whole 'Is Mathis your cover name... well it's not a very good one, is it?' line is meant to be a reference to the fact that Giancarlo Giannini is Italian while the name Mathis is French (hilarious, I know...)
I mean, I always interpreted that as it being his codename for Quantum/Spectre, and he was possibly connected to Quantum all along (which makes no sense), whereas the script possibly means it in the sense that it's his cover name for MI6? But we've never had any indication before of him having to use such a cover name... Weird writing...
I immediately took it and always will as the very darkest humor between them in his final moments.
Returning to his former South America stomping grounds, Mathis simply didn't use a cover name. It was the death of him.
I think the issue with the line for me was that I simply didn't understand it. And to be fair, it's not exactly a joke most people would immediately understand or even register as a joke, at least if they're not French or Italian (possibly). So as a result it took me out of the film and I presumably read something into it that wasn't intended.
Add to that whatever the hell's going on in CR (I know it technically makes sense that Le Chiffre would point the finger at Mathis to throw Bond off, but it's contrived as all hell).
To be honest, I think it would have been interesting if Mathis had been some sort of Quantum operative, albeit one whose loyalties weren't particularly fixed and were dependent on what benefitted him most at any given time. It would have made Bond needing his help and even his death more impactful.
Yeah the dialogue in the Craig films isn't always meant to be taken literally, but I don't think it has to distract. In the best case it generates more thought.
M says she thinks 007 remaining emotionally detached isn't a problem for him. He acknowledges, agrees.
And the plot plays out to show that is specifically his problem after all.
Yeah, there's always going to be certain lines and exchanges which aren't meant to be taken literally. I just think that particular line wasn't very clear (or indeed funny) and confused me the first few times I watched it.
I honestly apologize to everyone for persisting here, but I really want to be wrong about this!
(But it doesn't look like I am)
It's quite simple: When Mendel brings the encryptor thing, Vesper enters an account number, and Bond enters a password, and that's it. Bond (and the Treasury) now believe that the Treasury has the money.
The acct no and password are not some kind of log in for a bank account. At the clinic, they didn't 'log in' to an account and then Mendel left! Entering them into that encryptor is how you send the money. Bond's password is only good for doing that. 'Vesper' does not become the password to the account you send the money to--that is not how anything works. So this bit: is just mistaken. The bank's system with that encryptor is not like you logging into your bank account.
So again, this stuff: is confused. The Swiss bank's encryptor does not change the password of any bank account in the world. 'Vesper' is a one-time-use password.
Any "third accounts" are not relevant. All Le Chiffre can do with Vesper's account number and Bond's password is send the money to Vesper's account number (whatever it is) with the encryptor. That is absolutely it. And if he's in a position to do that, he might as well put in his own acct number.
So what you're saying doesn't line up with this or how anything else works. Given that Le Chiffre very nearly kills two people he (thinks he) needs alive, it shouldn't be hard to admit there are some other leaky components to this script. It's possible that Haggis or Purvis & Wade confused themselves as you've confused yourself here. When you think of an account number and password, you think about logging into your personal bank account, it's understandable. They also had this goofy thing going where Le Chiffre tells the audience that Mathis is a baddy, and then Mathis starts behaving like a baddy, so this account number business came into play to make it further look like Vesper is in the same situation as Bond--having info Le Chiffre needs. But again, none of it makes any sense.
Your story is not the first one I've read! There are many different fan fiction versions of it! Nobody knows what's meant to be going on.
This is another example. M is obviously wrong about what she says, but it's weird, because Bond fails to stay emotionally detached from the start of the movie all the way to the end of the movie. When he says "The bitch is dead", it's more bravado. Nothing has changed at all. I don't know if acting choices were strange or what, but I can't imagine the script intended for Bond to be totally emotionally attached from start to finish, with M first telling him he needs to be emotionally detached, then suggesting he's too emotionally detached, and all the while Bond hasn't changed at all. Most odd.
I take issue with you telling me I’m confused. It’s very clear what goes on in Casino Royale. Have I done too much legwork to fill in gaps that shouldn’t be necessary? Maybe. Has the film left me in a state of delirious confusion? Absolutely not.
Maybe you can do Octopussy next.
I only meant as confused as the screenwriters! (Thinking the password does more than it possibly can)
On some level, it is clear what happens in CR--the emotional beats land: Le Chiffre has to torture Bond and get an account number from Vesper because he thinks he'll get money. Vesper betrays Bond and kills herself. That is clear. None of the mechanics behind it make sense, and at least one of these characters is deeply confused and wasting his time, but I get what they're going for. I only brought this up because it was claimed that CR stands "head and shoulders" above the other Craig films in the writing department, and yet no two people can agree on the central events of the film!
Octopussy, hmmm.... That's tricky. Where CR is very simple and straightforward and makes no sense, Octopussy is very complicated and may or may not make sense, which sort of works to that film's advantage! (But anyway, this guy Orlov has his bomb plot so he offers jewelery to Octopussy's circus to get access to a base)
From Quantum’s point of view it would be less important to them to get the money (which they never expected as part of the deal anyway- not the whole amount) than it would be to kill Le Chiffre, as it looks bad for business that a warlord who came to them for help ended up dead. Better to make an example of the person who caused the problem. So Le Chiffre has to get out, or go to the Americans as he explains. It’s a mistake to think that he and Vesper are working together at the end. She could have promised, during torture, to give it to LC later in return for Bond’s life, but as Bond would have to enter the password willingly he would then be out of LC’s clutches to do so, so there would be no reason for her to give the money to LC: Bond would be safe. LC wouldn’t be able to trust her to do it.
A right old pickle to be trying to get some money to save two threatened boyfriends! :D
I mean, CR has its share of contrivances (I don't think the script's shoehorning in of red herrings does any favours) but it undeniably does its job for the majority of viewers.
Also, Obanno is already dead by the time Bond needs to buy back in, which covers the question of why Vesper doesn’t give Bond the money (as ultimately giving Bond the money is the same as giving Quantum the money): there’s no one for Quantum to pay back anymore so ultimately they have no concern how much money is in the pot. It matters less than killing Le Chiffre. Perhaps Vesper actually just wants Bond out of the game because she’s starting to care for him (this is post shower scene).
To be honest, it's not uncommon for movies to have plots which, on deeper inspection, make little sense. It doesn't matter if audiences are engrossed in the film itself. If we're going by pure logic alone, CR much like many Bond films will always fall apart to some extent. I mean, why does MI6 even make Bond go through the game at all? It's an incredibly daft and risky thing to do. Just work with the Americans/whoever else and arrest Le Chiffre, the man's essentially a known international terrorist and they know where he's going to be.