What do you want from Billie Eilish's NTTD's title song?

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Comments

  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,333
    Burgess wrote: »
    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.
    I think the point @jetsetwilly is making here is that Cubby, most certainly with DAF, had no intention whatsoever of filming Fleming's original novel right from the very start, other than to include a diamond smuggling ring. As soon as Lazenby bailed, Cubby and UA decided that they wanted to replicate the success of GF and so a newly devised plot contrivance was written to incorporate Auric Goldfinger's twin brother. When that brainless idea was dropped in favour of a bizarre dream involving Howard Hughes that Cubby had whilst spending time in Las Vegas, the distance put between Fleming's original story was even greater than it had been before. The end result was a rather Frankenstein hotpotch of a story and a movie that some here dislike to this very day. This was repeated again with Moonraker when Cubby and UA decided to replicate the success of TSWLM by ignoring the majority of Fleming's original source material to repeat the basic formula of YOLT/TSWLM so that they could cash in on Star Wars, hoping that we were all too stupid to notice. For the record, some were and still are. I know this is off-topic so I won't add anything more to this, but maybe the next Bond movie with a new actor will go back to the unused material? Maybe? Sure, I understand some of you need something tangible before you can decide if a scene works or not within a movie. But just because Guy Hamilton or Lewis Gilbert failed to bring a written idea properly to the screen, that doesn't mean another gifted director can't. Just a thought.
  • EiragornEiragorn Hessia
    edited January 2020 Posts: 108
    Wow, Eilish, that's quite a get! She's having the holy trifecta of being contemporary, critically lauded as well as exceptionally commercially successful.
    matt_u wrote: »
    After the last two classic ballads made under Mendes control a more experimental and "alternative" take is certainly welcome. I actually mean that too. No sarcasm. I love it when an artist metaphorically splashes cold water at the franchise like that, “A View to a Kill”, “Live and Let Die”, songs that broke perceptions of what a Bond song could be.

    Therefore this comparison feels quite sound to me since theses are the only two times where the performer also had all three.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Rock is dead. A DJ dropping beats gets people hyped a lot more these days than an aging rocker that needs a hip replacement.

    How sad. But what's really dead is talent. The homogenization of every single thing in the world and the total access to everything is killing talent. "Everyone can do it" is the trend. In literature, in painting, music, all forms of art. Even in politics, as we don't have a single world leader worth its placing. The world today belongs to the mediocre and the bland. All IMO, of course.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,169
    Univex wrote: »
    Rock is dead. A DJ dropping beats gets people hyped a lot more these days than an aging rocker that needs a hip replacement.

    How sad. But what's really dead is talent. The homogenization of every single thing in the world and the total access to everything is killing talent. "Everyone can do it" is the trend. In literature, in painting, music, all forms of art. Even in politics, as we don't have a single world leader worth its placing. The world today belongs to the mediocre and the bland. All IMO, of course.

    I dunno if everyone can do it. I can’t drop beats!
  • Posts: 379
    patb wrote: »
    As with the SS choice, these discussion always leak out into the wider realm of the state of current pop with middle aged men weaping into their pint of Doombar and a current tallent pool so shallow that it wouldn't drown a mouse. The reference to Sir Paul and DD are very interesting. Sir Paul was a Beatle. End of story. Even if you don't like their songs, you have to be music blind not to acknowledge their (and his) contribution to the art form. Then we move on to the 80s (hard for me to be rational) but, it should be pointed out that we were still in the era of a pop band and still within an era of traditional musicality where, for example, a bass player can be appreciated for their individual skills and talent in addition to their contribution to a band (John Taylor) plus these guys grew up with the likes of Beatles and big band as influences. We should not be surprised that DD did such a good job at combining their own sound with the traditional Bond "vibe".

    Another point to be made is longevity and helping to keep the Bond tradtion alive. Sir Paul may include LALD in his set this year at Glastobury (fingers crossed) and DD regularly perform AVTAK live (very well IMHO). This obviously is great for Bond fans new and old. Now, to those fans of current pop and those desperate to give present talent a fair hearing: does anyone really think that BE will be performing live at full gigs in 35 years time? and can Sheena Easton fill the O2? flavour of the month is all very well ....until next month. Talent lasts.

    Who can predict the future? Did anyone in 1962 believe that Bond series would be still making blockbuster films in 2020?
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 6,709
    Univex wrote: »
    Rock is dead. A DJ dropping beats gets people hyped a lot more these days than an aging rocker that needs a hip replacement.

    How sad. But what's really dead is talent. The homogenization of every single thing in the world and the total access to everything is killing talent. "Everyone can do it" is the trend. In literature, in painting, music, all forms of art. Even in politics, as we don't have a single world leader worth its placing. The world today belongs to the mediocre and the bland. All IMO, of course.

    I dunno if everyone can do it. I can’t drop beats!

    Well, everyone can paint by numbers, and everyone who went to school can write, and every person has an opinion, as dumb as it may be. But, as you say, not everyone has the talent, whether it is for writing a brilliant novel or dropping beats or saying something that changes people's perspectives. So I'm in full agreement with you, not everyone can do it. To bad most people don't get behind this reasoning, as it just doesn't suit them.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,327
    Rock is dead. A DJ dropping beats gets people hyped a lot more these days than an aging rocker that needs a hip replacement.

    I would add `young' people, rather than people, but yes I think you could be right - sadly.
  • Posts: 3,327
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.
    I think the point @jetsetwilly is making here is that Cubby, most certainly with DAF, had no intention whatsoever of filming Fleming's original novel right from the very start, other than to include a diamond smuggling ring. As soon as Lazenby bailed, Cubby and UA decided that they wanted to replicate the success of GF and so a newly devised plot contrivance was written to incorporate Auric Goldfinger's twin brother. When that brainless idea was dropped in favour of a bizarre dream involving Howard Hughes that Cubby had whilst spending time in Las Vegas, the distance put between Fleming's original story was even greater than it had been before. The end result was a rather Frankenstein hotpotch of a story and a movie that some here dislike to this very day. This was repeated again with Moonraker when Cubby and UA decided to replicate the success of TSWLM by ignoring the majority of Fleming's original source material to repeat the basic formula of YOLT/TSWLM so that they could cash in on Star Wars, hoping that we were all too stupid to notice. For the record, some were and still are. I know this is off-topic so I won't add anything more to this, but maybe the next Bond movie with a new actor will go back to the unused material? Maybe? Sure, I understand some of you need something tangible before you can decide if a scene works or not within a movie. But just because Guy Hamilton or Lewis Gilbert failed to bring a written idea properly to the screen, that doesn't mean another gifted director can't. Just a thought.

    Thank you bondsum. At least someone gets the point I was trying to make.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 379
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.
    I think the point @jetsetwilly is making here is that Cubby, most certainly with DAF, had no intention whatsoever of filming Fleming's original novel right from the very start, other than to include a diamond smuggling ring. As soon as Lazenby bailed, Cubby and UA decided that they wanted to replicate the success of GF and so a newly devised plot contrivance was written to incorporate Auric Goldfinger's twin brother. When that brainless idea was dropped in favour of a bizarre dream involving Howard Hughes that Cubby had whilst spending time in Las Vegas, the distance put between Fleming's original story was even greater than it had been before. The end result was a rather Frankenstein hotpotch of a story and a movie that some here dislike to this very day. This was repeated again with Moonraker when Cubby and UA decided to replicate the success of TSWLM by ignoring the majority of Fleming's original source material to repeat the basic formula of YOLT/TSWLM so that they could cash in on Star Wars, hoping that we were all too stupid to notice. For the record, some were and still are. I know this is off-topic so I won't add anything more to this, but maybe the next Bond movie with a new actor will go back to the unused material? Maybe? Sure, I understand some of you need something tangible before you can decide if a scene works or not within a movie. But just because Guy Hamilton or Lewis Gilbert failed to bring a written idea properly to the screen, that doesn't mean another gifted director can't. Just a thought.

    I’m not saying that the aforementioned material can’t be put it into a movie or that you can’t shape a movie around it. But it’s not a foregone conclusion that you can, or that the result would be any good. These are elements. Writing is hard. Making movies is hard. It takes more than saying “why can’t they just...” or “ they can simply...” or “all you have to do is...” Again, this unused material, no matter how interesting, is not an actual plot—they’re elements.


  • Posts: 3,327
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?

    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.

    How do you get a Madagascar chase or a Miami airport bomber linked to a card game battle at a casino? How do you get Bond shooting a sniper in Berlin to being on horseback in Afghanistan, dressed in Arab gear?

    That's where the script writers earn their money, by linking this stuff together, instead of crudely retconning Fleming by making Blofeld his brother.
  • Posts: 379
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?

    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.

    How do you get a Madagascar chase or a Miami airport bomber linked to a card game battle at a casino? How do you get Bond shooting a sniper in Berlin to being on horseback in Afghanistan, dressed in Arab gear?

    That's where the script writers earn their money, by linking this stuff together, instead of crudely retconning Fleming by making Blofeld his brother.

    Correct. Screenwriters write scripts, and those elements exist in their respective films. What are you getting at?
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    edited January 2020 Posts: 755
    Thank you both @jetsetwilly and @bondsum... you’re doing God’s work on here and saving me time :)

    The further we get from the source the more the fan base has grown into a mass of people who don’t even know what they’re fans of. Bond has long been plagued by self parody, popular film aping, genericism, forced contemporization, and now auteurism so that a lot of the fan base literally dismisses the source, calling people Fleming fanatics, etc.

    I would trade any or all of the last three movies for a remake of LALD as a follow up to CR with that film team. Don’t bother posting they already made it and used the best bits, you don’t know what you’re talking about. That book could be remade and organically modernized into a far better film than the original. The same goes for all the books mentioned (and then some for remakes).

    Could they make a bad movie out of remaking LALD? Sure.. but Fleming is a better place to start than a P&W treatment. CR proved that as has all of the follow ups.

  • Posts: 3,333
    Rock is dead. A DJ dropping beats gets people hyped a lot more these days than an aging rocker that needs a hip replacement.
    If you want to base the selection on popularity, concert-wise or download-wise, then why not Ed Sheeran? He's head and shoulders above Billie Eilish in the popularity stakes. I get what you mean about "DJ dropping beats" but people still go to live concerts where artists are still required to play their own instruments and perform. It's not like DJaying is a modern concept and everything stopped because of it.

    @Shardlake mentions we're not the demographic that the song is aimed at. He's right, of course, but it begs the question why is the new target audience aimed solely at teenagers of a certain musical persuasion when you have a quinquagenarian in the key role? Do the producers expect Billie Eilish fans to flock to the theatres in their droves like the Duran Duran fans didn't when AVTAK dominated the global charts? I must confess I have no idea how popular Eilish is. I mean is she Taylor Swift or Rihanna popular, or is she more niche than that?
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2020 Posts: 4,043
    bondsum wrote: »
    Rock is dead. A DJ dropping beats gets people hyped a lot more these days than an aging rocker that needs a hip replacement.
    If you want to base the selection on popularity, concert-wise or download-wise, then why not Ed Sheeran? He's head and shoulders above Billie Eilish in the popularity stakes. I get what you mean about "DJ dropping beats" but people still go to live concerts where artists are still required to play their own instruments and perform. It's not like DJaying is a modern concept and everything stopped because of it.

    @Shardlake mentions we're not the demographic that the song is aimed at. He's right, of course, but it begs the question why is the new target audience aimed solely at teenagers of a certain musical persuasion when you have a quinquagenarian in the key role? Do the producers expect Billie Eilish fans to flock to the theatres in their droves like the Duran Duran fans didn't when AVTAK dominated the global charts? I must confess I have no idea how popular Eilish is. I mean is she Taylor Swift or Rihanna popular, or is she more niche than that?

    I really don't know, I wouldn't say she fits into the household name bracket they do as her music is more niche, they seem to be going for an artist popular but with credibility.

    The younger hipper crowd as opposed to just playing entirely to the masses and handing it to Dua Lipa or Sheeran.

    If they'd been going for the masses and across the ages then Sheeran would have been a no brainer (as terrifying as that sounds).

    It doesn't feel like they picked her as they were looking to repeat the effect of Adele and Smith, Ed would have been a much better choice for that.

    Billies Eilish isn't going to reach the wide demographic that that he would or Adele and Smith did, she is much more of an interesting choice than I was expecting.
  • Posts: 379
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    Thank you both @jetsetwilly and @bondsum... you’re doing God’s work on here and saving me time :)

    The further we get from the source the more the fan base has grown into a mass of people who don’t even know what they’re fans of. Bond has long been plagued by self parody, popular film aping, genericism, forced contemporization, and now auteurism so that a lot of the fan base literally dismisses the source, calling people Fleming fanatics, etc.

    I would trade any or all of the last three movies for a remake of LALD as a follow up to CR with that film team. Don’t bother posting they already made it and used the best bits, you don’t know what you’re talking about. That book could be remade and organically modernized into a far better film than the original. The same goes for all the books mentioned (and then some for remakes).

    Could they make a bad movie out of remaking LALD? Sure.. but Fleming is a better place to start than a P&W treatment. CR proved that as has all of the follow ups.

    “Could” is the word of the day. But I never called anyone a “Fleming fanatic.” I have more respect and admiration for Commander Fleming than you’ll ever know. I am a Fleming fanatic. But crafting a good story is not as easy as saying “just make a good movie with these elements.” I’ve loved the Craig era as it exists, warts and all. I also think that you could remake Fleming’s novels into truer adaptions of the source material. Don’t get self righteous.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Burgess wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.
    I think the point @jetsetwilly is making here is that Cubby, most certainly with DAF, had no intention whatsoever of filming Fleming's original novel right from the very start, other than to include a diamond smuggling ring. As soon as Lazenby bailed, Cubby and UA decided that they wanted to replicate the success of GF and so a newly devised plot contrivance was written to incorporate Auric Goldfinger's twin brother. When that brainless idea was dropped in favour of a bizarre dream involving Howard Hughes that Cubby had whilst spending time in Las Vegas, the distance put between Fleming's original story was even greater than it had been before. The end result was a rather Frankenstein hotpotch of a story and a movie that some here dislike to this very day. This was repeated again with Moonraker when Cubby and UA decided to replicate the success of TSWLM by ignoring the majority of Fleming's original source material to repeat the basic formula of YOLT/TSWLM so that they could cash in on Star Wars, hoping that we were all too stupid to notice. For the record, some were and still are. I know this is off-topic so I won't add anything more to this, but maybe the next Bond movie with a new actor will go back to the unused material? Maybe? Sure, I understand some of you need something tangible before you can decide if a scene works or not within a movie. But just because Guy Hamilton or Lewis Gilbert failed to bring a written idea properly to the screen, that doesn't mean another gifted director can't. Just a thought.

    I’m not saying that the aforementioned material can’t be put it into a movie or that you can’t shape a movie around it. But it’s not a foregone conclusion that you can, or that the result would be any good. These are elements. Writing is hard. Making movies is hard. It takes more than saying “why can’t they just...” or “ they can simply...” or “all you have to do is...” Again, this unused material, no matter how interesting, is not an actual plot—they’re elements.
    And parting with your hard earned cash to see something subpar is even harder, and nor should it be a foregone conclusion that we're all so easily pleased with whatever they've decided to offer us. I don't deny writing is hard, but the producers already have something in the guise of a number of unfilmed Fleming books to work with. To use the excuse that "these elements have already been used elsewhere or here and there" hasn't stopped the producers from recycling material from their back catalogue in the past, so it really shouldn't be used as one for not doing it again in the future. As others have pointed out, some of Fleming's material was very loosely adapted to begin with so it's quite feasible to go back and take other elements for a modern retelling without it feeling like an exact carbon copy.

    You're most welcome @DoctorNo and @jetsetwilly.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?

    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.

    How do you get a Madagascar chase or a Miami airport bomber linked to a card game battle at a casino? How do you get Bond shooting a sniper in Berlin to being on horseback in Afghanistan, dressed in Arab gear?

    That's where the script writers earn their money, by linking this stuff together, instead of crudely retconning Fleming by making Blofeld his brother.

    Correct. Screenwriters write scripts, and those elements exist in their respective films. What are you getting at?

    You were asking how could this be done. Incorporating Fleming scenes into something else to give it motivation, plot, theme, etc. so I gave you some examples of how it has been done previously (TLD and CR).

    And there is no reason to believe it could not be done again, unless you really think it is beyond P&W's talent to give us a film that managed to weave fully adapted incidents, scenes, etc. into one of their scripts - there I may agree with you... ;)
  • Posts: 3,327
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    Thank you both @jetsetwilly and @bondsum... you’re doing God’s work on here and saving me time :)

    The further we get from the source the more the fan base has grown into a mass of people who don’t even know what they’re fans of. Bond has long been plagued by self parody, popular film aping, genericism, forced contemporization, and now auteurism so that a lot of the fan base literally dismisses the source, calling people Fleming fanatics, etc.

    I would trade any or all of the last three movies for a remake of LALD as a follow up to CR with that film team. Don’t bother posting they already made it and used the best bits, you don’t know what you’re talking about. That book could be remade and organically modernized into a far better film than the original. The same goes for all the books mentioned (and then some for remakes).

    Could they make a bad movie out of remaking LALD? Sure.. but Fleming is a better place to start than a P&W treatment. CR proved that as has all of the follow ups.

    Sanity at last. Give this man a beer.... =D>
  • Posts: 3,327
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.
    I think the point @jetsetwilly is making here is that Cubby, most certainly with DAF, had no intention whatsoever of filming Fleming's original novel right from the very start, other than to include a diamond smuggling ring. As soon as Lazenby bailed, Cubby and UA decided that they wanted to replicate the success of GF and so a newly devised plot contrivance was written to incorporate Auric Goldfinger's twin brother. When that brainless idea was dropped in favour of a bizarre dream involving Howard Hughes that Cubby had whilst spending time in Las Vegas, the distance put between Fleming's original story was even greater than it had been before. The end result was a rather Frankenstein hotpotch of a story and a movie that some here dislike to this very day. This was repeated again with Moonraker when Cubby and UA decided to replicate the success of TSWLM by ignoring the majority of Fleming's original source material to repeat the basic formula of YOLT/TSWLM so that they could cash in on Star Wars, hoping that we were all too stupid to notice. For the record, some were and still are. I know this is off-topic so I won't add anything more to this, but maybe the next Bond movie with a new actor will go back to the unused material? Maybe? Sure, I understand some of you need something tangible before you can decide if a scene works or not within a movie. But just because Guy Hamilton or Lewis Gilbert failed to bring a written idea properly to the screen, that doesn't mean another gifted director can't. Just a thought.

    I’m not saying that the aforementioned material can’t be put it into a movie or that you can’t shape a movie around it. But it’s not a foregone conclusion that you can, or that the result would be any good. These are elements. Writing is hard. Making movies is hard. It takes more than saying “why can’t they just...” or “ they can simply...” or “all you have to do is...” Again, this unused material, no matter how interesting, is not an actual plot—they’re elements.
    And parting with your hard earned cash to see something subpar is even harder, and nor should it be a foregone conclusion that we're all so easily pleased with whatever they've decided to offer us. I don't deny writing is hard, but the producers already have something in the guise of a number of unfilmed Fleming books to work with. To use the excuse that "these elements have already been used elsewhere or here and there" hasn't stopped the producers from recycling material from their back catalogue in the past, so it really shouldn't be used as one for not doing it again in the future. As others have pointed out, some of Fleming's material was very loosely adapted to begin with so it's quite feasible to go back and take other elements for a modern retelling without it feeling like an exact carbon copy.

    You're most welcome @DoctorNo and @jetsetwilly.

    Give this man a beer too. =D>
  • Posts: 379
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?

    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.

    How do you get a Madagascar chase or a Miami airport bomber linked to a card game battle at a casino? How do you get Bond shooting a sniper in Berlin to being on horseback in Afghanistan, dressed in Arab gear?

    That's where the script writers earn their money, by linking this stuff together, instead of crudely retconning Fleming by making Blofeld his brother.

    Correct. Screenwriters write scripts, and those elements exist in their respective films. What are you getting at?

    You were asking how could this be done. Incorporating Fleming scenes into something else to give it motivation, plot, theme, etc. so I gave you some examples of how it has been done previously (TLD and CR).

    And there is no reason to believe it could not be done again, unless you really think it is beyond P&W's talent to give us a film that managed to weave fully adapted incidents, scenes, etc. into one of their scripts - there I may agree with you... ;)

    I wasn’t asking “how this could be done.” I was simply stating that it’s not necessarily the case that it can be done with guaranteed success. You have examples of books in which some elements were not used at all or properly exploited. They’re interesting bits but not guaranteed gold until a screenwriter cracks the story.
  • Posts: 379
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.
    I think the point @jetsetwilly is making here is that Cubby, most certainly with DAF, had no intention whatsoever of filming Fleming's original novel right from the very start, other than to include a diamond smuggling ring. As soon as Lazenby bailed, Cubby and UA decided that they wanted to replicate the success of GF and so a newly devised plot contrivance was written to incorporate Auric Goldfinger's twin brother. When that brainless idea was dropped in favour of a bizarre dream involving Howard Hughes that Cubby had whilst spending time in Las Vegas, the distance put between Fleming's original story was even greater than it had been before. The end result was a rather Frankenstein hotpotch of a story and a movie that some here dislike to this very day. This was repeated again with Moonraker when Cubby and UA decided to replicate the success of TSWLM by ignoring the majority of Fleming's original source material to repeat the basic formula of YOLT/TSWLM so that they could cash in on Star Wars, hoping that we were all too stupid to notice. For the record, some were and still are. I know this is off-topic so I won't add anything more to this, but maybe the next Bond movie with a new actor will go back to the unused material? Maybe? Sure, I understand some of you need something tangible before you can decide if a scene works or not within a movie. But just because Guy Hamilton or Lewis Gilbert failed to bring a written idea properly to the screen, that doesn't mean another gifted director can't. Just a thought.

    I’m not saying that the aforementioned material can’t be put it into a movie or that you can’t shape a movie around it. But it’s not a foregone conclusion that you can, or that the result would be any good. These are elements. Writing is hard. Making movies is hard. It takes more than saying “why can’t they just...” or “ they can simply...” or “all you have to do is...” Again, this unused material, no matter how interesting, is not an actual plot—they’re elements.
    And parting with your hard earned cash to see something subpar is even harder, and nor should it be a foregone conclusion that we're all so easily pleased with whatever they've decided to offer us. I don't deny writing is hard, but the producers already have something in the guise of a number of unfilmed Fleming books to work with. To use the excuse that "these elements have already been used elsewhere or here and there" hasn't stopped the producers from recycling material from their back catalogue in the past, so it really shouldn't be used as one for not doing it again in the future. As others have pointed out, some of Fleming's material was very loosely adapted to begin with so it's quite feasible to go back and take other elements for a modern retelling without it feeling like an exact carbon copy.

    You're most welcome @DoctorNo and @jetsetwilly.

    The original assertion was that there are wholly unadapted Fleming novels, which aside from (TSWLM) is not the case. When pressed, these wholly unadapted books became a collection of unused elements from each book. There are two discussions happening: one is about remaking the books into closer adaptions of the novels. The other, taking unused elements from the books that have been adapted and turning those into new films.
    I was just saying that elements of adapted books does not a new film make. You still need a story. Yes, a screenwriter is paid to make it work but that doesn’t mean it will work simply because the elements come from Fleming. Ian Fleming had his own unused material that didn’t make the books.

  • edited January 2020 Posts: 653
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I haven't heard about Billie Eilish, but quite frankly, that doesn't really distinguish her from most of the other "recent" artists who did Bond songs. Of those since TWINE (included) I knew only Adele and Madonna, and liked neither, but that's about it. So I'm not judging Billie What's-her-name in advance, but am afraid it's going to be anoher vapid, stunt-casting bow to supposed current tastes, rather than something that might elevate the movie to higher levels as it used to be during the classic days which I'd say ended with Moonraker, or at worst GoldenEye.
    Great minds think alike, pepper!! Spot on!! These young snotty, still-wet-under-the-nose, vapid emo looking, blank stare, ring-in-your-nose kids that are lauded left and right leave me totally speechless as to their popularity. Must be a generation thing. I mean what grownup in their right mind would listen to that crap? I just listened (and saw) her “Bad Guy” song/video and my mouth dropped open. I was in a stupor that someone could find that entertaining or even listenable. Maybe a 10 year old? But I think even at that age I had better taste. Just thanking my lucky stars that I was born when I was.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Burgess wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.
    I think the point @jetsetwilly is making here is that Cubby, most certainly with DAF, had no intention whatsoever of filming Fleming's original novel right from the very start, other than to include a diamond smuggling ring. As soon as Lazenby bailed, Cubby and UA decided that they wanted to replicate the success of GF and so a newly devised plot contrivance was written to incorporate Auric Goldfinger's twin brother. When that brainless idea was dropped in favour of a bizarre dream involving Howard Hughes that Cubby had whilst spending time in Las Vegas, the distance put between Fleming's original story was even greater than it had been before. The end result was a rather Frankenstein hotpotch of a story and a movie that some here dislike to this very day. This was repeated again with Moonraker when Cubby and UA decided to replicate the success of TSWLM by ignoring the majority of Fleming's original source material to repeat the basic formula of YOLT/TSWLM so that they could cash in on Star Wars, hoping that we were all too stupid to notice. For the record, some were and still are. I know this is off-topic so I won't add anything more to this, but maybe the next Bond movie with a new actor will go back to the unused material? Maybe? Sure, I understand some of you need something tangible before you can decide if a scene works or not within a movie. But just because Guy Hamilton or Lewis Gilbert failed to bring a written idea properly to the screen, that doesn't mean another gifted director can't. Just a thought.

    I’m not saying that the aforementioned material can’t be put it into a movie or that you can’t shape a movie around it. But it’s not a foregone conclusion that you can, or that the result would be any good. These are elements. Writing is hard. Making movies is hard. It takes more than saying “why can’t they just...” or “ they can simply...” or “all you have to do is...” Again, this unused material, no matter how interesting, is not an actual plot—they’re elements.
    And parting with your hard earned cash to see something subpar is even harder, and nor should it be a foregone conclusion that we're all so easily pleased with whatever they've decided to offer us. I don't deny writing is hard, but the producers already have something in the guise of a number of unfilmed Fleming books to work with. To use the excuse that "these elements have already been used elsewhere or here and there" hasn't stopped the producers from recycling material from their back catalogue in the past, so it really shouldn't be used as one for not doing it again in the future. As others have pointed out, some of Fleming's material was very loosely adapted to begin with so it's quite feasible to go back and take other elements for a modern retelling without it feeling like an exact carbon copy.

    You're most welcome @DoctorNo and @jetsetwilly.

    The original assertion was that there are wholly unadapted Fleming novels, which aside from (TSWLM) is not the case. When pressed, these wholly unadapted books became a collection of unused elements from each book. There are two discussions happening: one is about remaking the books into closer adaptions of the novels. The other, taking unused elements from the books that have been adapted and turning those into new films.
    I was just saying that elements of adapted books does not a new film make. You still need a story. Yes, a screenwriter is paid to make it work but that doesn’t mean it will work simply because the elements come from Fleming. Ian Fleming had his own unused material that didn’t make the books.

    And like others have already said, forming the basis of a story from unused Fleming material is probably a better way to start than a total blank page by P&W, dreaming up `Fleming re-imagined' - at best with the Skyfall house (which wasn't too bad), and at worst with Blofeld being Bond's lost brother (utterly disgusting).
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,327
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?

    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.

    How do you get a Madagascar chase or a Miami airport bomber linked to a card game battle at a casino? How do you get Bond shooting a sniper in Berlin to being on horseback in Afghanistan, dressed in Arab gear?

    That's where the script writers earn their money, by linking this stuff together, instead of crudely retconning Fleming by making Blofeld his brother.

    Correct. Screenwriters write scripts, and those elements exist in their respective films. What are you getting at?

    You were asking how could this be done. Incorporating Fleming scenes into something else to give it motivation, plot, theme, etc. so I gave you some examples of how it has been done previously (TLD and CR).

    And there is no reason to believe it could not be done again, unless you really think it is beyond P&W's talent to give us a film that managed to weave fully adapted incidents, scenes, etc. into one of their scripts - there I may agree with you... ;)

    I wasn’t asking “how this could be done.” I was simply stating that it’s not necessarily the case that it can be done with guaranteed success. You have examples of books in which some elements were not used at all or properly exploited. They’re interesting bits but not guaranteed gold until a screenwriter cracks the story.

    Of course, nothing is guaranteed success. But I would put more faith in basing a new script around unused Fleming material (TLD short story as a successful blueprint example), than P&W dreaming up another character like Zao, or another Elektra, or another invisible car...
  • Posts: 3,333
    Shardlake wrote: »
    It doesn't feel like they picked her as they were looking to repeat the effect of Adele and Smith, Ed would have been a much better choice for that.

    Billies Eilish isn't going to reach the wide demographic that that he would or Adele and Smith did, she is much more of an interesting choice than I was expecting.
    Interesting. Thank you @Shardlake for your overview. I was aware of Eilish but was never that interested in her brand of dark pop, EDM, electropop up until I found out she was the new Bond performer. I honestly couldn't hum one of her tunes if you paid me. I just wonder by the lack of Eilish's worldwide commercial appeal that it might have a detrimental effect leading up to the movie's release? Surely it would've been far better to have a song with mass appeal than one with only a small niche following. Of course, her song could still be great. Up until now there's no real gauge to judge her Bond credentials by.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    bondsum wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    It doesn't feel like they picked her as they were looking to repeat the effect of Adele and Smith, Ed would have been a much better choice for that.

    Billies Eilish isn't going to reach the wide demographic that that he would or Adele and Smith did, she is much more of an interesting choice than I was expecting.
    Interesting. Thank you @Shardlake for your overview. I was aware of Eilish but was never that interested in her brand of dark pop, EDM, electropop up until I found out she was the new Bond performer. I honestly couldn't hum one of her tunes if you paid me. I just wonder by the lack of Eilish's worldwide commercial appeal that it might have a detrimental effect leading up to the movie's release? Surely it would've been far better to have a song with mass appeal than one with only a small niche following. Of course, her song could still be great. Up until now there's no real gauge to judge her Bond credentials by.

    I think it will get plenty of column inches in credible music press, it will get the same kind of exposure that Radiohead would have done but for a younger crowd.

    I think it has more chance of being interesting, I don't think it will be bland and vanilla but then again to our ears it could be horrific.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 379
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?

    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.

    How do you get a Madagascar chase or a Miami airport bomber linked to a card game battle at a casino? How do you get Bond shooting a sniper in Berlin to being on horseback in Afghanistan, dressed in Arab gear?

    That's where the script writers earn their money, by linking this stuff together, instead of crudely retconning Fleming by making Blofeld his brother.

    Correct. Screenwriters write scripts, and those elements exist in their respective films. What are you getting at?

    You were asking how could this be done. Incorporating Fleming scenes into something else to give it motivation, plot, theme, etc. so I gave you some examples of how it has been done previously (TLD and CR).

    And there is no reason to believe it could not be done again, unless you really think it is beyond P&W's talent to give us a film that managed to weave fully adapted incidents, scenes, etc. into one of their scripts - there I may agree with you... ;)

    I wasn’t asking “how this could be done.” I was simply stating that it’s not necessarily the case that it can be done with guaranteed success. You have examples of books in which some elements were not used at all or properly exploited. They’re interesting bits but not guaranteed gold until a screenwriter cracks the story.

    Of course, nothing is guaranteed success. But I would put more faith in basing a new script around unused Fleming material (TLD short story as a successful blueprint example), than P&W dreaming up another character like Zao, or another Elektra, or another invisible car...

    I agree with that but, of course, a screenwriter will still need to craft a large chunk of the film from scratch. The novel “Trigger Mortis” uses an unpublished Fleming story/scenario to great success but Anthony Horowitz still had to invent new things to creat a story. It just so happened that he got it to work. I also think that P & W should be replaced. But we can recognize that they have far less unused Fleming material with which to work than, say, Richard Maibum.

    It’s been a lively conversation. I write that with sincerity. No hard feelings, I hope.



  • Posts: 3,333
    It certainly has a curiosity factor @Shardlake. I guess the proof will be in the pudding.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?

    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.

    How do you get a Madagascar chase or a Miami airport bomber linked to a card game battle at a casino? How do you get Bond shooting a sniper in Berlin to being on horseback in Afghanistan, dressed in Arab gear?

    That's where the script writers earn their money, by linking this stuff together, instead of crudely retconning Fleming by making Blofeld his brother.

    Correct. Screenwriters write scripts, and those elements exist in their respective films. What are you getting at?

    You were asking how could this be done. Incorporating Fleming scenes into something else to give it motivation, plot, theme, etc. so I gave you some examples of how it has been done previously (TLD and CR).

    And there is no reason to believe it could not be done again, unless you really think it is beyond P&W's talent to give us a film that managed to weave fully adapted incidents, scenes, etc. into one of their scripts - there I may agree with you... ;)

    I wasn’t asking “how this could be done.” I was simply stating that it’s not necessarily the case that it can be done with guaranteed success. You have examples of books in which some elements were not used at all or properly exploited. They’re interesting bits but not guaranteed gold until a screenwriter cracks the story.

    Of course, nothing is guaranteed success. But I would put more faith in basing a new script around unused Fleming material (TLD short story as a successful blueprint example), than P&W dreaming up another character like Zao, or another Elektra, or another invisible car...

    I agree with that but, of course, a screenwriter will still need to craft a large chunk of the film from scratch. The novel “Trigger Mortis” uses an unpublished Fleming story/scenario to great success but Anthony Horowitz still had to invent new things to creat a story. It just so happened that he got it to work. I also think that P & W should be replaced. But we can recognize that they have far less unused Fleming material with which to work than, say, Richard Maibum.

    It’s been a lively conversation. I write that with sincerity. No hard feelings, I hope.



    No hard feelings at all mate. It's nice to debate with someone who knows what they are talking about when it comes to Fleming.

    I'd love to see the Horowitz novels adapted too. They are far better than most of the P&W scripts.
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