What was the Bond fan community's initial reaction when TND came out? More disappointing than QoS?

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  • Posts: 1,492
    TND was the first time I noiced something was off with the Bond films.

    There were bits that didn't work for me mainly Carver and the stunt casting. the whole thing seemed a step backwards after the Dalton years. But I enjoyed the music but thought Wai Lin was flat and uninteresting.

    QoS I loved from the off. My kind of Bond film. A tight thriller set in South America with a powerhouse Bond.

    I was never disapointed in QoS.
  • pachazo wrote:
    I enjoyed TND for the most part when it came out but I think it was because it quenched my thirst for "new Bond" at the time. Looking back at it now it's just another disappointing effort from the Brosnan era that didn't reach it's potential.

    As I said in the "originals' reviews" thread, many younger fans don't realize just how happy we were to get ANY new Bond film at the time, as the series was almost over after LTK. The vague feeling of disappointment after watching TND was glossed over by thinking that at least they were still making Bond films. For me personally, after CR came out there was this interesting retroactive reaction to some of the previous films; thinking "Why did I put up with *that*?". Almost like when someone finally gets out of a bad relationship that they've gotten used to and starts dating someone better, and then thinking "I can't believe that I used to think that they were the best I could do!".

  • Posts: 1,052
    TND was enjoyable the first time I saw it and has actually gone up in my estimation over they years, QOS on the other hand got a pretty easy ride critically I feel upon it's initial release. The first time I saw it i was tempted to not bother staying til the end, the actual disapointment was not great to me though, as I was in the small miniority that was not blown away by CR.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    For me personally, after CR came out there was this interesting retroactive reaction to some of the previous films; thinking "Why did I put up with *that*?". Almost like when someone finally gets out of a bad relationship that they've gotten used to and starts dating someone better, and then thinking "I can't believe that I used to think that they were the best I could do!".
    That's really funny that you put it that way. I saw CR & QOS ( liked them well enough), then I joined here & got persuaded to give Dalton's films a try, and there it was! The hard edge WITH the Bond elements I like so much!! AND PROPER GUNBARRELS!!!


  • chrisisall wrote:
    For me personally, after CR came out there was this interesting retroactive reaction to some of the previous films; thinking "Why did I put up with *that*?". Almost like when someone finally gets out of a bad relationship that they've gotten used to and starts dating someone better, and then thinking "I can't believe that I used to think that they were the best I could do!".
    That's really funny that you put it that way. I saw CR & QOS ( liked them well enough), then I joined here & got persuaded to give Dalton's films a try, and there it was! The hard edge WITH the Bond elements I like so much!! AND PROPER GUNBARRELS!!!


    That's the great thing about the Bond films, there are films for every type of fan.

  • There wasn't much of a fan community if at all in terms of the internet when TND came out. So neg views were piecemeal, as critics didn't like to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, they like to talk it up. Alexander Walker of the Standard was an exception, saying it was a long way down from GE. There was talk that the shambolic production process was a problem.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    There wasn't much of a fan community if at all in terms of the internet when TND came out. So neg views were piecemeal, as critics didn't like to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, they like to talk it up. Alexander Walker of the Standard was an exception, saying it was a long way down from GE.
    Dalton's movies came out at a bad time for me having just lost my Mom, so I kind of didn't process them (or much) well, so by the time GE came out, the last Bond before it that I actually remembered well was FYEO, and that's what I suppose I compared it to. If I'd been in the right place to absorb the Dalton Bonds, I suppose I might have considered Pierce's to be a bit of a come down... but as it is I loved them then, and still now.
  • Posts: 15,106
    pachazo wrote:
    I enjoyed TND for the most part when it came out but I think it was because it quenched my thirst for "new Bond" at the time. Looking back at it now it's just another disappointing effort from the Brosnan era that didn't reach it's potential.

    As I said in the "originals' reviews" thread, many younger fans don't realize just how happy we were to get ANY new Bond film at the time, as the series was almost over after LTK. The vague feeling of disappointment after watching TND was glossed over by thinking that at least they were still making Bond films. For me personally, after CR came out there was this interesting retroactive reaction to some of the previous films; thinking "Why did I put up with *that*?". Almost like when someone finally gets out of a bad relationship that they've gotten used to and starts dating someone better, and then thinking "I can't believe that I used to think that they were the best I could do!".

    I think you sum up really well. I was EXTATIC when GE came out, then there were rumors of troubles during the production of TND that got me worried, so when it was released I LOVED it, almost as much as GE. In fact, during the Brosnan era I was ever disappointed only when DAD was released, which made me see things in a new light and I grew more critical of his whole tenure. Now I find it disappointing overall and I consider TND one of the weakest Bond films. Not weak as bad per se, but generic, unimaginative and by the number. It is more a 90s action movie than a Bond movie. QOS is flawed, but I much prefer it and for all its flaws I find it underrated. And it was bound to disappoint after CR.
  • Posts: 11,425
    actonsteve wrote:
    TND was the first time I noiced something was off with the Bond films.

    There were bits that didn't work for me mainly Carver and the stunt casting. the whole thing seemed a step backwards after the Dalton years. But I enjoyed the music but thought Wai Lin was flat and uninteresting.

    QoS I loved from the off. My kind of Bond film. A tight thriller set in South America with a powerhouse Bond.

    I was never disapointed in QoS.

    Strange. For me the big step backwards after Dalton was GE. After I'd begun to come terms with the fact we had a blancmange in the lead role, I actually thought TND was a significant improvement. When I say 'significant', it's all relative of course, as I'd probably put TND fourth from bottom. However, I still regard TND as the closest Brozza ever came to a decent Bond movie. As others have noted, the first half is moderately well done and the film embraced a nice mid-90s slick aesthetic, as opposed to the tired 80s hangover feel of GE. Brosnan is at his 'best' in TND, playing it relatively straight. Michelle Yeoh, being of a similar age to Brosnan, actually seemed like a better Bond girl IMO, and Brozza seemed pretty relaxed around her. I thought the basic premise was entertaining enough (if predictable) and although it limps to a conclusion, it has some enjoyable moments. The PST is in my opinion one of the better ones from the past 25 years. Had KD Lang's Surrender been upfront I'd rank the film may be slightly higher.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited March 2013 Posts: 12,480
    Siberia wrote:
    I like how no one felt any inclination to answer the original poster's question.

    The "fan community" at the time was limited to the Usenet group and to a handful of magazines. The alt.fan.james-bond archive is still available on Google Groups if you want to see what people thought of Tomorrow Never Dies at the time.

    Not correct. I did answer it (several posts back).
    TND was thoroughly enjoyed by my group of friends and was a solid success. Google all you want, that doesn't change what happened in my world. Plus many others around the world enjoyed it, whether you want to see that or not.

  • Posts: 1,314
    @chrisisall
    Plenty wrong with the climax. Bond firing off multiple machine guns like ED209, throwing stars in the throat, stamping on people's heads. The violence wasn't classy enough for my Bond. Plus we have the obligatory Girl who is Bonds equal - a phrase which fills me with dread. Weak as piss puns ("maybe he'll take a cheque").

    Probably looked better on paper and looked like a lightweight retread of several other films' climaxes.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Speaking of the Internet community at the time, does anyone remember Kimberly last's site. It was the one go to source online in the mid 90s
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Just FYI to those who may not know of this thread, Thelordflasheart mentioned it a few posts back: The Originals thread - us older members (who first saw Sean as Bond in the theatres) write detailed reviews for all of the Bond films. The thread title is: For Original Fans (1962-1972)- Casino Royale Reviews. (We are currently reviewing CR, obviously, but we started with Dr. No and have moved forward chronologically).
    TND was sliced and diced pretty well, as they all are. And personally it remains one of my favorite Bond films. This is SirHenry's ongoing thread; if of interest, please check it out. I for one enjoy lengthy, well thought out reviews.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Matt007 wrote:
    @chrisisall
    Plenty wrong with the climax. Bond firing off multiple machine guns like ED209, throwing stars in the throat, stamping on people's heads.
    Pfffft. Nothing wrong with that stuff IMO.
    :))
  • Posts: 1,314
    Maybe I prefer my Bond to be a little more calculated, restrained when killing. I prefer Dent or Kauffman's deaths to another Arnie clone dishing out uncontrolled mayhem.

    That's one huge step forward that has been made with Craig's Bond. I can't remember any scenes where he is wildly shooting a machine gun. It tends to be Up close snd lersonal, which strengthens the character.

    It feels more mature and truer to the books, in my opinion.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Brosnan was always the machine gun Bond for me. Right from the PTS of GE there is machine gun fire going off everywhere. I partly blame Cambell, who obviously thinks it's important in a Bond movie. I seem to remember he included a fair bit in the opening chase in CRas well.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Matt007 wrote:
    I prefer Dent or Kauffman's deaths to another Arnie clone dishing out uncontrolled mayhem.
    Brosnan's Bond killed quite a few, yes, but dey were all BAD.
  • Thanks for all the feedback, guys! Super interesting opinions. It made me want to watch TND again.
  • Matt007 wrote:
    Speaking of the Internet community at the time, does anyone remember Kimberly last's site. It was the one go to source online in the mid 90s

    Yes, and sign of the times, all she got in return is she was excluded from the biggest "paper" fan club...
  • For me, TND was a disappointment. About 2/3 of the way through I remember feeling boredom, something I hadn't felt before in a Bond movie. The first half is good but it deteriorates into a loud tedious action movie with dreadful, aimless, bang crash wallop music. One of the worst Bond films.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 3,494
    Well, I'd have to say that I was not disappointed by TND and still enjoy the film to this day. Pierce to me hit his pinnacle in TND. I was however disappointed by QOS, but as others have said the bar was set much higher by CR as compared to GE. My disappointment with QOS was not with Craig, who I felt was every bit as strong as he was in CR and whose performance alone kept the movie from being nearly as poor as the likes of DAD, MR, DAF, TWINE, etc, but by the things I've mentioned before and will cover in great detail tomorrow when I review QOS in the originals thread. Things we all pretty much know. With GE, I didn't expect Pierce or the film to trump Dalton and GE is still not as good as either Dalton film in my book, and it was no surprise to me that it turned out that way for me. So while I prefer GE and TND, QOS still beats several entries and was at least a proper sequel that still managed to wrap up the Vesper/CR story while introducing a new group of bad guys that can be used in the future.

  • My reaction was disappointment. I was buzzing after Goldeneye (I was 18 in 1995) and when I got the video of TND in '97 I thought it was, well, crap.
    I have not seen it since as it made me vomit all over the lounge but I seem to remember thinking that the baddie was rubbish. All that one-handed keyboard typing was irritating and I also thought that the asian Bond girl wasn't a very good actress. I remember it being very big on the action side of things and basically it didn't even feel like a Bond film.
    0 / 10
  • I'd add that that year had two other movies that struck me as superior: Face/Off is a superlative thriller with terrific action scenes, and The Truman Show has a villain, Cristoff, who is everything Carver should have been imo.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 1,310
    Oh, Tomorrow Never Dies is not too bad at all. At least the film knows what it is, unlike QOS - which thinks it is Pride and Prejudice.
  • Posts: 5,634
    I did enjoy it when I first saw it on release, but subsequent viewings over the years, I have just lost interest in it. Nothing happens when Bond gets to South East Asia and I usually switch off at that point. All the action occurs in the first half when Bond is in Germany (not to mention the excellent pre credits sequence) and long before they get on the stealth boat (near the end), I'm usually asleep by then

    Having an actor the caliber of Pryce in a poor performance or insipid character didn't help things either. Once again, Sheryl Crow's theme intro is actually one of the best the franchise has to offer, so it wasn't all bad that year
  • Posts: 4,622
    I quite liked it when it came out. I saw it the usual 4x in theatre before I bought the vhs. It's the last new vhs that I bought btw.
    It picked up well I thought, off the tone of GE. GE was a better film, but TND was a worthy follow-up. All the Broz films were very-big-or-go-home affairs. I find all 4 fairly similar in tone.
    I watched TND last night. It looks great on blu-ray. What the Broz films did do well IMO, was manage to jam each film full of familiar Bond elements. By DAD though, the Broz era did seem a bit like big-Bond overkill, but still all 4 of his films are very colourful exciting big-budget Bond romps.
    They all provide a very visceral Bond enjoyment experience.
  • When I first saw TND, I actually preferred it to GE. Brosnan's portrayal of Bond seemed awkward and a bit forced in GE, and I think he seemed more comfortable in the role in TND before finally nailing it in TWINE.

    Currently, I would probably say GE is a better film, but I still think Brosnan gave a better performance in TND.

    And I wasn't at all disappointed in QoS.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    LeSamourai wrote:
    When I first saw TND, I actually preferred it to GE. Brosnan's portrayal of Bond seemed awkward and a bit forced in GE, and I think he seemed more comfortable in the role in TND before finally nailing it in TWINE.

    Currently, I would probably say GE is a better film, but I still think Brosnan gave a better performance in TND.

    And I wasn't at all disappointed in QoS.
    Agreed with all here, and nice to see you here, my friend! Welcome.

  • Posts: 5,634
    Maybe Brosnan was trying a bit too hard in Goldeneye, and appeared more relaxed in TND, or on his feet ? Yes, that's a good point

    It's not Brosnan's performance that year that gets me, it's just the film is so damn boring. As before, nothing worthwhile happens for a good half of it. The only redeeming features would be the superb pre credits sequence, Dr Kaufman discussion (I could shoot you from Stuttgart, and still have the desired effect), Sheryl Crow theme intro, Michelle Yeoh is a decent Bond girl, and there's really not much else. I think it's Brosnan's forgotten Bond release or odd man out of the four that he did. As You Only Live Twice was, with Sean Connery, as an equivalent
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 4,622
    I have trouble picking apart the Broz films. They all resonate very similar. Yes Broz did seem a little more at ease in TND. Broz could be quite convincing as Bond. He did have his moments, but he also seemed somewhat "off" at times. The other actors seem to bring a more even portrayal of the character, but all told he has his moments in each of his films, so he got the job done. And I am happy to pop in any of his films, just for the sheer Bondian spectacle of them.
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