The Living Daylights Appreciation

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    A third film certainly would have been a moment of truth on whether Dalton was going to be as fondly embraced as Connery and Moore.

    Good point on Connery, Moore and Craig having major upticks with their third films at the box office. TWINE pretty much did the same business as GE and TND, which was fine. DAD was the notable uptick for Brosnan.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    GF was a big event. TSWLM as well. TWINE, I've always felt, just came and went without too much buzz. Take the theme song for example. GF was mighty big, NDIT was a success. TWINE was "just" well-received. TB tried to repeat the beats of GF, MR evidently repeated those of TSWLM. But DAD was no TWNE 2.

    So in that sense, I too have always felt that TWINE was a different number 3 than the other ones.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    Wasn’t Madonna’s song the biggest song of Brosnan’s run? I mean, I think that says a lot.

    Admittedly, I like that song more than the other three. Though I have a soft spot for Tina Turner’s song, she always seemed like an artist they should have got way before the 90s and by the time they did she was no longer at her peak.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2019 Posts: 4,343
    Getafix wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Dalton was perfect.

    Unfortunately, the audience didn't connect with his films.

    I keep on reading this but is it true? TLD got great reviews and did good box office pretty much everywhere. Dalton was also well received as Bond.

    LTK underperformed at the BO in the US but did well at the European box office. And it also got decent reviews almost everywhere. And like every other Bond it still made a profit.

    A better start you could argue than Rog's first 2.

    TLD and LTK are among the three lowest grossing Bond films out of 24, with AVTAK in-between, adjusting for inflation. LALD is the fifth, just for the record, even tho TMWTGG commercially represented a massive drop. Dalton never made quite an impact with the general audiences, or at least this is what numbers say.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2019 Posts: 8,181
    I dunno, TLD looks like it did pretty well worldwide on this chart, but there was definitely a step down with LTK (it especially hurt in the US).

    https://m.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/James-Bond
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2019 Posts: 4,343
    Worldwide is #22, adjusting. TLD made 50 millions less than OP, globally. And yes, LTK was the real step down. The only Bond film that didn't break the 400 million dollars mark ($317,357,822, as for 2018 inflation).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    Adjusting for inflation, you're right. The 80s wasn't so great for Bond.

    Though I have LALD ranked 6th, behind #5 YOLT, #4 SP, #3 GF, #2 TB, and #1 SF
  • edited October 2019 Posts: 11,425
    And yet the 80s was great for Bond. One of the most consistently good decades for Bond after the 60s in my opinion. Even the weaker films - AVTAK and LTK - are still highly enjoyable.

    The 70s And 90s were the really wobbly decades IMO.

    He's always slated around here but I think Glen did an amazing job as director of those 5 films. Would have loved to have seen what he might have done directing Brosnan, who was not particularly well served by his directors IMO.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    Getafix wrote: »
    And yet the 80s was great for Bond. One of the most consistently good decades for Bond after the 60s in my opinion. Even the weaker films - AVTAK and LTK - are still highly enjoyable.

    The 70s And 90s were the really wobbly decades IMO.

    He's always slated around here but I think Glen did an amazing job as director of those 5 films. Would have loved to have seen what he might have done directing Brosnan, who was not particularly well served by his directors IMO.

    I agree the 80s churned out better Bond films than either the 70s and 90s. Even then, I've never been that big of a fan of John Glen's direction, and I wish someone else had been hired for Dalton's films, though TLD was truly Glen's peak.
  • edited October 2019 Posts: 11,425
    Whatever visual flair Glen lacks he more than compensates for with strong narrative, good pacing and editing and great action. A journeyman, but talented and skilled.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    I'd give more credit to Arthur Wooster for his handling of the action.

    Awhile back I gave his 2001 film THE POINT MEN a watch just to see how he was doing post-Bond, and maybe if he could have offered something to the Brosnan era. Even Alec Mills, the DP for TLD and LTK served for that film, and Maryam d'Abo is in the cast. It pretty much feels like an amalgamation of his 80s Bonds, but with all the weaknesses heightened. Right down to filming techniques that already felt antiquated by the 80s like that zoom in shot at the end. Frankly, Cubby was right to let him go after LTK.


  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Dalton's box office may have something to do with Marketing. I am not much aware nor have I did much research but TLD was 25th anniversary for the series but they should have hyped or promoted the film for the audience in a better way to gain more attention for film to perform at the box office. Anyways despite any box office numbers Dalton will remain my favorite bond.
  • Posts: 7,414
    I'd give more credit to Arthur Wooster for his handling of the action.

    Awhile back I gave his 2001 film THE POINT MEN a watch just to see how he was doing post-Bond, and maybe if he could have offered something to the Brosnan era. Even Alec Mills, the DP for TLD and LTK served for that film, and Maryam d'Abo is in the cast. It pretty much feels like an amalgamation of his 80s Bonds, but with all the weaknesses heightened. Right down to filming techniques that already felt antiquated by the 80s like that zoom in shot at the end. Frankly, Cubby was right to let him go after LTK.



    Arthur Wooster is an unsung hero. A great 2nd unit Director. When there was a clear out of personnel after LTK, they still kept on Arthur on for GE! He gets very little attention. Never seen him interviewed (apart from the making of doc on he Bond DVDs), am sure he has lots of behind the scenes stories!
  • Posts: 7,414
    Getafix wrote: »
    Whatever visual flair Glen lacks he more than compensates for with strong narrative, good pacing and editing and great action. A journeyman, but talented and skilled.

    I agree. And the action always served the story, not shoehorned in like some of the later films!
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    'Journeyman/Workman' like directors have always been better for Bond films.

    Bond film's don't need 'name' directors. Just straightforward competent ones.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I'd give more credit to Arthur Wooster for his handling of the action.

    Awhile back I gave his 2001 film THE POINT MEN a watch just to see how he was doing post-Bond, and maybe if he could have offered something to the Brosnan era. Even Alec Mills, the DP for TLD and LTK served for that film, and Maryam d'Abo is in the cast. It pretty much feels like an amalgamation of his 80s Bonds, but with all the weaknesses heightened. Right down to filming techniques that already felt antiquated by the 80s like that zoom in shot at the end. Frankly, Cubby was right to let him go after LTK.



    Arthur Wooster is an unsung hero. A great 2nd unit Director. When there was a clear out of personnel after LTK, they still kept on Arthur on for GE! He gets very little attention. Never seen him interviewed (apart from the making of doc on he Bond DVDs), am sure he has lots of behind the scenes stories!

    The fact the GE action is far inferior to the previous films suggests to me that Glen's departure was a major reason for that.
  • Posts: 7,414
    Getafix wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I'd give more credit to Arthur Wooster for his handling of the action.

    Awhile back I gave his 2001 film THE POINT MEN a watch just to see how he was doing post-Bond, and maybe if he could have offered something to the Brosnan era. Even Alec Mills, the DP for TLD and LTK served for that film, and Maryam d'Abo is in the cast. It pretty much feels like an amalgamation of his 80s Bonds, but with all the weaknesses heightened. Right down to filming techniques that already felt antiquated by the 80s like that zoom in shot at the end. Frankly, Cubby was right to let him go after LTK.



    Arthur Wooster is an unsung hero. A great 2nd unit Director. When there was a clear out of personnel after LTK, they still kept on Arthur on for GE! He gets very little attention. Never seen him interviewed (apart from the making of doc on he Bond DVDs), am sure he has lots of behind the scenes stories!

    The fact the GE action is far inferior to the previous films suggests to me that Glen's departure was a major reason for that.

    Maybe! I was surprised to see his name in the credits!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    Getafix wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I'd give more credit to Arthur Wooster for his handling of the action.

    Awhile back I gave his 2001 film THE POINT MEN a watch just to see how he was doing post-Bond, and maybe if he could have offered something to the Brosnan era. Even Alec Mills, the DP for TLD and LTK served for that film, and Maryam d'Abo is in the cast. It pretty much feels like an amalgamation of his 80s Bonds, but with all the weaknesses heightened. Right down to filming techniques that already felt antiquated by the 80s like that zoom in shot at the end. Frankly, Cubby was right to let him go after LTK.



    Arthur Wooster is an unsung hero. A great 2nd unit Director. When there was a clear out of personnel after LTK, they still kept on Arthur on for GE! He gets very little attention. Never seen him interviewed (apart from the making of doc on he Bond DVDs), am sure he has lots of behind the scenes stories!

    The fact the GE action is far inferior to the previous films suggests to me that Glen's departure was a major reason for that.

    I disagree. Aside from the hand to hand fight between Necros and the butler (and perhaps the buzzsaw yoyo), those types of scenes in Glen’s films as well as his second unit work in TSWLM and MR are frankly terrible, whereas the fight between Bond and Trevelyan feels like a breath of fresh air.










    That said, GE is the last time I think there was any good action in Brosnan’s run. The remaining films with Vic Armstrong’s second unit always felt too stagey (the buzzsaw helicopter attacks felt like a Universal Studios live show) and were too heavily reliant on machine gun play that just made the sequences feel less special than the 60s thru 80s.
  • Posts: 7,414
    Getafix wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I'd give more credit to Arthur Wooster for his handling of the action.

    Awhile back I gave his 2001 film THE POINT MEN a watch just to see how he was doing post-Bond, and maybe if he could have offered something to the Brosnan era. Even Alec Mills, the DP for TLD and LTK served for that film, and Maryam d'Abo is in the cast. It pretty much feels like an amalgamation of his 80s Bonds, but with all the weaknesses heightened. Right down to filming techniques that already felt antiquated by the 80s like that zoom in shot at the end. Frankly, Cubby was right to let him go after LTK.



    Arthur Wooster is an unsung hero. A great 2nd unit Director. When there was a clear out of personnel after LTK, they still kept on Arthur on for GE! He gets very little attention. Never seen him interviewed (apart from the making of doc on he Bond DVDs), am sure he has lots of behind the scenes stories!

    The fact the GE action is far inferior to the previous films suggests to me that Glen's departure was a major reason for that.

    I disagree. Aside from the hand to hand fight between Necros and the butler (and perhaps the buzzsaw yoyo), those types of scenes in Glen’s films as well as his second unit work in TSWLM and MR are frankly terrible, whereas the fight between Bond and Trevelyan feels like a breath of fresh air.










    That said, GE is the last time I think there was any good action in Brosnan’s run. The remaining films with Vic Armstrong’s second unit always felt too stagey (the buzzsaw helicopter attacks felt like a Universal Studios live show) and were too heavily reliant on machine gun play that just made the sequences feel less special than the 60s thru 80s.

    While I don't agree what you say regarding GE. Do agree about Vic Armstrong, terrible action director, long drawn out tedious set pieces, with little invention to them!
  • Posts: 11,425
    Isn't he back for NTTD?
  • Posts: 7,414
    Getafix wrote: »
    Isn't he back for NTTD?

    Think that was just another rumour!
    Alexander Witt is back on action duties after CR, SF and SP
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    Funnily, Vic Armstrong did the most recent Johnny English. Probably more fitting for him.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Isn't he back for NTTD?

    Think that was just another rumour!
    Alexander Witt is back on action duties after CR, SF and SP

    Ah, okay. Getting them mixed up probably.

    Can't say Bond has really stood out for action for a long time.

    LTK is probably the last time the series was still really at the forefront. The action in LTK has been repeatedly copied and riffed off by other directors over the years.

    The CR construction site chase was well choreographed although never felt it was very Bond.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2019 Posts: 17,789
    Getafix wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Isn't he back for NTTD?

    Think that was just another rumour!
    Alexander Witt is back on action duties after CR, SF and SP

    Ah, okay. Getting them mixed up probably.

    Can't say Bond has really stood out for action for a long time.

    LTK is probably the last time the series was still really at the forefront. The action in LTK has been repeatedly copied and riffed off by other directors over the years.

    The CR construction site chase was well choreographed although never felt it was very Bond.

    I concur!
    But the train fight in SP was superb IMHO.
  • Posts: 7,414
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Isn't he back for NTTD?

    Think that was just another rumour!
    Alexander Witt is back on action duties after CR, SF and SP

    Ah, okay. Getting them mixed up probably.

    Can't say Bond has really stood out for action for a long time.

    LTK is probably the last time the series was still really at the forefront. The action in LTK has been repeatedly copied and riffed off by other directors over the years.

    The CR construction site chase was well choreographed although never felt it was very Bond.

    I concur!
    But the train fight in SP was superb IMHO.

    +1
    But I do think the pts car chase from QOS was very Bondian!
  • edited October 2019 Posts: 11,425
    Good points both of you. I like both of those scenes. And the "What do we do now?" line after the train fight was the funniest in the whole film.

    Yes the opening of QOS is great. Good score by Arnold as well.

    That visceral action from Craig Bond is what his character is all about.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2019 Posts: 8,181
    Ugh, the action is QOS is a goddamned mess. The only bit of action that works for me was Bond fighting Slate. Otherwise horrid editing.
  • Posts: 11,425
    That opening chase is pretty good IMO. Also the opera chase. I agree QoS is confusing in places tho.
  • Posts: 7,414
    Must add the scaffolding fight too in QOS, which I think was unusual and thrilling!
    Of the Craig era QOS has the best action, SF has the worst!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2019 Posts: 8,181
    QOS feels less like a Bond film and more like a low grade Gerard Butler euro actioner. It's the wrong direction to take after how much class CR brought back to the franchise.
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