Batman

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  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,134
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I would think West would have done well as a more serious Batman, perhaps The Dark Knight Returns, Jill St John would make a great (older) Carrie Kelly...
    6ff1934f269a3a500eb8fe706bfe6ded.jpg

    Oh wow! I would have said 'no!' if I hadn't seen this lovely image.

    I have wondered if Frank Miller drew some inspiration from this image from 20 years prior to The Dark Knight Returns.
  • Posts: 1,630
    Ms. St. John certainly is inspirational.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,416
    So, is this real? It looks it to me.


  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited April 2022 Posts: 25,134
    I finally got round to watching The Batman I will start of by saying Pattinson was good and the best thing in the movie, a genuinely great Batman. The first 20 minutes were very good and my initial thoughts were wow this is going to be a classic...

    Alas the film despite having great scenes that felt Graphic Novel accurate early on the film often meanaders and lacks focus. Zoe looks great as Celina though is flat and has zero chemistry with Batman. When so called revelations appeared I either saw it coming a mile off or just did not care.

    I understand the murky look for artistic reasons though it becomes a bit too much over a 3 hour runtime. I hate to admit in certain scenes I was bored, I would rate this at this time the fifth or Sixth best live action Batman film. I will watch it for a second time tomorrow perhaps my opinion will differ.

    The dialogue at times is not very good, it often feels clunky and should be far better for a film of this status.

    The ending I thought I was watching Batman and Robin it was hokey at times.

    Batman wandering around crime scenes is brilliant admittedly.

    As a DC fan I am glad this film did well nonetheless.

    If anyone wants to watch a recent good Batman, watch The Long Halloween Parts 1 and 2 Animated Film its superb.

    Ultimately The Batman is a very mixed bag, the best Batman film ever? No chance.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I also finally got to see it on HBO Max yesterday, I think I'd rank it as my second favorite Batman film but nowhere near the level of The Dark Knight still. Pattinson was great, I thought the rest of the cast was excellent, especially Zoe, but the inclusion of CGI in some of the fight scene was super jarring (I thought it was an artistic choice but regardless, it looked rough) and the film does start to drag during the final act. I was surprised how much of the grand scheme (the flooding, the Riddler's capture) was showcased in the marketing, considering these moments would've made for a much stronger reveal without previewing them so heavily beforehand. I'd say one of my favorite aspects of it is showing Batman as an imperfect superhero, a budding detective who's still able to overlook big clues (like the Spanish language bit that the Penguin rightfully corrects, or the glaringly obvious failing to trace all the Riddler's photos back to the same apartment that you can see him hiding in during the first act). It was a nice touch without sacrificing the action or spectacle as a result. I'm really looking forward to what the next two films offer.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I also saw it yesterday as well. Pattinson was great. He has this slow demeanor thing about his batman, that almost makes him look like a statue at times. The film reminded me that Christopher Nolan is the master of pace. I also found the film's lighting to be too dimmed. It's looking like a trend now though, but I prefer a bit of visibility. The film is great, but Nolan is still the best Batman director. It would be tough to top Nolan's Batman trilogy.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,134
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I also finally got to see it on HBO Max yesterday, I think I'd rank it as my second favorite Batman film but nowhere near the level of The Dark Knight still. Pattinson was great, I thought the rest of the cast was excellent, especially Zoe, but the inclusion of CGI in some of the fight scene was super jarring (I thought it was an artistic choice but regardless, it looked rough) and the film does start to drag during the final act. I was surprised how much of the grand scheme (the flooding, the Riddler's capture) was showcased in the marketing, considering these moments would've made for a much stronger reveal without previewing them so heavily beforehand. I'd say one of my favorite aspects of it is showing Batman as an imperfect superhero, a budding detective who's still able to overlook big clues (like the Spanish language bit that the Penguin rightfully corrects, or the glaringly obvious failing to trace all the Riddler's photos back to the same apartment that you can see him hiding in during the first act). It was a nice touch without sacrificing the action or spectacle as a result. I'm really looking forward to what the next two films offer.

    I am a huge Planet of the Apes fan of all the films. I do like Reeves two films though I think as a film maker he has pacing issues especielly The War of the Planet of the Apes. Those pacing issues are very evident in The Batman, I often switched off and I think a lot could have been cut from this film.
  • edited April 2022 Posts: 4,166
    I need to rewatch The Batman soon. I liked it a lot, actually more than TDK. While Ledger's Joker and his presence in the film are the biggest selling points for the latter, both it and The Batman have script flaws (with The Batman it's the fact that Riddler's plan in the third act is just kind of sprung on the audience, no foreshadowing of the water damns being unstable or easy to blow etc. With TDK it's things like the fact that Gordon fakes his death when there's no benefit to him doing so, neither does it make sense in the context of the film and is used to add tension to a film lagging in the middle).

    What puts The Batman ahead of TDK for me is the filmmaking, the story, and direction. The cinematography is excellent, but it's a film rich in detail all round. We can actually hear the leather of Batman's suit in the sound design, the echo of his footsteps. It immersed me in the film and felt real. This just isn't seen as much in the Nolan films. I understand Nolan is an admired director but he does have a habit of sloppy filmmaking by comparison that leaves me rather cold (the sound design in Tenet is a major example and distracts from the film. Same for the fact that he choses to shoot many fight scenes in TDK and TDKR with wider shots, thus making the choreography rather visible. Distracting stuff, again very sloppy for such a famed director). I prefer seeing Batman as a detective figure too so I enjoyed that aspect of the movie. Gotham feels much more vivid than Nolan's run of the mill depiction of it which is basically just Chicago. I always hated the end of TDK too. Batman spends so much time standing by Gotham and Nolan shows how its citizens ultimately do the right thing even under dire circumstances (the people on the boat at the end) and yet his Batman doesn't have enough faith in the city to tell them the truth. Instead he lies to them, pits everyone against him as some sort of 'enemy' for them to rally against. Very odd, cynical decision that's not expanded on by Nolan in his next film. Reeve's Batman is flawed - he has a deep anger - but ultimately believes that he and the rest of the city can transform and be better.

    It's not as good as The Mask of the Phantasm but I enjoyed The Batman a lot.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited April 2022 Posts: 25,134
    The Mask of the Phantasm is number one for me.

    Often if I don't like a film on first watch I like it later and vice versa.

    Though I hated The Last Jedi on first watch and that never changed.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited April 2022 Posts: 25,134
    The biggest plus is Pattinson was a brilliant Batman and seeing him as Batman for the majority of the film was a major plus. It reminded me of BTAS

    The bottom line there is nothing in The Batman that gets close to the pre title sequence of NTTD

    NTTD pre title sequence is greatness and admittedly a high bar.
  • Posts: 9,847
    mind you I only re watched the first 10 minutes but its amazing how a good monologue can change you from sad to excited.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,134
    Batman's monologue was great then it vanished for long periods of the film. It reminded me of Rorschach and immediately locked me into The Batman
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Battinson saved the film. He was really good.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,134
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Battinson saved the film. He was really good.

    Major plus I think on second watch I will pay even more attention to his performance and subtle reactions.
  • edited April 2022 Posts: 4,166
    The monologue is so good. It reminded me of Darren Aronsofsky's script for Batman: Year One which he wrote in the early 2000s and depicts a more mentally unstable Bruce Wayne. I even questioned whether it was Batman or someone like Riddler when I first watched it (the film plays so well with how Batman and Riddler are one step away from each other and how violent/angry this iteration of the character is. That's why I found it so refreshing to have the more optimistic ending).
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Battinson saved the film. He was really good.

    Major plus I think on second watch I will pay even more attention to his performance and subtle reactions.

    Exactly! Those subtle reactions of his. I really enjoyed those.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    007HallY wrote: »
    I need to rewatch The Batman soon. I liked it a lot, actually more than TDK. While Ledger's Joker and his presence in the film are the biggest selling points for the latter, both it and The Batman have script flaws (with The Batman it's the fact that Riddler's plan in the third act is just kind of sprung on the audience, no foreshadowing of the water damns being unstable or easy to blow etc. With TDK it's things like the fact that Gordon fakes his death when there's no benefit to him doing so, neither does it make sense in the context of the film and is used to add tension to a film lagging in the middle).

    What puts The Batman ahead of TDK for me is the filmmaking, the story, and direction. The cinematography is excellent, but it's a film rich in detail all round. We can actually hear the leather of Batman's suit in the sound design, the echo of his footsteps. It immersed me in the film and felt real. This just isn't seen as much in the Nolan films. I understand Nolan is an admired director but he does have a habit of sloppy filmmaking by comparison that leaves me rather cold (the sound design in Tenet is a major example and distracts from the film. Same for the fact that he choses to shoot many fight scenes in TDK and TDKR with wider shots, thus making the choreography rather visible. Distracting stuff, again very sloppy for such a famed director). I prefer seeing Batman as a detective figure too so I enjoyed that aspect of the movie. Gotham feels much more vivid than Nolan's run of the mill depiction of it which is basically just Chicago. I always hated the end of TDK too. Batman spends so much time standing by Gotham and Nolan shows how its citizens ultimately do the right thing even under dire circumstances (the people on the boat at the end) and yet his Batman doesn't have enough faith in the city to tell them the truth. Instead he lies to them, pits everyone against him as some sort of 'enemy' for them to rally against. Very odd, cynical decision that's not expanded on by Nolan in his next film. Reeve's Batman is flawed - he has a deep anger - but ultimately believes that he and the rest of the city can transform and be better.

    It's not as good as The Mask of the Phantasm but I enjoyed The Batman a lot.

    As much as I love TDK, every time I rewatch it I find even more inconsistencies and issues with the plot and storytelling. There are so many one in a million chance situations that drive the Joker's goals, it's really absurd and helps take me out of the experience a lot of the time. The biggest one for me is diverting the convoy carrying Dent by a burning firetruck. It's clearly a trap, why not go down the other street instead? It's ridiculous.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited April 2022 Posts: 25,134
    The Batman on second viewing it is good though its been done better.

    I think I am being generous.

    Joker is far more engaging than this.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,134
    Pattinson is an awesome Batman.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited April 2022 Posts: 25,134
    When we first see Bat's wow amazing shots of the detective. Some of the best Batman scenes I have ever seen.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited April 2022 Posts: 25,134

    I train and this is good.

    I incorporate a lot of what is shown in my own training.

  • Posts: 4,166
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I need to rewatch The Batman soon. I liked it a lot, actually more than TDK. While Ledger's Joker and his presence in the film are the biggest selling points for the latter, both it and The Batman have script flaws (with The Batman it's the fact that Riddler's plan in the third act is just kind of sprung on the audience, no foreshadowing of the water damns being unstable or easy to blow etc. With TDK it's things like the fact that Gordon fakes his death when there's no benefit to him doing so, neither does it make sense in the context of the film and is used to add tension to a film lagging in the middle).

    What puts The Batman ahead of TDK for me is the filmmaking, the story, and direction. The cinematography is excellent, but it's a film rich in detail all round. We can actually hear the leather of Batman's suit in the sound design, the echo of his footsteps. It immersed me in the film and felt real. This just isn't seen as much in the Nolan films. I understand Nolan is an admired director but he does have a habit of sloppy filmmaking by comparison that leaves me rather cold (the sound design in Tenet is a major example and distracts from the film. Same for the fact that he choses to shoot many fight scenes in TDK and TDKR with wider shots, thus making the choreography rather visible. Distracting stuff, again very sloppy for such a famed director). I prefer seeing Batman as a detective figure too so I enjoyed that aspect of the movie. Gotham feels much more vivid than Nolan's run of the mill depiction of it which is basically just Chicago. I always hated the end of TDK too. Batman spends so much time standing by Gotham and Nolan shows how its citizens ultimately do the right thing even under dire circumstances (the people on the boat at the end) and yet his Batman doesn't have enough faith in the city to tell them the truth. Instead he lies to them, pits everyone against him as some sort of 'enemy' for them to rally against. Very odd, cynical decision that's not expanded on by Nolan in his next film. Reeve's Batman is flawed - he has a deep anger - but ultimately believes that he and the rest of the city can transform and be better.

    It's not as good as The Mask of the Phantasm but I enjoyed The Batman a lot.

    As much as I love TDK, every time I rewatch it I find even more inconsistencies and issues with the plot and storytelling. There are so many one in a million chance situations that drive the Joker's goals, it's really absurd and helps take me out of the experience a lot of the time. The biggest one for me is diverting the convoy carrying Dent by a burning firetruck. It's clearly a trap, why not go down the other street instead? It's ridiculous.

    I don't mind things like Joker getting kidnapped just to escape again (same for when Silva did it in SF). The Gordon example is the one which always took me out of the film. But yeah, there's a lot of odd plot points which may or may not get noticed.

    I do like TDK, but I'm don't personally think it's the masterpiece many claim it is (although Ledger's performance is spectacular and the character carries the film). Nolan can be a strange director too.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    The Batman on second viewing it is good though its been done better.

    I think I am being generous.

    Joker is far more engaging than this.

    See, I just wasn't as impressed with Joker. I still liked it, think I gave it a 3/5 after I saw it in theaters a few weeks after its release, but beyond Phoenix's performance, it didn't really move or stun me like it did for most others.
  • Posts: 4,166
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The Batman on second viewing it is good though its been done better.

    I think I am being generous.

    Joker is far more engaging than this.

    See, I just wasn't as impressed with Joker. I still liked it, think I gave it a 3/5 after I saw it in theaters a few weeks after its release, but beyond Phoenix's performance, it didn't really move or stun me like it did for most others.

    I feel if you've seen Taxi Driver and King of Comedy it tends not to impress viewers as much. I liked it, but I agree it didn't stun me.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,134
    007HallY wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The Batman on second viewing it is good though its been done better.

    I think I am being generous.

    Joker is far more engaging than this.

    See, I just wasn't as impressed with Joker. I still liked it, think I gave it a 3/5 after I saw it in theaters a few weeks after its release, but beyond Phoenix's performance, it didn't really move or stun me like it did for most others.

    I feel if you've seen Taxi Driver and King of Comedy it tends not to impress viewers as much. I liked it, but I agree it didn't stun me.

    I have seen both Scorsese films countless times and if anything the homages made me appreciate the Joker more.

    I loved the unreliable narrater aspect of the Joker which I felt added an extra dimension to the film, like The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight to pick two examples the Joker lies a lot.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    007HallY wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The Batman on second viewing it is good though its been done better.

    I think I am being generous.

    Joker is far more engaging than this.

    See, I just wasn't as impressed with Joker. I still liked it, think I gave it a 3/5 after I saw it in theaters a few weeks after its release, but beyond Phoenix's performance, it didn't really move or stun me like it did for most others.

    I feel if you've seen Taxi Driver and King of Comedy it tends not to impress viewers as much. I liked it, but I agree it didn't stun me.

    I have seen both Scorsese films countless times and if anything the homages made me appreciate the Joker more.

    I loved the unreliable narrater aspect of the Joker which I felt added an extra dimension to the film, like The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight to pick two examples the Joker lies a lot.

    Exactly. The film 'Joker' captured the essence of what the character is to me: elusive, impossible to understand, defying rational assessment.

    I also understand why some people prefer to leave Joker out of Reeve's films but to be honest, I don't think that will happen. Most audiences will, I think, still expect the Joker at some point. And Joker's commercial appeal will no doubt pressure WB into bringing him in as well. Some other suggestions made here, including Clock King and Bookworm, sound good to me too, except that they may be frowned upon by those who rarely explore the DC universe.

    Personally, I would try to mix in some A list villains we've already seen in past movies but which were then done in a--eh--"creative" way. The ones that are thus up for a live-action second appreciation include Ivy, Freeze, and Two-Face (my one let-down from the Nolan era). Seeing how well Reeve handled Penguin, I'm especially interested in an upgraded Ivy and Freeze, much like how these two were handled in the Arkham video games, I'd say.

    And then there are my personal favourites: Hatter, Hush, Clayface. If we allow a little fantasy to leak into these films, those would be my preferred choices.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
    007HallY wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The Batman on second viewing it is good though its been done better.

    I think I am being generous.

    Joker is far more engaging than this.

    See, I just wasn't as impressed with Joker. I still liked it, think I gave it a 3/5 after I saw it in theaters a few weeks after its release, but beyond Phoenix's performance, it didn't really move or stun me like it did for most others.

    I feel if you've seen Taxi Driver and King of Comedy it tends not to impress viewers as much. I liked it, but I agree it didn't stun me.

    I’ve always found Taxi Driver too be a bit overrated. That’s me, it’s still a good movie. As for Joker, if they do a sequel, bring in more comic book characters. Honestly, for the Batman sequel, I’d like to see the Bat-Family to get a second chance on screen. It’s been too long.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The Batman on second viewing it is good though its been done better.

    I think I am being generous.

    Joker is far more engaging than this.

    See, I just wasn't as impressed with Joker. I still liked it, think I gave it a 3/5 after I saw it in theaters a few weeks after its release, but beyond Phoenix's performance, it didn't really move or stun me like it did for most others.

    I feel if you've seen Taxi Driver and King of Comedy it tends not to impress viewers as much. I liked it, but I agree it didn't stun me.

    I’ve always found Taxi Driver too be a bit overrated. That’s me, it’s still a good movie. As for Joker, if they do a sequel, bring in more comic book characters. Honestly, for the Batman sequel, I’d like to see the Bat-Family to get a second chance on screen. It’s been too long.

    I think they're setting us up for that. Pattinson has the right age to come off as a young Batman who is nevertheless already capable of mentoring a 'ward'.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,134
    I saw the deleted Joker scene and I felt it was the right decision to omit it, the Riddler needed to be the main focus.

    Its was certainly a very dark looking Joker though I would rather see some unused (on the big screen) characters from Batman's rogues gallery next. Admittedly more often than not Joker = more bums on seats $$$

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
    https://www.cbr.com/batgirl-theater-launch-hbo-max-report/

    I thought they should have done this to begin with.
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