The Bond Girl as a character

Ludovico

One disclaimer: this is NOT a casting thread. There is another one for it. I am wondering about the Bond girl as a character: what would make a good background for her, what are her motivations, her relation to the plot, the villain, etc.

samainsy

I think one should be a lesbian agent for CIA or something then turn to straight at the end.

Ludovico

samainsy wrote:

I think one should be a lesbian agent for CIA or something then turn to straight at the end.

Oh please!

Murdock

Ludovico wrote:

samainsy wrote:

I think one should be a lesbian agent for CIA or something then turn to straight at the end.

Oh please!

Oddly enough that happened with Pussy Galore in the Goldfinger Novel IIRC.

Ludovico

Murdock wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

samainsy wrote:

I think one should be a lesbian agent for CIA or something then turn to straight at the end.

Oh please!

Oddly enough that happened with Pussy Galore in the Goldfinger Novel IIRC.

I know it did. And that's my problem: it already did! I am all for revisiting past Bond, but making a carbon copy Bond girl of a previous Bond girl? Yes, some will have similarities. But this is way too similar to Pussy Galore.

Murdock

Ludovico wrote:

Murdock wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

samainsy wrote:

I think one should be a lesbian agent for CIA or something then turn to straight at the end.

Oh please!

Oddly enough that happened with Pussy Galore in the Goldfinger Novel IIRC.

I know it did. And that's my problem: it already did! I am all for revisiting past Bond, but making a carbon copy Bond girl of a previous Bond girl? Yes, some will have similarities. But this is way too similar to Pussy Galore.

Yeah, but the film version of Pussy was never like that. I'm all for the idea.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

Does this question pertain to Bond 24 or just what we like in Bond girls in general?

Ludovico

The film version was a lesbian, although it was implied. That said, some of Pussy Galore's novel background could be used for a new Bond girl. Her being a criminal for instance. We had Catwoman featured in the last Batman movie, so maybe it is too recent, but I always wondered about a cat burglar for a Bond girl. Female secret agents have been featured way too often I think, so are the ''evil'' Bond girl, but a Bond girl who is a small-time criminal, operating outside the law, but not evil as the villain is (murderer, terrorist, what have you), would be interesting.

Ludovico

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:

Does this question pertain to Bond 24 or just what we like in Bond girls in general?

Future Bond girls in general.

thelivingroyale

I want another Elektra King. An intelligent, sexy, manipulative psychopath as the main villain.

Ludovico

thelivingroyale wrote:

I want another Elektra King. An intelligent, sexy, manipulative psychopath as the main villain.

Again, this has been done before. In TWINE and more recently in another franchise (Batman).

thelivingroyale

Ludovico wrote:

thelivingroyale wrote:

I want another Elektra King. An intelligent, sexy, manipulative psychopath as the main villain.

Again, this has been done before. In TWINE and more recently in another franchise (Batman).

It's been done before, so? It's not like that's stopped them before. The evil ex agent villain angle was done in GE, didn't stop them using it again for SF.

Other examples include the Bond girl being a friendly agent and the evil rich business man villain. Both of those have been used countless times throughout the franchise.

And when was it done in Batman? You mean Liam Neesons daughter? She wasn't an intelligent manipulative psychopath or even the main villian. She was a poorly executed plot twist about 10 minutes from the end.

Ludovico wrote:

The film version was a lesbian, although it was implied. That said, some of Pussy Galore's novel background could be used for a new Bond girl. Her being a criminal for instance. We had Catwoman featured in the last Batman movie, so maybe it is too recent, but I always wondered about a cat burglar for a Bond girl. Female secret agents have been featured way too often I think, so are the ''evil'' Bond girl, but a Bond girl who is a small-time criminal, operating outside the law, but not evil as the villain is (murderer, terrorist, what have you), would be interesting.

Sorry, Batman did it before so you're not allowed that idea.

4EverBonded

Maybe someone unlikely or different.
Like a member of a royal family (any country) - Bond meets her in an odd or unlikely place, helps her out, sparks fly/major attraction (but where can that go?) - then it turns out she or her family have connections to some villain/evil group (Quantum let's say) and things get trickier. But having the woman be in an unusual role/occupation to start with could be fun and interesting. Beautiful of course, but doesn't have to be typical kind of beauty. Good actress please, though!

Ludovico

thelivingroyale wrote:

I want another Elektra King. An intelligent, sexy, manipulative psychopath as the main villain.

Again, this has been done before. In TWINE and more recently in another franchise (Batman).[/quote]

It's been done before, so? It's not like that's stopped them before. The evil ex agent villain angle was done in GE, didn't stop them using it again for SF.

Other examples include the Bond girl being a friendly agent and the evil rich business man villain. Both of those have been used countless times throughout the franchise.

And when was it done in Batman? You mean Liam Neesons daughter? She wasn't an intelligent manipulative psychopath or even the main villian. She was a poorly executed plot twist about 10 minutes from the end.

Ludovico wrote:

The film version was a lesbian, although it was implied. That said, some of Pussy Galore's novel background could be used for a new Bond girl. Her being a criminal for instance. We had Catwoman featured in the last Batman movie, so maybe it is too recent, but I always wondered about a cat burglar for a Bond girl. Female secret agents have been featured way too often I think, so are the ''evil'' Bond girl, but a Bond girl who is a small-time criminal, operating outside the law, but not evil as the villain is (murderer, terrorist, what have you), would be interesting.

Sorry, Batman did it before so you're not allowed that idea.[/quote]

Oh darnit! I SAID maybe the cat burglar Bond girl might be too early to show if it is done in Bond 24. And yes OF COURSE you will see things being repeated, but hopefully NOT as a carbon. yes, the evil businessman has been done often, that is why I hope they use this archetype sparingly now. It sort of work with Greene as he was much lower profile than, say, Goldfinger, Carver, etc. and his businessman persona was mainly a cover. And yes, I was refering to Talia in the Batman franchise, which pretty much has the same role in the movie as Elektra in TWINE, heck the more proheminent antagonists in both movies share a lot too!

Ludovico

4EverBonded wrote:

Maybe someone unlikely or different.
Like a member of a royal family (any country) - Bond meets her in an odd or unlikely place, helps her out, sparks fly/major attraction (but where can that go?) - then it turns out she or her family have connections to some villain/evil group (Quantum let's say) and things get trickier. But having the woman be in an unusual role/occupation to start with could be fun and interesting. Beautiful of course, but doesn't have to be typical kind of beauty. Good actress please, though!

I like the damsel-in-distress/fish out of water kind of Bond girl: oblivious to the world of Bond and caught in it against her will, like Honey Ryder or Domino. We did not see many of them recently.

The Bond girl could be be of a profession the villain needs: a linguist (maybe too reminiscent of The Interpreter?) or a doctor (see if the villain has a certain medical condition and needs to be treated), she could be abducted. Or she could be a secretary working for the legit front of the evil organisation (say Quantum).

thelivingroyale

Ludovico wrote:

And yes, I was refering to Talia in the Batman franchise, which pretty much has the same role in the movie as Elektra in TWINE

In both movies, the main villain was actually working for them. That's the only similarity there is. The execution and the characters themselves are completely different.

Ludovico wrote:

And yes OF COURSE you will see things being repeated, but hopefully NOT as a carbon.

I never said that I wanted a carbon copy. I never said I wanted her to start off good and then have it revealed that the villain is in love with her and that she's been the true baddie all along.

I said I wanted another Elektra because I wanted a female villian with those character traits.

A characters personality is like is not the same as the characters backstory or the characters role in the story. Maybe consider that before you start shooting my ideas down because of sodding Batman.

DB5

Well she could be a KGB agent working alongside Bond but that's been done already (The Spy Who Loved Me). Or she could be a Mossad agent but that was done in a Harry Palmer film (Funeral in Berlin) as well as in a Gardner novel (Icebreaker). Yeah, maybe a professional cat burglar that MI6 has Bond contact to help them steal some type of secret code or device from the Russians. At first their relationship is just professional but Bond being Bond; well, you know.

JRR

A new Bond girl needs to be strikingly attractive, quietly very intelligent, with many skills concealed behind a subtle façade; her character could be built around sightings in places of political or criminal controversy, with little hard evidence but enough speculation to have her draw some attention to herself for Bond to have the necessary encounter.

Her character could be presented as a possible spy for a larger evil empire, or even an ally from another friendly intelligence service, but her true motives must not be revealed. Even if sometimes she were to help Bond her involvement must be cloaked with ambiguity so that the option of her appearing in future films is made available, with only occasional hint to who she might be and her possible motivations.

Maybe she is biding her time to be accepted into his confidence with an ulterior agenda that cannot be hatched until the right time and opportunity. Maybe she wants to know him, up-close and personal to get an idea of how he operates and whether there are significant weaknesses she, or maybe if she has one, her employer can exploit.

There is a lot of potentially nice idea’s running through this thread, and to pick up on the Batman conversation, Anne Hathaway as the gorgeous cat burglar was, “So right in every way”. Much appreciation for casting her and her performance..

DB5

4EverBonded wrote:

Maybe someone unlikely or different.
Like a member of a royal family (any country) - Bond meets her in an odd or unlikely place, helps her out, sparks fly/major attraction (but where can that go?) - then it turns out she or her family have connections to some villain/evil group (Quantum let's say) and things get trickier. But having the woman be in an unusual role/occupation to start with could be fun and interesting. Beautiful of course, but doesn't have to be typical kind of beauty. Good actress please, though!

Great idea 4EB! Like Princess Caroline of Monaco. Gives Bond an excuse to visit the casinos. Of course Bond has an affair with her, but little does he know that she's actually the mistress of a high level KGB agent. Maybe I should write the screenplay and send it to Eon!

Ludovico

thelivingroyale wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

And yes, I was refering to Talia in the Batman franchise, which pretty much has the same role in the movie as Elektra in TWINE

In both movies, the main villain was actually working for them. That's the only similarity there is. The execution and the characters themselves are completely different.

Ludovico wrote:

And yes OF COURSE you will see things being repeated, but hopefully NOT as a carbon.

I never said that I wanted a carbon copy. I never said I wanted her to start off good and then have it revealed that the villain is in love with her and that she's been the true baddie all along.

I said I wanted another Elektra because I wanted a female villian with those character traits.

A characters personality is like is not the same as the characters backstory or the characters role in the story. Maybe consider that before you start shooting my ideas down because of sodding Batman.

AND both front antagonists had a similar condition regarding pain, and both Elektra and Talia were motivated by what they inherited from their father, both were romantically tight to the hero...

I am not shooting your ideas down, I have serious reservations about them. Nuance. I have reservations about my OWN idea of a cat burglar Bond girl.

thelivingroyale

Renard can't feel pain and is dying. Bane has a mask that if removed, will cause him lots of pain.

And I'll say AGAIN, I never said I wanted anything similar to the TWINE idea.

I just said I wanted a strong female villain who's similar to Elektra. I never said I wanted the story to be similar did I?

4EverBonded

DB5 wrote:

4EverBonded wrote:

Maybe someone unlikely or different.
Like a member of a royal family (any country) - Bond meets her in an odd or unlikely place, helps her out, sparks fly/major attraction (but where can that go?) - then it turns out she or her family have connections to some villain/evil group (Quantum let's say) and things get trickier. But having the woman be in an unusual role/occupation to start with could be fun and interesting. Beautiful of course, but doesn't have to be typical kind of beauty. Good actress please, though!

Great idea 4EB! Like Princess Caroline of Monaco. Gives Bond an excuse to visit the casinos. Of course Bond has an affair with her, but little does he know that she's actually the mistress of a high level KGB agent. Maybe I should write the screenplay and send it to Eon!

I do like a royal connection somehow. Not just the daughter of a shipping magnate, etc. Maybe you could join the Writer Guild first and then you get a real crack at having a screenplay read. :) That would be lovely. My dream, too.

Ludovico

thelivingroyale wrote:

Renard can't feel pain and is dying. Bane has a mask that if removed, will cause him lots of pain.

And I'll say AGAIN, I never said I wanted anything similar to the TWINE idea.

I just said I wanted a strong female villain who's similar to Elektra. I never said I wanted the story to be similar did I?

So both villains have a connection to pain and are depicted (inconsistently for Renard) as impervious to pain. Both are anarchists. Not to mention their relation with the female villain, etc.

I am not so certain about another female main villain, not only because it has been done before relatively recently, but because I would rather see something that has been done very little before and only a long time ago: the ugly butch villain (Irma Bunt, Rosa Klebb). And female Bond girls have been done very often (although yes, rarely as a main villain).

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

Ludovico wrote:

thelivingroyale wrote:

Renard can't feel pain and is dying. Bane has a mask that if removed, will cause him lots of pain.

And I'll say AGAIN, I never said I wanted anything similar to the TWINE idea.

I just said I wanted a strong female villain who's similar to Elektra. I never said I wanted the story to be similar did I?

So both villains have a connection to pain and are depicted (inconsistently for Renard) as impervious to pain. Both are anarchists. Not to mention their relation with the female villain, etc.

I am not so certain about another female main villain, not only because it has been done before relatively recently, but because I would rather see something that has been done very little before and only a long time ago: the ugly butch villain (Irma Bunt, Rosa Klebb). And female Bond girls have been done very often (although yes, rarely as a main villain).

Well, it is customary for Bond girls to be female. =))

thelivingroyale

Ludovico wrote:

And female Bond girls have been done very often.

Your right. Female Bond girls are way too overused. Let's have a tranny for Bond 24.

Ludovico wrote:

I am not so certain about another female main villain, not only because it has been done before relatively recently

It's been done, wait for it, a shocking total of once before! (unless you count Klebb as the main villain of FRWL, and even then it's only been done twice).

It was done in TWINE. The evil ex agent idea was used in GE but that didn't stop them using it for SF.

Have you been uncertain about almost every Bond film because a male main villain had been done before?

Like it is with all the male villians, the execution could be completely different to past movies (or movie actually, in this case).

4EverBonded

I like Helen Mirren as a main villain. Villainess. Whatever.

Or Kim Kardashian as a minor bit part henchwoman - and kill her off early. Like in the PTS.... :D

I have no problem with a female villain. And Onatopp was a great henchwoman.
Evil, pscyho ... that can be done again, it doesn't have to copy anything exactly.
Just needs to be well written.

Ludovico

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

thelivingroyale wrote:

Renard can't feel pain and is dying. Bane has a mask that if removed, will cause him lots of pain.

And I'll say AGAIN, I never said I wanted anything similar to the TWINE idea.

I just said I wanted a strong female villain who's similar to Elektra. I never said I wanted the story to be similar did I?

So both villains have a connection to pain and are depicted (inconsistently for Renard) as impervious to pain. Both are anarchists. Not to mention their relation with the female villain, etc.

I am not so certain about another female main villain, not only because it has been done before relatively recently, but because I would rather see something that has been done very little before and only a long time ago: the ugly butch villain (Irma Bunt, Rosa Klebb). And female Bond girls have been done very often (although yes, rarely as a main villain).

Well, it is customary for Bond girls to be female. =))

My bad, it was a typo. Villain Bond girls, I meant.

Ludovico

thelivingroyale wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

And female Bond girls have been done very often.

Your right. Female Bond girls are way too overused. Let's have a tranny for Bond 24.

Ludovico wrote:

I am not so certain about another female main villain, not only because it has been done before relatively recently

It's been done, wait for it, a shocking total of once before! (unless you count Klebb as the main villain of FRWL, and even then it's only been done twice).

It was done in TWINE. The evil ex agent idea was used in GE but that didn't stop them using it for SF.

Have you been uncertain about almost every Bond film because a male main villain had been done before?

Like it is with all the male villians, the execution could be completely different to past movies (or movie actually, in this case).

You are building straw men. The ''female Bond girl'' was obviously a typo. It is late here and I'm tired. Sexy female villains have been done often before, but ugly ones very rarely as I mentioned earlier. There are two genders in mankind, obviously Bond villains will come in one or the other. Certain types of villains have been I think overdone: the evil businessman, the Grant-clone, the sexy henchwoman, etc. Certain types of Bond girls too. Not that I do not want to see them from all eternity, I am merely saying that maybe they have to vary a bit. Yes, the traitor agent has been done before Skyfall, but Trevelyan and Silva were very different in appearance, background and motivations. They had one thing in common: they were both from MI6. Obviously, I expect to see Bond girls working from MI6 and other agencies in the future. I do hope however than we do not see in every movie a Bond girl who is a secret agent.

Ludovico

4EverBonded wrote:

I have no problem with a female villain. And Onatopp was a great henchwoman.
Evil, pscyho ... that can be done again, it doesn't have to copy anything exactly.
Just needs to be well written.

Onatopp was a caricature. Good looking, but otherwise she was way too cartoony. I like GE, heck I used to love it, Famke Jansenn is a beautiful, great actress, but the character was at best mediocre.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

4EverBonded wrote:

I like Helen Mirren as a main villain. Villainess. Whatever.

Or Kim Kardashian as a minor bit part henchwoman - and kill her off early. Like in the PTS.... :D

I have no problem with a female villain. And Onatopp was a great henchwoman.
Evil, pscyho ... that can be done again, it doesn't have to copy anything exactly.
Just needs to be well written.

Don't even joke about that!!!

4EverBonded

Well I did say kill her off early! That might be satisying for some ...

... and don't sick your hamster/groundhog/squirrel/whatever rodent that is on me! :-SS