God and Ian Fleming

Perilagu_Khan

Ludovico wrote:

''Now in order to tell the difference between good and evil we have manufactured two images representing the extremes-representing the deepest black and the purest white-and we call them God and the Devil.''

In plain English, he said that the manufactured images are named God and the Devil and that they represent abstract concepts. Not that mankind named two images after real beings, not that said images represent anything else than human abstractions, not that they borrowed the names of real beings. Bond might believe in a higher power, But he does not show much devotion here.

Of course Bond doesn't say that the images are named after real beings because he's talking about images, not beings. Therefore, this passage has very little to do with God and Satan, and everything to do with concepts of good and evil. It tells us almost nothing about Bond's religious beliefs.

Ludovico

It says very little about Bond's own religious beliefs, but it does say something about his perception of the religious beliefs of his contemporaries.

timmer

I've moved this post over here. It fits better with this thread topic.

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

I see no evidence in the Bond books nor in the numerous biographies of Fleming I have read that ever make a single mention of God or a profession of 'faith'.

But I'm sure you can put me straight.

Fleming was not a Christian, at least not a declared person of faith, but he was definitely familiar with Christian themes and did play with them in his books. His musings regarding the Christian vice "accidie" is very stark. It's a vice that St. Thomas Acquinas warns about and expands upon at length. In fact its the one "vice" that Bond was absolutely, unequivocably opposed to. He (Bond/Fleming) wasn't as concerned about some of the others.
The most brazen Christian reference I think is in DN, where Bond/Fleming openly muses about the disposition of souls. Bond is certain that Quarrel and No would not go to the same place. Fleming clearly believed in a final dispostion of souls.
Fleming was an educated man who dabbled with Christian themes, which is not uncommon in literature. There are other references in the books, more oblique, but one does have to be familiar with the themes in order to recognize them.
I think that Bond's personal moto, "I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time," although a Flemingism, is quite consistent with gospel teaching, and is sage advice for anyone to follow. ie, our task here on earth is to live each day, to use our talents for the greater good, and not spend undo time navel-gazing over the futility of it all, fearing to act etc, which is the accidie that Fleming was so opposed to.
Fleming was an interesting man. There is much of interest to be gleaned from his scribblings, including his occasional theological musings.



@Perilagu_Khan Fancy meeting you here. A Fleming authority if ever there was one. ~O)

Perilagu_Khan

Yes, quite the coincidence us meeting up over here, eh, timmer? ;)) And excellent points in your post. I'd forgotten about that section in DN.

timmer

I'd also forgotten about all the bizarre supernatural references in the Fleming ouevre, such as we find in FRWL and YOLT ( the statues). I think from my own reading of Fleming, is that he was decidely not Christian, in that he didn't profess a faith, but it does seem that he did believe in God, and was willing to entertain, even believe some Christian themes. His musing on the supernatural, seem to suggest that he was genuinely curious about matters supernatural and religious, religion being of the supernatural anyway. It seems he was open to the possibilities, but his core task was to engage esponiage thriller-writing and the adventures of Bond. He was not a man of Christian conviction such as CS Lewis or Tolkein for example. Fleming merely dabbled in what he found intriguing, occasionally expressing a scattershot belief.
Flemings' belief in God, or at least the possiblity, also comes through loud and clear in LALD, as you suggested earlier. With Bond and Solitaire facing imminent death at the hands of Big's reef torture, Bond does say a prayer, and a prayer to God, "What happened to the blasted mine? Bond thought a quick fervent prayer. God save us, he said into the water."
It does seem that Fleming did believe in God, but the nature of God was something he only mused about. I think he leans more towards agnostic though, but open to other possiblities. Fleming was a good man IMO. He'd have your back.

Ludovico

Fleming might have been an agnostic theist, or agnostic deist.

Incidentally, talking about Fleming's interest in the supernatural, his brother Robert Fleming wrote a great werewolf story. I often wondered that Fleming himself would have made a great horror story writer.

Perilagu_Khan

Fleming was an acquaintance of Aleister Crowley, the noted occultist. Make of that what you will. But one thing's for sure, Fleming certainly had a taste for the macabre. At one point--I forget where; YOLT, I think--he makes mention of Poe, Byshe, and a French horror writer (de Sade?), and elements of horror fiction pervade Fleming's oeuvre. One may find them in virtually all of his individual works, including "The Hildebrand Rarity," which I just finished reading. I refer, of course, to the manner by which Milton Krest was murdered.

Ludovico

Mathis mentions de Sade in CR. Although Sade did not write horror, he wrote erotic (or pornographic) literature.

timmer

I think Fleming's little sidetrips into the macabre, supernatural, theology etc are what give his books a distinct edge. His technique, though often quite up-front, is still somewhat understated, as his diversions never manage to subvert the main task, which is to keep Bond on mission. When you finish one of his books, you feel satsified to have read an engaging spy adventure-thriller, and do feel somewhat connected and pleased with this fellow Bond and his ability to persevere and get things done.
However nagging at one's mind is also this feeling that we've also indulged a forbidden pleasure, something secretive, bizarre, almost twilight-zonish. There remains this feeling of experiencing a glimpse into the very active imagination of the author. Fleming keeps Bond grounded in the natural world. In fact Bond revels in the sensory pleasures of the natural world, but Fleming also hints and teases at what else might lurk beyond the boundaries of the natural plain.
Makes for great reading and sets Fleming above his peers IMO.
That's why I think it's important that the films retain an element of fantasy or escapism, and as you like to call it Khanners, the benign bizarre. I think such an approach is in keeping with the Fleming tone. After all it was Fleming that introduced us to the bizzarro creature that was Dr. No, and his equally strange but fascinating island lair. Fleming's DN is as strange a tale as anything that Eon came up with in the films.

Perilagu_Khan

You're absolutely right, timmer. The Benign Bizarre owes practically everything to Fleming. Its filmic instantiation was there right from the beginning with Dr. No and probably reached its acme with LALD and Gun, but tapered off drastically, almost to the point of nonexistance with FYEO. Since then, the Benign Bizarre has reappeared in fits and starts, but has never been cultivated to the extent it was in LALD and Gun.

And you're right to tie this phenomenon in with Fleming's interest in the paranormal/occult/supernatural, and perforce, the afterlife. That interest certainly heightens the bizarre tang of his prose and his tales.

Ludovico

The novel YOLT is barely a spy story, almost a supernatural tale, James Bond's Apocalypse Now, with Blofeld as Satan. I don't think we will ever see one of the movies going that far, but there were elements of the novel in SF, I think.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

Ludovico wrote:

The novel YOLT is barely a spy story, almost a supernatural tale, James Bond's Apocalypse Now, with Blofeld as Satan. I don't think we will ever see one of the movies going that far, but there were elements of the novel in SF, I think.

I would love to see a Bond film adaption of Heart of Darkness. Bond gets the mission to go deep into dangerous territory to kill a defective MI6 agent and must deal with not only the deadly natives along the way but his own feels of growing respect he feels for the agent and wonders whether he will be able to kill him.

timmer

Ludovico wrote:

The novel YOLT is barely a spy story, almost a supernatural tale, James Bond's Apocalypse Now, with Blofeld as Satan. I don't think we will ever see one of the movies going that far, but there were elements of the novel in SF, I think.

Yes, YOLT is a fascinating read. It barely qualifies as a espionage thriller. Rather, Bond who has become quite useless as an agent due to his grief over Tracy's death, is dispatched on a seemingly harmless diplomatic mission to Japan. Then Fleming submerges us deep in Japanese culture, while we, the dear reader, along with Bond, are regaled by both Tiger and Dikko's ramblings regarding the state of the British empire, Japan's postwar adjustment to westernization, and other misc geopolitical offerings, as the three of them consume copious amounts of booze and indulge much carousing.
Eventually Fleming gets around to having Bond figure out that Blofeld and Bunt are the actual occupants of the Castle of Death and off we go, plunged into the bizarre adventure that is Bond's, now Bond the dragon slayer's, final showdown with the now seemingly demonic Blofeld and his toad mistress, presiding over their own private anti-Eden, hellish, Garden of Death. The benign bizarre is in full flourish. And then there is Bond's equally oddball immersion in the Japanese Ama-girl island culture. Fleming really outdid himself I think with this bizarre potpourri of sex, booze, politics, Japanese culture, espionage, darkness, danger, violent death and revenge.
I've always liked this little bit from Bond's Castle stand-off with Blofeld. I think it underscores Bond's generally glib and defiant attitude, no matter how dire the danger he faces. In fact, danger seems to amplify Bond's contempt for the deranged villainy, he must regularly withstand.
After enduring beatings and the torture of the Question Room, Bond standing naked but for a thong and facing imminent death before Blofeld, still finds time for this little riposte, "Well, Blofeld, you mad bastard. I'll admit that your effects man down below knows his stuff. Now bring on the twelve she-devils and if they are all as beautiful as Fraulein Bunt, we'll get Noel Coward to put it to music and have it on Broadway by Christmas. How about it?"
Brilliant. I love this line because Fleming takes pains to assure us that Bond still has it together. He cannot be beaten, at least not his spirit, which gives us renewed hope that he may yet persevere.
Craig, I thought captured this attitude well, with his smartass retorts to Le Chiffre during the CR ball-bashing session.
I think Bond filmmakers need to take note of this trait, if they find themselves tempted to experiment with a darker Bond. While Bond may have a dark side, as we all do to some extent, he is not a dark and depressing character. He is not the Dark Knight. Bond has a natural joie de vivre. This is often his default stance, even when faced with extreme adversity.

0013

You Only Live Twice is my favorite James Bond novel and one of my favorite books of all time, I must say. I mean, in my list is side to side with books by Umberto Eco, Italo Calvino and Jorge Luis Borges.
I could be great to have a faithful adaptation on the novel, but it wouldn't have that strong motive without the predecesor OHMSS. Maybe in many years from now we'll say another adaptation of the Blofeld trilogy.

timmer

Yes, I like to re-read it from time to time, if only for the great dialogue exchanges, especially between Bond, Tiger and Dikko. And then of course there is Blofeld's deranged rantings. Gold.
I also appreciate how Bunt seems so very wary of Bond, even if Blofeld seems to have developed an oblivious master-of-the-underworld complex.
Bunt was right to be wary as it turns out. Ernst should have paid her heed.

I wonder if you put Fleming's No and Blofeld in the same room, if they could abide each other's ravings.

Perilagu_Khan

timmer wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

The novel YOLT is barely a spy story, almost a supernatural tale, James Bond's Apocalypse Now, with Blofeld as Satan. I don't think we will ever see one of the movies going that far, but there were elements of the novel in SF, I think.

Yes, YOLT is a fascinating read. It barely qualifies as a espionage thriller. Rather, Bond who has become quite useless as an agent due to his grief over Tracy's death, is dispatched on a seemingly harmless diplomatic mission to Japan. Then Fleming submerges us deep in Japanese culture, while we, the dear reader, along with Bond, are regaled by both Tiger and Dikko's ramblings regarding the state of the British empire, Japan's postwar adjustment to westernization, and other misc geopolitical offerings, as the three of them consume copious amounts of booze and indulge much carousing.
Eventually Fleming gets around to having Bond figure out that Blofeld and Bunt are the actual occupants of the Castle of Death and off we go, plunged into the bizarre adventure that is Bond's, now Bond the dragon slayer's, final showdown with the now seemingly demonic Blofeld and his toad mistress, presiding over their own private anti-Eden, hellish, Garden of Death. The benign bizarre is in full flourish. And then there is Bond's equally oddball immersion in the Japanese Ama-girl island culture. Fleming really outdid himself I think with this bizarre potpourri of sex, booze, politics, Japanese culture, espionage, darkness, danger, violent death and revenge.
I've always liked this little bit from Bond's Castle stand-off with Blofeld. I think it underscores Bond's generally glib and defiant attitude, no matter how dire the danger he faces. In fact, danger seems to amplify Bond's contempt for the deranged villainy, he must regularly withstand.
After enduring beatings and the torture of the Question Room, Bond standing naked but for a thong and facing imminent death before Blofeld, still finds time for this little riposte, "Well, Blofeld, you mad bastard. I'll admit that your effects man down below knows his stuff. Now bring on the twelve she-devils and if they are all as beautiful as Fraulein Bunt, we'll get Noel Coward to put it to music and have it on Broadway by Christmas. How about it?"
Brilliant. I love this line because Fleming takes pains to assure us that Bond still has it together. He cannot be beaten, at least not his spirit, which gives us renewed hope that he may yet persevere.
Craig, I thought captured this attitude well, with his smartass retorts to Le Chiffre during the CR ball-bashing session.
I think Bond filmmakers need to take note of this trait, if they find themselves tempted to experiment with a darker Bond. While Bond may have a dark side, as we all do to some extent, he is not a dark and depressing character. He is not the Dark Knight. Bond has a natural joie de vivre. This is often his default stance, even when faced with extreme adversity.

True. Unfortunately, "The whole world will know you died scratching my balls!" somewhat lacks the panache of the Noel Coward quote. The screenwriters will have to up their game if they want to reach Fleming's level. Considerably.

And I agree completely that the filmmakers need to do a better job capturing Bond's joie de vivre, not to mention the bon vivant that is so much a part of Fleming's creation.

Ludovico

I think they managed to show a fair deal of the epicurean Bond in CR, but yes, I would love to see more of it too, although that should be for another thread.