Does reading Ian Fleming make you a better person or worse?

007InVT

I've been reading a lot of Fleming.

We all know Ian's moral compass needle moved around a bit. Attitudes to women, women drivers, other countries etc etc. When you find yourself agreeing with him, or enjoying his jokes, does leave an impression later or do you file it under 'Pure Fleming' and move on?

I'm curious as to anyone gets into trouble by getting too into the novels in their wider life.

chrisisall

I think if you live for Bond, it's all you read, it's all you watch, you're in as much trouble as Star Wars or Twilight folk. :))

Okay, but seriously, we are who we are, reading Fleming might well make one more interesting, but not 'better' or 'worse'.

DarthDimi

I'm sure it made me a better person in some respects. Looking into the soul of tormented women, delving into the social, political and moral conflicts of the mid 20th century, considering the ethical complications an assassin struggles with... it all helped me in better understanding some of those well-hidden facets of human nature.

On the other hand, I might have bred some personal arrogance out of Fleming's writings. I tend to apply said arrogance too, sometimes quoting almost word-for-word from the novels, which I do find infinitely quotable for that matter. In my profession, arrogance isn't necessarily a good thing so I must watch that Flemingian mouth sometimes. ;-)

saunders

Interesting question @007InVT, I started reading Fleming at 11 and his descriptive prose of the minute detail certainly encouraged me to smoke and drink to excess (though at nearly 40 I no longer do either), when I'm speeding in my car I'm inevitably imagining myself as Fleming's Bond driving it hard and well and with a sensual pleasure (even if it is only a Peugeot 206), I did take up an appreciation of beautiful, athletic, strong girls with thrusting breasts and sinful mouths (even down to admiring the ones with behinds almost as firm and rounded as a boys...though I don't really want to talk about that!). Though I've never got into gambling, insulting Bulgarians or killing people in cold blood I'm sure it's only a matter of time...
Would I of found these things without Fleming? Well yes I probably would, but Fleming helped to educate me by adding that luxurious gloss to these rather mundane basic instincts and therefore hopefully making me a slightly more interesting, if not exactly better person.

Dragonpol

I try to life a basically clean life, but I love my Fleming. So no, it has not made me a worse person. It has given me an interest in the Britain of the 1950s and 1960s though, for sure. I don't drink, smoke or gamble. What do you do, Dragonpol?

007InVT

saunders wrote:

Interesting question @007InVT, I started reading Fleming at 11 and his descriptive prose of the minute detail certainly encouraged me to smoke and drink to excess (though at nearly 40 I no longer do either), when I'm speeding in my car I'm inevitably imagining myself as Fleming's Bond driving it hard and well and with a sensual pleasure (even if it is only a Peugeot 206), I did take up an appreciation of beautiful, athletic, strong girls with thrusting breasts and sinful mouths (even down to admiring the ones with behinds almost as firm and rounded as a boys...though I don't really want to talk about that!). Though I've never got into gambling, insulting Bulgarians or killing people in cold blood I'm sure it's only a matter of time...
Would I of found these things without Fleming? Well yes I probably would, but Fleming helped to educate me by adding that luxurious gloss to these rather mundane basic instincts and therefore hopefully making me a slightly more interesting, if not exactly better person.

Well put. My penchant for good Scotch and cocktails has been amplified I think and I hope my driving isn't too bad.

Quoting Fleming can get you into trouble with significant others, especially in this day and age but I always think there was a touch of irony in the writing.

I am English by nationality although now live in Vermont (FYEO!) but I do have a great sense of my British heritage by being absorbed in the Bond world. There is a lot to be proud of. My Grandfathers were in WW2, one owned a Battleship grey Bentley even!

I appreciate the finer things in life without being pretentious but I like nice clothes, a good razor, cigar etc, so it's fun to just be a man once in a while.

I gamble too, play Poker and I suppose get a lot out of the Casino scenes, which Fleming goes into so much detail.

Perhaps Bond's fancy-free lifestyle is a bit intoxicating sometimes and will always beat out the hum-drum of everyday life. That's the cross to bear of not being a double-0 agent.

Ludovico

Literature is not meant to be moral. I am not a better person after reading Fleming, the same way I am not a worse person after reading Sade (albeit I have not read Sade nearly as much).

timmer

I think anyone is much better for the experience of reading Fleming. Fleming was a good egg. His Bond fought the good fight, and Fleming himself offered up honest and interesting observations on the world around him. Refreshing as hell. His writing resonates to this day. The fact that he was immune to anything remotely resembling political correctness, gives his writing a distinct aura of authenticity. Only when people try to honestly express themselves does one really benefit or even learn or understand, from listening to them.
Fleming will always be my favourite writer! It's only his books and Conan Doyle's that I will continue to re-read until departing this mortal coil - on the fiction side at least. There are other worthy writers of course, but those are the two I have latched on to.

TheWizardOfIce

saunders wrote:

gambling, insulting Bulgarians or killing people in cold blood I'm sure it's only a matter of time...

Done those too (apart from the killing) and not just Bulgarians.

Not sure reading Fleming makes you a better person or not but certainly trying to live the Bondian lifestyle makes life more fun. Eating caviar and drinking champagne with a beautfiful woman (even if it is the missus not a Russian spy with orders to kill you), driving recklessly fast on a mountain road and skiing down a mountain with the OHMSS theme on the Ipod are lifes great experiences.

Dragonpol wrote:

I don't drink, smoke or gamble. What do you do, Dragonpol?

You read NSF. Every man has his passion.

Ludovico

timmer wrote:

I think anyone is much better for the experience of reading Fleming. Fleming was a good egg. His Bond fought the good fight, and Fleming himself offered up honest and interesting observations on the world around him. Refreshing as hell. His writing resonates to this day. The fact that he was immune to anything remotely resembling political correctness, gives his writing a distinct aura of authenticity. Only when people try to honestly express themselves does one really benefit or even learn or understand, from listening to them.
Fleming will always be my favourite writer! It's only his books and Conan Doyle's that I will continue to re-read until departing this mortal coil - on the fiction side at least. There are other worthy writers of course, but those are the two I have latched on to.

Funny, I was thinking about a thread comparing Sherlock Holmes and James Bond and the influence Doyle may have had on Fleming. I might do it tonight after work.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

timmer wrote:

I think anyone is much better for the experience of reading Fleming. Fleming was a good egg. His Bond fought the good fight, and Fleming himself offered up honest and interesting observations on the world around him. Refreshing as hell. His writing resonates to this day. The fact that he was immune to anything remotely resembling political correctness, gives his writing a distinct aura of authenticity. Only when people try to honestly express themselves does one really benefit or even learn or understand, from listening to them.
Fleming will always be my favourite writer! It's only his books and Conan Doyle's that I will continue to re-read until departing this mortal coil - on the fiction side at least. There are other worthy writers of course, but those are the two I have latched on to.

Funny, I was thinking about a thread comparing Sherlock Holmes and James Bond and the influence Doyle may have had on Fleming. I might do it tonight after work.

Well I look forward to readfing it, kind sir.

007InVT

Great comments.

I must say, I love the erudite debate found in this Literary 007 category in contrast to the noise of some of the other categories.

SaintMark

reading makes you a better person.

DarthDimi

SaintMark wrote:

reading makes you a better person.

Indeed, @SaintMark. Had certain groups been reading books instead of burn them, Europe might have been saved a great deal of trouble some 70 - 80 years ago...

Samuel001

Better. I actually became a far better writer during my time at school because of it.

Ludovico

DarthDimi wrote:

SaintMark wrote:

reading makes you a better person.

Indeed, @SaintMark. Had certain groups been reading books instead of burn them, Europe might have been saved a great deal of trouble some 70 - 80 years ago...

It would be the case now too. Burning books is obscurantist, cowardly, vile and maybe the most violent action one can do against something that is non living.

Dragonpol

007InVT wrote:

Great comments.

I must say, I love the erudite debate found in this Literary 007 category in contrast to the noise of some of the other categories.

Yes, you will find much educated debate here on MI6.

DarthDimi

Ludovico wrote:

DarthDimi wrote:

SaintMark wrote:

reading makes you a better person.

Indeed, @SaintMark. Had certain groups been reading books instead of burn them, Europe might have been saved a great deal of trouble some 70 - 80 years ago...

It would be the case now too. Burning books is obscurantist, cowardly, vile and maybe the most violent action one can do against something that is non living.

I can throw away a lot but I couldn't possibly throw away a book, let alone burn it. There's something about a book that I respect, cherish even, though it's hard to put into words. But I want the physical object, not so much a digital copy (they have their merits too though), nor an old fashioned Xerox copy. I want to feel and smell the paper, touch the back, feel the smooth surface, pinch the pages I've already read and also the pages I have yet to read. I want to turn it around and gently kiss the cover when I've read it. Lastly, I want to see the sidecover when I store the books on my shelve.

FYI, The Ninth Gate is a film I deeply, thoroughly enjoy. ;-)

Dragonpol

DarthDimi wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

DarthDimi wrote:

SaintMark wrote:

reading makes you a better person.

Indeed, @SaintMark. Had certain groups been reading books instead of burn them, Europe might have been saved a great deal of trouble some 70 - 80 years ago...

It would be the case now too. Burning books is obscurantist, cowardly, vile and maybe the most violent action one can do against something that is non living.

I can throw away a lot but I couldn't possibly throw away a book, let alone burn it. There's something about a book that I respect, cherish even, though it's hard to put into words. But I want the physical object, not so much a digital copy (they have their merits too though), nor an old fashioned Xerox copy. I want to feel and smell the paper, touch the back, feel the smooth surface, pinch the pages I've already read and also the pages I have yet to read. I want to turn it around and gently kiss the cover when I've read it. Lastly, I want to see the sidecover when I store the books on my shelve.

FYI, The Ninth Gate is a film I deeply, thoroughly enjoy. ;-)

You share my addiction to buying, reading and caring for books, then, DD.

0013

Well I started to drink and smoke before reading Fleming. But certainly it gave me some interest in gambling. In the books it's presented with such glamour and enjoyment that motivates to try. The problem is that I'm too much risk averse that I haven't gamble on interesting games in casinos, only in the slot machines.

Dragonpol

Slot machines - of which Fleming was highly critical in DAF the novel, as I intend to explain in a forthcoming blog article on the subject.

CommanderRoss

Does reading Fleming make me better or worse? Well, indeed, reading makes you better as long as you don't get obsessed by the text's content. As with Sun Zu's 'the art of war' or Machiavelli's 'Il Prince' you take from them what's usefull, you learn to think in different ways, even though some people may condemn reading those. I'd love to read 'Mein Kampf' as well, but copies in Dutch are hard to come by and tbh that's really a book that'll get you judged.

Anyway, back to Fleming. I've always loved travelling, I've always been a decent drinker, a fan of lovely ladies and the finer things in life. But reading Fleming made me not feel alone in those, and made me think my actions over better. Fleming did learn me to control my gambling better. Thank you Ian. Your choice of Champagne could've been better though...

I haven't insulted Bulgarians, but I guess Hungarians count as well? ;-)

SirHenryLeeChaChing

DarthDimi wrote:

SaintMark wrote:

reading makes you a better person.

Indeed, @SaintMark. Had certain groups been reading books instead of burn them, Europe might have been saved a great deal of trouble some 70 - 80 years ago...

Double indeed to both of you. As far as Fleming, I would conjecture that reading Fleming might make one a more knowledgeable Bond fan, but nothing more. Fleming's smoking, drinking, and womanizing may have influenced me subconsciously, but I'd like to think being a rock musician had a lot more to do with it :D

myworldisenough

It's fiction so doesn't make me a better or worst person. I enjoy the stories and the excitement rather than caring too much about his observations and opinions. Some are very relevant and agreeable but others not so much. Remember some of his opinions seem to be that of another era. The books were written a very very long time ago and some stuff is relevant to me but other stuff not.

SaintMark

SirHenryLeeChaChing wrote:

DarthDimi wrote:

SaintMark wrote:

reading makes you a better person.

Indeed, @SaintMark. Had certain groups been reading books instead of burn them, Europe might have been saved a great deal of trouble some 70 - 80 years ago...

Double indeed to both of you. As far as Fleming, I would conjecture that reading Fleming might make one a more knowledgeable Bond fan, but nothing more. Fleming's smoking, drinking, and womanizing may have influenced me subconsciously, but I'd like to think being a rock musician had a lot more to do with it :D

Jeez, I started to smoke because this girl I fallen for did so. I drank alcohol because it got offered to me and some of it I enjoyed and some of it not. Ian Fleming had nothing to do with me drinking, smoking or womanising (the latter did just happen and I found it rather enjoyable).

hullcityfan

I've only read one which was Dr. No and it changed me sort of because it made me read more and while we're on the reading subject is it getting too confusing having different authors writing James Bond?

Dragonpol

hullcityfan wrote:

I've only read one which was Dr. No and it changed me sort of because it made me read more and while we're on the reading subject is it getting too confusing having different authors writing James Bond?

No, not at all. It's all part of that complex yet inexact science called Bondology. I, for one, love it.

Perdogg

I think it is unfair to Fleming that he has gotten this reputation that people have to feel guilty or ashamed to read his books.. Some of it has been exacerbated by the movies with such characters as Dr Goodhead and Bibi Dahl. I never her any one criticize or hold authors such as Stephen King for worse.

Stephen King's The Running Man uses the n-word and black dialect more often and his graphic sex and violence in The Stand is given a pass.

I

007InVT

Fleming used this word a lot in Thunderball, referring to geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggerhead

Obviously, someone reading it today could be offended, but Fleming had no idea.

The passage in The Spy Who Loved Me about a woman 'being taken' is a bit dicey to read too.

Otherwise, he was a product of his time for better or worse.

Dragonpol

007InVT wrote:

Fleming used this word a lot in Thunderball, referring to geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggerhead

Obviously, someone reading it today could be offended, but Fleming had no idea.

The passage in The Spy Who Loved Me about a woman 'being taken' is a bit dicey to read too.

Otherwise, he was a product of his time for better or worse.

On niggerheads, like Golly Wog dolls, I think that was just what they were called back then - very dated, yes, racist, no, not really. That's where the n-word itself is used, of course. And yes, Golly Wog dolls are a racist slur, just before someone berates me on that point.

Bradford4

There is a danger to building yourself around a fictional charracter. Let yourself define who YOU are. YOU are special and the only one like you (i am speakig to all MI6 members). Those who take books like James Bond, or The Turner Diaries can be a danger. James Bond can be a bad influence. Drinking. Womanizer. Murder. These are not good things to emulate (but are sure fun to watch on the big screen hehehe)