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I'm curious to hear the score now, very curious in fact. Can't wait.
I have no opinion on the Superman theme either way. I've never gotten into those early films.
I love his theme and his two Bat scores but he comes across as a bit of a dick in the interviews about JL. Zimmer and Junkie did really good work, whereas Elfman has been very vanilla for years. That preview track from JL was as mediocre as it gets.
I definitely think that Zimmer and Junkie's style/s echo more of where the films are in tone and filmic style, whereas Elfman is taking what worked in other films with different tones and is trying to jam it into a vastly different JL. I don't know how that will work, quite frankly, but I guess the hope is that he can nail an uplifting and melodic sort of main theme for the team that holds water and feels natural to the film and characters instead of something awkward and unsuitable.
It's at moments like these that music in a film is revealed to be so very important.
From what I have read it was very much Whedon's decision to bring Elfman in
Elfman nailed it big time, producing one of the best ever superhero scores. (The theme is also used for Batman: The Animated Series)
Some of his later work was a bit meh.
The superhero alter ego of Hans Zimmer?
Or Bob Dylan.
Zimmer said he wasn't coming back after BvS as he felt he had run out of steam in the genre, and confident that he had brought Junkie up to speed enough to take over from him. Junkie then got pushed out when Whedon came on board. Whether that was Whedon's decision or not, I'm not too sure. We still don't quite know how much power Whedon has over it but the Elfman thing has him written all over it.
It's a poor decision to me that Junkie was pushed out. The music for Batman he produced was quite aggressive even by Zimmer standards but it was still quite good.
Of all the problems that the previous films had, the music was not one of them.
It doesn't help that I find Elfman to have a really overbearing personality. His scores for Burton's films are brilliant, no question - but Goldenthal, Zimmer, Newton Howard as well as Shirley Walker and Christopher Drake also produced beautiful Batman scores. His claim that there is only "one Batman theme" is egotist rubbish that is quite hard to listen to. Coupled with that, I then listened to "Heroes Theme" from his Justice League efforts and it is as average as one can get.
This track, however, is MUCH better for reasons that are obvious from the get-go. It's still so strange to imagine Williams' accompanying Cavill's Superman though. It just feels......wrong - especially after hearing Zimmer's theme as recently as the last trailer.
The one thing DC absolutely, concretely had over Marvel was musical continuity. Such a shame that's gone out the window.
Elfman is pretty hit-or-miss for me. He gave us The Simpsons Theme; that right there commands my respect. His Burton scores are on average pretty good, but not always outstanding. I really like his Batman score but have serious issues with his Batman Returns score. Regarding M:I, I don't know what Elfman was doing but that score has maybe five minutes of music I enjoy, at most. Even Silvestri's rejected score would have served the film better IMO. Elfman's Planet Of The Apes score has good themes but lacks punch. The Nightmare Before Christmas is a musical work of art, Sleepy Hollow merely so-and-so. And I can keep going on like that. There was a brief period when I thought the world of Elfman, but that's all in the past.
Spider-Man is when the penny dropped. I began to question if Elfman had sunken away in mediocrity. More recently, his Age Of Ultron score had a good theme but the best parts of the score were the parts taken from Silvestri's previous efforts. I'm neither excited nor terrible disappointed when I read Elfman's name these days. He still has good things to say with an orchestra, but he rarely gets me thrilled any more.
On Batman Themes:
When does a musical piece become a 'theme'? Assuming some definitional liberty here, I'd argue there are at least ten:
* Neal Hefti's theme for the 1960s Batman
* Elfman's theme for Batman and Batman Returns, also used in TAS (OT).
* Shirley Walker's theme for TAS.
* Goldenthal's theme for Batman Forever and Batman & Robin
* Zimmer's theme for Nolan's trilogy (with Newton Howard)
* Zimmer's something of a theme for Batman v Superman
* Robert J. Kral's theme for Batman in Assault on Arkham, Gotham Knight, ...
* Christopher Drake's theme for Batman in The Dark Knight Returns
* another Christopher Drake theme for Batman in Gotham Knight
* yet another Christopher Drake theme for Batman in the Arkham video games
* if desired the opening themes of Beware The Bat and other series
* ...
Some of these themes are dark, others much less so. Some sound heroic, others rather bombastic, others still bring a more comedic touch, ... Since there is no definitive Batman, there cannot be a definitive theme either. The trick is to simply find the right music for the proper occasion. Elfman's theme wouldn't have worked for The Dark Knight Rises and Christopher Drake's theme from The Dark Knight Returns most likely wouldn't have worked for The Return Of The Caped Crusaders. But when the Batmobile drives Batman and Vicky to the cave in '89, and the leaves in the forest are stirred by the speed of the car, Elfman's theme makes me want to pump a fist; and when a hellish lightening rips apart the dark of the night, revealing Batman in full armour as he's back after ten years of retirement, Drake's theme compels me to tears.
So whatever the musical choices in The Justice League, I'll reserve my enthusiasm for after I've actually watched the film. Everything will depend on how the music is used. That said, I'm quite thrilled knowing that some favourites are back. Makes one dream of one day bringing the 007 theme back to Bond... ;-)
For me, it's as good as the first. There's a few noticeable differences in mixing and recording because of the different orchestras and locations of recording, but beyond that I think it's great.
In his Batman score, I accept the small bits of goofy, carnivalesque music Elfman throws in, but in Batman Returns I simply get too much of that. I understand the link with the Circus Gang and all that, but his "chaotic comedy" style always gets on my nerves after about half an hour of film.
I recognise the good parts in the score too. I'm particularly fond of the "miaow"-like strings for Catwoman and Face To Face by Siouxsie and the Banshees.
I will also concede that my issues with the score are entirely my own. I know that the Batman Returns score has many fans. It's simply a matter I guess of me not really digging the Elfman choirs doing "ooh-oh ooh-oh" all the time, nor his overall playfulness and wackiness, at least not for a Batman film. His score perfectly resonates with Burton's choices for the film of course, and part of my beef is with the film as a whole. It's too much Silly Knight rather than Dark Knight; too much this
and not enough this
and that bothers me. Bits and pieces, sure. But both Burton and Elfman overdosed on the eccentricities. The plastic ducks and the balloons and the clowns and the cute dogs and the overall craziness of the film are ubiquitous from the prologue to the end credits. When your climax is an army of penguins with little cutesy missiles strapped to them, marching all over Gotham, you know someone didn't read the memo. My problem with Elfman is that his composition is all over the place, doing nothing if not enhancing the looney tunes quality of the film.
The film, as a whole, is cohesive, I'll give you that. Music, story, acting, production design, ... they're all part of the same whole. And there are good things in it. But Batman Returns is actually Burton Gone Wild, or Burton Let Loose; it's Tim Burton's "I'm a nutter" interpretation of Batman. And while Batman has many faces and can be served by many different creative styles, this one just happens to be one of my least favourite.
People often pick the mentally challenged kid in the classroom, Batman And Robin, as the prime example of a "ur doing it wrong" meme inspired by Batman. But they tend to forget that while Batman And Robin is one big joke and everybody's involved, Batman Returns took itself pretty seriously and is an even bigger failure for me in that regard. The things they want us to swallow... it's almost infuriating; from Selina's backstory to Walken's terrifying wig, from Cobblepot's nonsensical plot to his funhouse version of a remote control for the Batmobile. I always get the sense that Burton had barely read a single Batman comic--and he has admitted that much--and never fully understood the Batman universe; he turned a Batman film into a Burton film, a crazy, self-serving Burton project coasting on the goodwill of hungry Batman fans. And Elfman played along. With jingles and bells and playful organs and funny sounds and bombastic mess.
But again, I know I'm in a minority here, and that's okay. :)
I can certainly see why you would feel that way. They're mostly all pretty valid criticisms. Thankfully for me, the good mostly outweighs the bad. Pfeiffer as Catwoman leaves DeVito for dust - her scenes with Keaton both in and out of the suit really do make the film for me, and I always manage to block that Penguin army out of my mind. Thanks for clarifying, nonetheless. A fair review even if I don't agree with it all or like the film despite some of the points.
Poor Batman Returns--attacked on release for being too dark, attacked 20 years later for being too silly. I will agree that Elfman's score is inferior to his earlier Bat-opus. There is perhaps too much willed eccentricity, which would be more pardonable if he'd created any new themes comparable to the classic main one from '89.
Considering that the main villain is the Penguin, whose entire gimmick is bird-related crimes, I'd say they perfectly understood the memo. I've read dozens and dozens and dozens of comics with the Penguin, and the rocket-armed penguins in BR are not even close to being his silliest bird-related crimes. Furthermore, if one doesn't like that part of the climax, there's always the plot about kidnapping and plotting to murder Gotham's first-born sons.
Fair enough--I know lots of people dislike Burton's interpretation of Batman. There are plenty I dislike more--the 50s alien phase, the current Batman comics, etc. To me Burton's operatic, gothic version of Batman feels like a legitimate extension of the darker comics from the 30s and 80s, and I regard his and Pfeiffer's version of Catwoman as the most memorable one in any medium.
I think that only proves what a failure Batman and Robin was. Even the 60s show, despite being screaming camp, took itself seriously, in the sense of presenting the material. B&R did the opposite and failed even as camp--it was wannabe camp.
Not a terribly demanding list (I rather liked Walken's wig). Every Burton film has its share of plotholes. Selina's backstory does stray into mythic territory, but her nine lives have often been toyed with in the comics, and ultimately it's no more outrageous than scientifically impossible villains like Clayface, Poison Ivy, or the comics version of Ra's Al Ghul.
And Connery only read two Fleming novels. We do know that Burton read The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns, two of the most highly-regarded and most influential Batman comics of the 1980s, and that his first Batman film was written by Sam Hamm, who even went on to write Batman comics. I don't think the films would have improved if Burton was a huge Batman nerd.
Or perhaps Batman is a malleable character who has undergone drastic personality and character shifts during his 78 year existence, producing so many interpretations that fans tend to jealously guard their favorites and regard wildly differing ones as illegitimate. I'm not sure what the criteria are to "fully understand the Batman universe"--to fashion a new and creative version of Batman undoubtedly involves violating someone's idealized version of Batman. I found--and still find--Burton's version an exciting and rich interpretation of the character, centered on duality and the grotesquery of masks, and set in a freaky, larger-than-life gothic universe. All of these elements can be found in the comics. Burton married pre-existing aspects of the character to his own predilections, as any strong director would.
It must be large minority--when the Nolan films were being released Burton's films regularly trashed online and still are.
I've come not to mind most of the wacky stuff in both, even the penguins, as I don't have any great attachment to them and am not willing to be bothered by it all. Those elements are very comic-booky, but I think that was the point. Other more "regular" scenes ("You wanna get nuts?!") have me cringing more than even the colorful moments do at times, for whatever reason. Mostly because I don't agree with what appeared to be the intent in the films, of Bruce being presented and played as unsettled or a bit "off." As you mentioned, with Burton we were dealing with a man who didn't know the material or characters and was really more interested with the villains than anything Batman represented, so those cracks in the films will show through.
I know this is a common criticism, but I've never felt Batman was shortchanged in the film. He gets plenty of action time at the beginning and end, and the middle features the start and progression of his romance with Selina Kyle, culminating in the sublime scene under the mistletoe. Certainly Bruce/Batman gets a more interesting love story than in the previous film.
But that isn't very far away from the standard modern-day comics interpretation of Bruce Wayne as a disguise worn by his real persona of Batman. Keaton's Batman is awkward and reclusive as Bruce Wayne, and he comes fully to life only as Batman. For all the talk about Burton's films being so different from the comics, they actually complement them.
I'm proud to say that few things Batman I've ever read, watched or 'played' have actually disappointed me as a whole. Each time I have watched Batman (89), which is still one of my darlings, I also commit to watching Returns, and never with my claws out. I try to look past the things I dislike about the film and focus on the good stuff, and it certainly is there. Even Forever and Batman & Robin, despite my every objection, manage to entertain me on some level.
But these aren't the 90s any more, and my personal taste has changed. I spent most of the 1989-2005 interval screaming and shouting that Tim Burton's Batman was the very best Batman we'd ever get, against my better judgement by the way because a little thing called The Animated Series had already fuelled my love and appreciation for Timm/Dini/Conroy's Batman by late 1992. Nolan's trilogy all but made me forget about the Burton/Schumacher films and a more recent reappraisal of the 1960's Batman demanded that I re-evaluate the Batman I, as a kid in the early 80s, had grown up with.
To be fair, it largely depends on my mood of the day which Batman I might favour most that evening. Sometimes it's The Dark Knight, sometimes it's The Dark Knight Returns, sometimes it's Batman Returns... It's not unlike how some nights are steak nights, other nights are pizza nights, and still other nights are veggie nights. But in terms of feeling least saturated after the 'meal', Batman Returns takes the number one spot. It has a good final scene, always leaving me wanting more, but then my mind potters off to Batman shoving dynamite down a heavy's knickers, and I'm back at square one.
I'm not going to apologise for the fact that the final scenes of Batman Begins almost always make me want to shout YEAH! and praise Nolan as the only living soul who completely understands what I want out of my Batman. It's a killer ending; and the same goes for the final moments in The Dark Knight, but, just to prove that I'm not at all black and white in my views of Batman, here's a very quick love letter to all the live action films thus far released:
* Batman 1966: best Riddler, hottest Catwoman (sorry, Michelle, Halle, Julie, Eartha, Anne)
* Batman 1989: best Batman suit, best final scene (panning up towards the highest point of the cathedral, with Batman standing next to the Bat sign, while some amazingly heroic music is playing... I'm drooling as we speak)
* Batman Returns: best 'brooding Batman' shot, best appearance of film's title
* Batman Forever: haters beware, I think this one has the best Batmobile, what with the fins and all--nah, just messing with ya! ;-) I hate that car. But, I will say this, I honestly think the film has the best pop song to go over the credits (by U2)
* Batman & Robin: so, what I am going to pull out of my hat for this one? Let me see... Nipples. No. "I love you, old man." No. "Bruce, it's me, Barbara!" Sorry, Lando, but no. "Kill the heroes! YES! Kill! KILL!" Uh, ... no. Wait! "Brucieeee!" There. Best-uh-unintentional (or intentional) laugh-out-loud moment.
* Batman Begins: easy, best coming-of-Batman story
* The Dark Knight: very bestest of best villains
* The Dark Knight Rises: best score (IMO! Again, IMO, and this comes from a Zimmer sceptic!)
* Batman v Superman: best showing of Batman's physical capabilities (watch that training session; watch Bruce pull a tractor's tire! Affleck got it down, man.)
This I can certanliest agree with.
Despite my love for the Burton films, I agree with those who regard the animated Batman (from Batman: The Animated Series, Batman Beyond, Justice League) as the finest incarnation of the character in any medium. It cherrypicks the best elements from almost every earlier incarnation and melds them into a new whole. I'm not sure it can be improved on. I'm not sure the opportunity will be arrive either, since I suspect that Batman, and superheroes in general, will be heading for a 1950s-style eclipse once the current cycle of superhero films has exhausted itself. Even King Arthur endured a few hundred year periods of being out of fashion.
I think Mask of the Phantasm takes that biscuit.
I certainly agree, but I had only pulled the live action films in my list. If we're going to talk animation, it's going to be a whole other discussion entirely but nowadays, that's where the heart of my Batman love is beating. :-)
I see a big difference between Bruce using his public persona as a mask and him just being a nutter: one is a useful theater tool, another a cracked psyche. The Burton films really strive to make him seem eccentric and wacky, but I never see Bruce that way. Bruce in all my favorite interpretations is playing a part, and he does so to divert attention from him. He dates the women, attends the parties, schmoozes with the elites and all the rest to appear as if he could never be Batman, whereas Keaton's Bruce almost makes it too obvious, or at least he'd seem nutty enough to pack on a suit every night. We can see those around Bruce being skeptical of who he says he is, like he's a Howard Hughes type, and Bruce in reality would never let suspicions get that far. There's no great attempt that I see of a man concealing who he really is, and Alfred doesn't help, giving every woman who walks into the manor a free pass to the batcave.
So in many ways I don't think the Burton films compliment the comics, at least of the mid 70s to now, very well. Beyond the atmosphere of Burton's Gotham that is perfect, the on-edge killer Batman has always been the main reason I don't enjoy the films as I used to, as I really don't need the image of Batman smiling after shoving a bomb in a guy's pants and kicking him away to explode. That alone makes the Burton films very much their own thing, and I even prefer Snyder's murder Batman over Keaton's because we get an implication of why Bruce kills in the new film and we never do in Burton's (and Keaton looks like he's having too much fun wreaking havoc). Affleck Batman has the common decency to brood after he kills. ;)