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Anyone else feel like Brosnan was the "fall guy"?

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  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I thought the concept of the premise in all of Brosnan's movies were great. The problem, however, was that they were horribly realised and failed in their execution.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 2013 Posts: 17,827
    doubleoego wrote:
    The problem, however, was that they were horribly realised and failed in their execution.
    Horribly? Failed?? Wow, I was unaware of this, except in the case of DAD.
    The truth is, IN MY OPINION, Brosnan's first three are better than MOST of Moore's films and at least a couple of Connery's. That's not 'horrible' or 'failed' in my book.
    :-\"
  • ultraboxultrabox
    Posts: 194
    chrisisall wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    The problem, however, was that they were horribly realised and failed in their execution.
    Horribly? Failed?? Wow, I was aware of this, except in the case of DAD.
    The truth is, IN MY OPINION, Brosnan's first three are better than MOST of Moore's films and at least a couple of Connery's. That's not 'horrible' or 'failed' in my book.
    :-\"

    I agree with Brosnan's entries may be better than most of Moore's, however I feel like Moore's best is a class better than any of Brosnan's entries.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    hoppimike wrote:
    Also... look what I bought today!!

    Qf0G0Mx.jpg

    You masochists astound me. You find so much joy in heading to check out with this thing, yet miles away people are being put under duress by intelligence agencies testing out a new method of torture. Unbelievable.
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    Posts: 3,494
    ultrabox wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    The problem, however, was that they were horribly realised and failed in their execution.
    Horribly? Failed?? Wow, I was aware of this, except in the case of DAD.
    The truth is, IN MY OPINION, Brosnan's first three are better than MOST of Moore's films and at least a couple of Connery's. That's not 'horrible' or 'failed' in my book.
    :-\"

    I agree with Brosnan's entries may be better than most of Moore's, however I feel like Moore's best is a class better than any of Brosnan's entries.

    Not saying everyone should agree, but I would rate my two favorite Moore's in FYEO and LALD higher than my two favorite Brosnan's in TND and GE. Every time. Moore was the innovator between the two of them. His approach worked for him because of that and because, quite frankly, he had the skills to do it.

  • ultraboxultrabox
    Posts: 194
    SirHenryLeeChaChing wrote:
    ultrabox wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    The problem, however, was that they were horribly realised and failed in their execution.
    Horribly? Failed?? Wow, I was aware of this, except in the case of DAD.
    The truth is, IN MY OPINION, Brosnan's first three are better than MOST of Moore's films and at least a couple of Connery's. That's not 'horrible' or 'failed' in my book.
    :-\"

    I agree with Brosnan's entries may be better than most of Moore's, however I feel like Moore's best is a class better than any of Brosnan's entries.

    Not saying everyone should agree, but I would rate my two favorite Moore's in FYEO and LALD higher than my two favorite Brosnan's in TND and GE. Every time. Moore was the innovator between the two of them. His approach worked for him because of that and because, quite frankly, he had the skills to do it.

    That's how I see it. I think FYEO, TSWLM, and possibly LALD is better than Brosnan's best, though I think GE, TND, and possibly TWINE is better than OP, TMWTGG, MR, and AVFAK. Just because Brosnan's entries are better than most of Moore's still doesn't put him up there for me. Some of Moore's entries are clunkers, but his good ones are really good.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    LOL, there is NO Moore Bond I enjoy more than GE & TND.
    And I love TMWTGG, TSWLM & OP!
  • ultraboxultrabox
    Posts: 194
    chrisisall wrote:
    LOL, there is NO Moore Bond I enjoy more than GE & TND.
    And I love TMWTGG, TSWLM & OP!

    Okay, and you're entitled to that. That's how they shake out for me I suppose. I don't dislike Brosnan as Bond, as I said I prefer him to most of Moore's entries.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    Yeah I would take Brosnan's first three over nearly all of Moore's entries, bar maybe LALD and TSWLM which are better than TND and TWINE but are about equal with GE for me.
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    GE, TND and TWINE are on a par with OP and AVTAK (Moore's worst). Everything else in the Bond franchise is better.

    As for DAD, let's not go there.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    Well I already know you hate Brosnan, but you also think MR is a better Moore film than OP
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Well I already know you hate Brosnan, but you also think MR is a better Moore film than OP
    Yes. I'm afraid MR is a guilty pleasure of mine (ashamedly) along with DAF. I shouldn't like either of them due to their ridiculous plots and OTT'ness, but for some reason I like both these films, although once Jaws falls in love and Bond ends up in space in MR I lose interest.

    Maybe its a childhood thing. I saw these as a kid, and a nostalgia factor obviously plays a part here.



  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited February 2013 Posts: 3,497
    Over the years, TWINE has become my favorite Brosnanbond. It has a great main villain, and a good dynamic between M & 007. The problems (overly opening boat chase, Richards, a wasted Carlyle, Goldie & the silly BMW destruction) don't bother me that much anymore.

    Anyone else?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    I have no real problems with TWINE.
  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    edited February 2013 Posts: 290
    ultrabox wrote:
    I also think part of it was Brosnan didn't have the benefit of the political unrest that the others did, well with the exception of post 9/11 DAD. GE had post Cold War story lines, but aside from that I didn't buy anything they were selling from villain motive standpoint. Everyone else had the Cold War, Craig has post 9/11 terrorism to ground his movies.

    I actually completely agree - I thought of this too.

    Although GoldenEye did it beautifully, ofc :)
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    hoppimike wrote:
    Also... look what I bought today!!

    Qf0G0Mx.jpg

    You masochists astound me. You find so much joy in heading to check out with this thing, yet miles away people are being put under duress by intelligence agencies testing out a new method of torture. Unbelievable.

    I lol'd ^^
    JamesCraig wrote:
    Over the years, TWINE has become my favorite Brosnanbond. It has a great main villain, and a good dynamic between M & 007. The problems (overly opening boat chase, Richards, a wasted Carlyle, Goldie & the silly BMW destruction) don't bother me that much anymore.

    Anyone else?

    It's ok... but I didn't find the villains or plot very exciting. Brosnan as usual was wicked, but the key aspects of the writing just... IMO... sucked. The speedboat chase was good though!

    And of course John Cleese!! Possibly the highlight haha ^_^

    Overall I liked the movie, but I just felt those core points I mentioned (villains and plot) could have been way better.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    jetsetwilly wrote:
    GE, TND and TWINE are on a par with OP and AVTAK (Moore's worst). Everything else in the Bond franchise is better.

    As for DAD, let's not go there.

    You're insane.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote:
    jetsetwilly wrote:
    GE, TND and TWINE are on a par with OP and AVTAK (Moore's worst). Everything else in the Bond franchise is better.

    As for DAD, let's not go there.

    You're insane.

    Why?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    JamesCraig wrote:
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote:
    jetsetwilly wrote:
    GE, TND and TWINE are on a par with OP and AVTAK (Moore's worst). Everything else in the Bond franchise is better.

    As for DAD, let's not go there.

    You're insane.

    Why?

    TWINE and especially GE are far superior in almost every aspect to OP and AVTAK. I'd give AVTAK the edge in the villain department but it failed in almost every other department. Brosnan's best (GE) is just as good as Moore's best (Spy).
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    I like GE, but it looks very dated. Brosnan isn't always convincing either.

    It's still ahead of DAD and TND imho.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote:
    Brosnan's best (GE) is just as good as Moore's best (Spy).
    I'd say a bit better even.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote:
    I have no real problems with TWINE.

    Me neither, although I expect to like it more than I do every time I stick it on. If I had to pick, I'd go TND. There's a tone to it that I enjoy and I think Arnold's score is probably his best. It's on a par with OP in that I think the two are solid, without being anything extraordinary. I think the sentiment behind TND is also one of the best in the canon, although in hindsight would have probably been handled better during the current era.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    RC7 wrote:
    If I had to pick, I'd go TND. There's a tone to it that I enjoy and I think Arnold's score is probably his best. It's on a par with OP in that I think the two are solid, without being anything extraordinary.
    I see what you're saying, but for ME, Wai Lin & the killing of Kaufman make it extraordinary. I just *LOVE* Lin & Bond's repartee.
    And the whole I'm crazy powerful, so I get to do what I want to achieve my goals thing is SOOO relevant today, where we see our leaders in bed with corporations, feeding us genetically modified foods with brand new viruses attached, getting us to accept drone strikes abroad to test them for future domestic use, drilling & fracking instead of solar & wind progress, all in the name of power & profit.
    Yeah, Elliot Carver is the poster boy for all that's wrong with our world now, IMO...
  • ultraboxultrabox
    Posts: 194
    hoppimike wrote:
    ultrabox wrote:
    I also think part of it was Brosnan didn't have the benefit of the political unrest that the others did, well with the exception of post 9/11 DAD. GE had post Cold War story lines, but aside from that I didn't buy anything they were selling from villain motive standpoint. Everyone else had the Cold War, Craig has post 9/11 terrorism to ground his movies.

    I actually completely agree - I thought of this too.

    Although GoldenEye did it beautifully, ofc :)

    Yeah, I'll give it to GoldenEye, they did a solid post cold war movie. Though I feel like anything past that would've been redundant.
    JamesCraig wrote:
    Over the years, TWINE has become my favorite Brosnanbond. It has a great main villain, and a good dynamic between M & 007. The problems (overly opening boat chase, Richards, a wasted Carlyle, Goldie & the silly BMW destruction) don't bother me that much anymore.

    Anyone else?

    I love TWINE. It's a fun watch, but I don't think it's a great movie by any stretch. I just enjoy it for what it is.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited February 2013 Posts: 3,497
    TWINE will never come close to my top ten or even in it, but yes, it's enjoyable.
  • ultraboxultrabox
    Posts: 194
    JamesCraig wrote:
    TWINE will never come close to my top ten or even in it, but yes, it's enjoyable.

    Same with me. I'm not sure where it ranks, maybe around 15-18 or so. But I always have fun watching it.

  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,229
    ultrabox wrote:
    I also think part of it was Brosnan didn't have the benefit of the political unrest that the others did, well with the exception of post 9/11 DAD. GE had post Cold War story lines, but aside from that I didn't buy anything they were selling from villain motive standpoint. Everyone else had the Cold War, Craig has post 9/11 terrorism to ground his movies.

    True. The nineties were borderline non-event, if one thinks about it, and there are just so many megalomaniacal evil businessmen one can fight before getting repetitive. But in a way, the Brosnan era was a dress rehearsal for the Craig one. With all its flaws, TWINE brought a few things up that became much better exploited and developed afterwards: personal involvment for Bond and M, terrorism as the background, etc.

  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    Posts: 290
    GoldenEye gets a fair amount of bashing doesn't it ._.

    It's strange because it's easily in my top 5 films of all time. I think it's fantastic.

    I guess everyone enjoys films for different reasons though.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited February 2013 Posts: 3,497
    hoppimike wrote:
    GoldenEye gets a fair amount of bashing doesn't it ._.

    It's strange because it's easily in my top 5 films of all time. I think it's fantastic.

    I guess everyone enjoys films for different reasons though.

    For me, together with GF and TND the most overrated Bondfilm.
  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    Posts: 290
    JamesCraig wrote:
    hoppimike wrote:
    GoldenEye gets a fair amount of bashing doesn't it ._.

    It's strange because it's easily in my top 5 films of all time. I think it's fantastic.

    I guess everyone enjoys films for different reasons though.

    For me, together with GF and TND the most overrated Bondfilm.

    I think for me...

    - I love Martin Campbell's direction (in general)

    - Brosnan is a charismatic, stylish and likable Bond

    - It's chock-a-block with strong characters

    - Fantastic, memorable, witty script

    - Brilliant storyline echoing the fall of the Soviet Union and yet providing original material too

    - Sean Bean makes for a phenomenal villain


    Criticisms... pretty much none. I literally couldn't have improved on it if I tried.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    The script is not the worst of Brosnan's tenure, but fantastic? nah. :)>-
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