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In saying that I would want there to be a double standard that would give other religions a justified reason to incorporate their beliefs into movies, yes, he has taken it out of context. I merely stated that if movie franchises, like the Bond movies, were intentionally blending their plots with Christian elements, that such a move would be incredible for spreading The Word; however, it's not likely to happen, so why split hairs over it?
:D Brilliant.
Indeed, I couldn't agree more. That hearkens back to the abomination that is "politcal correctness". You can use The Lord's name in vain all you want, apparently, but use Allah's name, and wow, you've crossed the line. It's pathetic. Why substitute Jesus' name for a curse word? You're right, it's utter blasphemy.
No, not sarcasm at all, @royale65. Your comment was not patronising in the slightest. I don't say a thing if I don't mean it!
Sorry, the last time I looked it was 2013, not 1508.
By all means, let us see the gruesome sights of people getting eaten by sharks and being blown up in decompression chambers with their brains splattering over the glass but don't you dare use the name Jesus or God in a manner which may offend us! The hypocrisy is just astonishing.
Anyway, as a Catholic myself, I find a great number of Bond's actions to be sinful (from the sex to the killing to, yes, taking the Lord's name in vain), but that doesn't really prevent from watching or enjoying the films. I suppose you could say it's inconsistent, but I don't think watching the movies is an endorsement of everything the character does, and there are other things to appreciate in the movies.
Well, I think the only other use of that swear word was by Julian Fellowes as the Minister of Defence in Tomorrow Never Dies (1997), on learning of the massacre of the Devonshire sailors.
No uses of, "My God," or "Good God," or anything like that?
And Desmond Llewellyn, let's not forget. The only question is who decided (in-universe) to have Q dress up like an Orthodox priest and have Bond meet him in a confessional?
Well, Bond says "Thank God you're safe!" to Holly Goodhead in Moonraker when they are below the Moonraker 5.
Fantasy & fantasy.
I'm not having that. That's blasphemy. Compared to religion Bond is 99.999999999% realistic (even including the invisible car). I'm offended.
Coming from you brother, I'll take that as a compliment.
I'm a Christian. I'm a longtime Bond fan. I don't use Jesus's name as a swear word and I do not like it when I hear others do that. Can you live with that, Wizard? So gonna pounce on me now, too? Tell me to go perform some sexual service on Daniel Craig or myself? Two words for you: Grow up.
There is no need for anyone to trash others, denigrate another person's religious faith, in general act like a bigoted asshole, or try to be funny in the snidest and most anti-religious way. You do not believe in Christianity, Wizard; we get that, believe me, we all do. So what? You could easily have made some comments without resorting to the low life words you used. I enjoy many of your posts, Wizard; you can be interesting and articulate. But that side of you that is so eager to slam Christianity, is very ugly indeed.
Please move along now, and take your trash out with you.
Sorry this thread derailed, Beatles. It was interesting and on topic for a while.
I'm certainly not embarrassed but you should be. I mean you've just said it yourself. IT'S A FICTIONAL MOVIE!!!! Yet you're the one getting upset over the use of blasphemy. Sex and violence is OK with you but please don't use Christ in a disparaging fashion. I'm sorry you get so easily offended. If you don't like it don't watch it. No one's forcing you to.
I'm not a practicing Christian but I recognise offensive remarks when I see them and these are unacceptable.
As for the Christian faith, I tend not to be over critical, otherwise how can I justly partake of Christmas celebrations and Easter celebrations, and chose to marry in a church without being deemed a hypocrite?
The fundamental basis of our very lives is built on Christianity, so who are we to criticise it one minute, and then embrace it when it suits us (eg Christmas)?
It seems it is only 'The Word' that is allowed to be shoved down people throats on here.
Feel free to check the other posts in this thread which take the same view as you without the use of crude metaphors. If you feel the need to debate further then do so, but I won't be intimidated by posts like the one above.
@4Ever, my dear, you have echoed my thoughts perfectly. @Wizard, I really do enjoy much of your writing. But sometimes you tend to take the phrase "Does not suffer fools gladly" and turn it into "Does not suffer any disagreement at any time." Snark is not always the most appropriate response to every discussion; I've actually been enjoying much of what has been posted refuting my thoughts on this topic. Reasonable people can always disagree in a reasonable fashion. Unfortunately, the topic of religion is not one that automatically engages the faculty of reason. Still friends, all? :o3
But according to many Christian doctrines, including the catholic one, what brings a man to hell is his state of sin, regardless of the quality of the sin. An unrepentant sinner, whether he is a mass murderer, a mob boss or an adulterer, is condemned. This is what I meant. Whether this is factual or not is irrelevant, I don't believe it is true for a second for the record, but this is stricto sensu what the tenants of the faith imply. I am doomed to hell as an unbeliever and because I commit sins Ifeel no remorse about (because I don't consider them sinful to the least). Bond never ever, as far as we know, express any contrition regarding his sex life. Not that he should, but his moral framework is not strictly Christian and according to many believers he should be doomed to hell not because he is a sinner but because he does not repent.
Some people take their fantasy pretty seriously...
Not at all off topic IMHO. The degree to which "Christianity" has become secularized is very much an important part of the issue. As pointed out earlier (by @Dragonpol I believe) Fleming (and therefore Bond) was probably a secularized (or cultural) Christian; he was raised in a Christian country and as such, certain practices (including but not limited to the celebration of Christmas) were more or less hardwired into him. Whether or not he formally practiced that faith in all its particulars, the foundation of that belief was pretty much inescapable. At weddings, at births and at funerals, and yes, at Christmas and Easter, the trappings of the Christian faith are often there regardless of the nature of one's own personal beliefs. As for the nature of Bond's own religious affiliation: given the intensity of Bond's professed patriotism, I wonder if he might lean towards the Church of England? (That's a joke, son, a joke. Danged smiley button seems to be on the fritz right now...)
@Wiz, please forgive me for editing your post so as to include only those points I intended to respond to.
Yes, you are correct, the wad of money lands in the begging bowl of an unspecified beggar. My apologies for the inaccuracy. I think the record will show that my faulty memory is entirely capable of making similar errors regarding minor details with no ulterior motive in mind. (My own personal favorite of such occurred in my review of DN, referring to the "scorpion" in Bond's bed instead of the correct "tarantula" in same. I assure one and all, no slur on scorpions or boost of tarantulas was ever intended.) I do wish you had been able to reference the error without impugning my intent. Still, thanks for doing your part to encourage the veracity of my postings.
I'm sorry, I don't recognize this "Dawkins" fellow you reference. Please enlighten me.
And finally, as I'm not a Catholic, I don't feel any need to excuse the Catholic Church's error in this regard. I find it quite as reprehensible as you do. I'd like to remind you that I have not at any point advocated for or against any religious position...I have only pointed out what I considered to be a surprising number of religious references in one Bond movie, and asked what my fellow Bond fans thought about them. But to answer your question directly: who is the sinner? All of them. All of US. While you clearly reject the theology you seem familiar enough with its tennets: We are ALL sinners, in one fashion or another. The only issue is what we DO about it.
Very well said as always, @BeatlesSansEarMuffs. Another interesting aspect of this is a person that I personally consider as the second most important figure in the history of James Bond - that of Kingsley Amis. Although he was not a believer he once wrote in What Became of Jane Austen? And Other Questions (1970) that he was very much adverse to taking the Lord's name in vain and that this had been instilled in him from an early age, despite the fact that he was more of a Humanist than a Christian. Some food for thought there; can't posters here respect the religious beliefs of others and not provoke?
Yes, we don't want MI6 Community to end up like Bond and Beyond forums...
I'm not going back to find out who dropped the suggestion and who blew it out of proportion. This isn't me pointing an accusing finger. I'd just love to generally ask to leave religious subtext out of our Bond discussions. We all know the Bond films to be purely secular entertainment so any attempt at squeezing in religious talk will automatically provoke unpleasant reactions.
We're not fascists here at MI6; we don't 'forbid' things to be discussed. We merely encourage some common sense when starting a new thread. Yes, this topic could have been interesting, I'm not blaming this thread's creator; but yes, of course it will in due time produce conflicts. Anyone can figure that out. I often think of things that can be discussed but quickly decide against them, knowing that whilst my intentions may be good, what happens after the opening post is entirely beyond my control.
Trolls enjoy raising the subject of Christianity because they know it'll go wrong. Both Christians and atheists are members of this forum but they - we - get along quite well because we smartly avoid Bond related talk on a biblical canvas. The minute someone does press a similar issue, someone else will be, intended or not, upset and strike back.
Can we discuss religion here at MI6? Of course we can. Can we discuss Bond and Christianity here at MI6? We can. But would it be smart to do so? Absolutely not. The risks are greater than the merits.
Thank you for taking this into consideration.