London...again. Sick people killing good people on the streets of the UK.

2

Comments

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Just on another tack for a minute:

    Having had the misfortune to watch the whole thing live on CCTV at work (thankfully we were not made aware until after the murder and didn't see that) I was very surprised with the armed police's tactics.

    I saw them shoot the second suspect a couple of times and he fell backwards but was still sitting up and could easily have pulled out another weapon or detonated a suicide vest.

    I understood there was no so such thing as aiming to wound and in such situations police are instructed to shoot at the core areas until the suspect stays down?

    I'm certain if this had happened in America both would be dead now and as someone who doesn't want the police to be risking their lives unnecessarily I wonder if, in our more squeamish society when it comes to police shooting people, our police are under instructions not to kill. If so this is worrying as it didn't seem to me the police could be sure the threat had been neautralised with the methods they employed on the day.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Just on another tack for a minute:

    Having had the misfortune to watch the whole thing live on CCTV at work (thankfully we were not made aware until after the murder and didn't see that) I was very surprised with the armed police's tactics.

    I saw them shoot the second suspect a couple of times and he fell backwards but was still sitting up and could easily have pulled out another weapon or detonated a suicide vest.

    I understood there was no so such thing as aiming to wound and in such situations police are instructed to shoot at the core areas until the suspect stays down?

    I'm certain if this had happened in America both would be dead now and as someone who doesn't want the police to be risking their lives unnecessarily I wonder if, in our more squeamish society when it comes to police shooting people, our police are under instructions not to kill. If so this is worrying as it didn't seem to me the police could be sure the threat had been neautralised with the methods they employed on the day.

    Interesting points, Ice. Are you from that area yourself?
  • Posts: 7,653
    I believe the police did alright in wounding the suspects instead of killing them. They get to find out what these morons ideas were which is much more valuable than having them dead.

    After the disaster with the Brazelian student with the backpack that got shot deadly in the head in a metro I think they had a big rethink of shooting at people. Especially since the armed response teams in the UK are higly trained for their job, they are not the average copper. Some restrain could be trained into them.
  • Bradford4Bradford4 Banned
    Posts: 152
    Mods, lets have some consistency for Christ's sake. Id prefer if all discussions were allowed but religious discussions are never allowed here and have always been closed.. So to paraphrase Ronald Reaggen, our great paragon of conservative power,

    Mister Moderators,
    TEAR DOWN THIS THREAD!!!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    SaintMark wrote:
    I believe the police did alright in wounding the suspects instead of killing them. They get to find out what these morons ideas were which is much more valuable than having them dead.

    After the disaster with the Brazelian student with the backpack that got shot deadly in the head in a metro I think they had a big rethink of shooting at people. Especially since the armed response teams in the UK are higly trained for their job, they are not the average copper. Some restrain could be trained into them.

    Agreed. I think we're lucky to have much less trigger-happy police here in the UK as opposed to the US.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Bradford4 wrote:
    Mods, lets have some consistency for Christ's sake. Id prefer if all discussions were allowed but religious discussions are never allowed here and have always been closed.. So to paraphrase Ronald Reaggen, our great paragon of conservative power,

    Mister Moderators,
    TEAR DOWN THIS THREAD!!!

    I think the thread must remain open. I didn't even mention religion, nor have most people in this thread if you care to reads it over again.
  • Bradford4Bradford4 Banned
    Posts: 152
    I realize that. But Brady, mentioned the inflammatory statement that religions are the cause of untold deaths.. And that statement has been left where it is. To the communitys credit. But when there is a spark there is always a chance of a fire. Lets keep it gentle here.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2013 Posts: 18,270
    Bradford4 wrote:
    I realize that. But Brady, mentioned the inflammatory statement that religions are the cause of untold deaths.. And that statement has been left where it is. To the communitys credit. But when there is a spark there is always a chance of a fire. Lets keep it gentle here.

    I'm all for keeping it gentle. I think I did above. That religion statement should not have been made - it's both irrelevant to this thread discussion and factually wrong. But we as a community here on MI6 predictably rose above it, you see.

  • Posts: 15,116
    I understood there was no so such thing as aiming to wound and in such situations police are instructed to shoot at the core areas until the suspect stays down?
    I don't know how it works in the UK but from what I understood when a police uses firearm he shoots to kill, i.e. to put an end to a lethal menace. He must use his weapon if and ONLY if someone represents a clear and present lethal danger to him or the people around him.
    Bradford4 wrote:
    I realize that. But Brady, mentioned the inflammatory statement that religions are the cause of untold deaths.. And that statement has been left where it is. To the communitys credit. But when there is a spark there is always a chance of a fire. Lets keep it gentle here.

    In this particular cases, the assassins did say themselves that their crimes were religiously motivated, an act of devotion, so religion will be talked about.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 7,653
    Bradford4 wrote:
    Mods, lets have some consistency for Christ's sake. Id prefer if all discussions were allowed but religious discussions are never allowed here and have always been closed.. So to paraphrase Ronald Reaggen, our great paragon of conservative power,

    Mister Moderators,
    TEAR DOWN THIS THREAD!!!

    You Sir are crying wolf way too early. Let this thread run its course if need be it can always be closed but so far most discussions in this thread have been civil and insightfull, your contribution excepted. ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    SaintMark wrote:
    Bradford4 wrote:
    Mods, lets have some consistency for Christ's sake. Id prefer if all discussions were allowed but religious discussions are never allowed here and have always been closed.. So to paraphrase Ronald Reaggen, our great paragon of conservative power,

    Mister Moderators,
    TEAR DOWN THIS THREAD!!!

    You Sir are crying wolf way too early. Let this thread run its course if need be it can always be closed but so far most discussions in this thread have been civil and insightfull, your controbution excepted. ;)

    Indeed - we conduct ourselves much more civilly here on MI6 Community.
  • Posts: 2,782
    Just watched Question Time...the EDL were mentioned and if you look on twitter feed they are going to use this awful crime for their own political ( I use that term with contempt with these guys) to divide and conquer. It's a bank holiday here and I fear for the weekend....something is going to kick off. I pray for rain....
  • Bradford4Bradford4 Banned
    Posts: 152
    Be safe britain, the lovely home of James Bond. The lord Jesus Christ be with you, I say in all respect.
  • DiscoVolanteDiscoVolante Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts: 1,347
    Yes I'll let this remain open as long as religious battles are avoided.

    Such a terrible act of lunacy, RIP.
  • I think it's a pretty simple fix and one that shouldn't be blamed on the religion itself. Most adherents of the monotheistic religions are content to live and let live. The root of the problem, as I see it and argue in various local interfaith meetings where I represent my religion, exists in various versions of the Bible and Koran that promote violence. If these inflammatory passages were to be eliminated, for example those in the King James Bible which promote murder, these literalists who cling to every word as if God or Allah said it just the other day would have less reason to act on their irrational impulses.

    Just the other day here in Philadelphia, a 7 month old boy died because his devoutly religious parents refused to seek medical attention for him. This was the second child they lost because their crackpot preacher told them only prayer is an acceptable cure, and medicine is not. Rightfully, they will now be charged with murder. People in Mexico and points south are murdered every year in the name of religion because King James, not the original Testaments, said to. And then there's the Wahhabi Muslims whose radical views this latest nut job obviously ascribed to. This problem is not going to go away until the more moderate people in these religions step up and police those who call themselves the same.



  • Posts: 1,708
    Just a coincidence it happened in London , I agree with the guy (in a news article) who said that there will be copycat attacks......they should just stop giving them attention or barely mention it at all in the media as it will only trigger other would be attackers.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 4,622
    Ludovico wrote:
    I understood there was no so such thing as aiming to wound and in such situations police are instructed to shoot at the core areas until the suspect stays down?
    I don't know how it works in the UK but from what I understood when a police uses firearm he shoots to kill, i.e. to put an end to a lethal menace. He must use his weapon if and ONLY if someone represents a clear and present lethal danger to him or the people around him.
    That's pretty much it, although the cop isn't necessarily shooting to kill, rather he's shooting to stop or neutralize the threat. But they never shoot to not kill. Shooting to wound is a myth. Wizard summed it up too.
    Peace officers, whether they be cops, bank guards etc, are all trained to shoot at the centre of mass, which is the chest. They are trying to stop. If the target dies, so be it. The drawing of the gun is in response to a lethal threat. The death of the target is always an allowable outcome if the gun is indeed fired. That's how all peace officers are trained, and it makes perfect sense. Even if the target is wearing a vest, a shot will still put him down. If he gets up, shoot him again. Eventually he will stay down.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    timmer wrote:
    the cop isn't necessarily shooting to kill, rather he's shooting to stop or neutralize the threat. But they never shoot to not kill. Shooting to wound is a myth. Wizard summed it up too.
    Peace officers, whether they be cops, bank guards etc, are all trained to shoot at the centre of mass, which is the chest. They are trying to stop. If the target dies, so be it. The drawing of the gun is in response to a lethal threat. The death of the target is always an allowable outcome if the gun is indeed fired. That's how all peace officers are trained, and it makes perfect sense.
    If one were to spend ALL their free time at the range becoming expert marksmen then 'shooting-to-wound' might be an option, but most people in the law enforcement field have other real life intrusions, and nailing the perp at the center of body mass is the clearest choice.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Interesting points, Ice. Are you from that area yourself?

    I live about 2 miles away. Whenever I've driven through it seems not too bad. Never thought it was a particularly dodgy an area. In terms of stabbings and shootings we generally see more reported in Tottenham and Peckham. On a friday or saturday night in Tottenham you will get a murder every other week at least, guaranteed.
    timmer wrote:
    Peace officers, whether they be cops, bank guards etc, are all trained to shoot at the centre of mass, which is the chest. They are trying to stop. If the target dies, so be it. The drawing of the gun is in response to a lethal threat. The death of the target is always an allowable outcome if the gun is indeed fired. That's how all peace officers are trained, and it makes perfect sense. Even if the target is wearing a vest, a shot will still put him down. If he gets up, shoot him again. Eventually he will stay down.

    Well this guy didnt stay down. He sat up again but instead of finishing him off they just piled on instead. Sorry but I'm not taking the risk of getting that close to him while hes still conscious and moving and I dont think the police should be. The other one was down and very motionless (suprised he survived actually as he didnt look at all good) and thats how it should be before you start approaching them.

    Dragonpol wrote:
    Bradford4 wrote:
    I realize that. But Brady, mentioned the inflammatory statement that religions are the cause of untold deaths.

    That religion statement should not have been made - it's both irrelevant to this thread discussion and factually wrong.

    I'm not wanting to inflame things but also not about to be a religion appeaser. There is an element of religion to this atrocity and sweeping that under the carpet because we dont want to offend helps no one.

    And I would think you of all people Dragonpol would realise that the statement made about religion causing untold deaths is a very long way from being factually wrong.

    By all means call for calm and tolerance but lets not obfuscate that by ignoring what is documented historical fact.
  • Posts: 2,782
    Or indeed what happened in Birmingham only two weeks ago....EDL responsible? What incited this nutter or what doctrine did he follow to do this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police


    Where's the national news coverage, where's the support and where's the culprit? He was murdered on the same day the Pakistani sex gang were convicted...I feel a wave of hate welling up in the UK.

    The riots we had in London a few years ago are only just over the horizon if this is not addressed soon. The Summer of Sam is not too far away.

    We need order in this society and that starts at home...discipline and respect have gone out the window and we are bringing up our children like pets. Feeding them, buying them gifts, indulging them in ever whim...

    We are bringing up a society of celeb awed money driven shallow wannabes.

    Thank god I can afford to put my little one into private education, the state has lost the plot.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Sorry @forgotmyusername but that Guardian article you supplied a link for clearly states: Birmingham murder may have been racially motivated, say police. There's no evidence to back your claims that he might have been a member of the EDL other than the attacker was white. For all we know it could have been a violent robbery. As @TheWizardOfIce says "On a friday or saturday night in Tottenham you will get a murder every other week at least, guaranteed." I'm afraid stabbings and shootings, whether the victim is white, black or brown, are now so common place in modern Britain we hardly notice when it happens anymore.
  • Posts: 4,622

    Well this guy didnt stay down. He sat up again but instead of finishing him off they just piled on instead. Sorry but I'm not taking the risk of getting that close to him while hes still conscious and moving and I dont think the police should be. The other one was down and very motionless (suprised he survived actually as he didnt look at all good) and thats how it should be before you start approaching them.
    Agreed, maybe the police did move in too soon. I don't know, maybe they figured he was "down enough."
    I only mentioned the bit about the vest to underscore that cops, even when facing a vested-target, still will shoot at the centre of mass, rather than try a difficult head-shot, as they are not trying to kill the guy, they are simply trying to stop the target, so blasting away at a vested target, should achieve the goal of bringing him down too.

  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I always find hugely amusing that a country at one time was a major power because it went round the rest of the world causing all sorts of atrocities and claiming other countries for itself and then bringing other nationalities back to use as slaves as the gall to complain about immigration.


  • edited May 2013 Posts: 12,837
    The EDL are idiots.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 101
    Shardlake wrote:
    I always find hugely amusing that a country at one time was a major power because it went round the rest of the world causing all sorts of atrocities and claiming other countries for itself and then bringing other nationalities back to use as slaves as the gall to complain about immigration.


    Precisely.
    Lots of short-sighted racism from the usual gaggle of Tory brats that degrade MI6 and society as a whole.
    Most violent crimes are committed by men. Maybe we should imprison or detain all men. It would be more effective than targeting those of another race. Oh wait, you would all object to that because it would affect YOUR precious liberties. The usual Tory idiocy. To hell with everyone else, I have mine.
    And the killers are not cowards. They stood up for what they did and stood their ground and said their piece and waited for the consequences.
    The cowards are the ones who sit behind their computers and POST about how tough and outraged they are. Probably using mummy and daddy's internet connection, too.
    Take a look in the mirror.

    Mod edit: Never contributing something positive to the forum; always complaining, nagging, insulting, upsetting... Check your PM's.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited May 2013 Posts: 9,117
    The EDL are idiots.

    =D> Brilliant. And where did you find that piece of searing political insight? The Guardian Editorial?

    The EDL and indeed the BNP are legal groups and have every right to voice their opinion.

    I wonder how long it would take for me to be booted off this site and for the police to come round if I had made the comment above but substituting 'EDL' for 'muslims'?

    Painting people who have legitimate concerns over this situation as mere lunatic racists rather than opening up a debate will only fuel the fire of resentment that has already built up.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Should've worded that post better but I was in a rush. When I said EDL, I'm talking about their supporters who think "revenge attacks" on Mosques are the answer.

    I think we all have legitimate concerns over this but more violence isn't going to help solve anything.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Should've worded that post better but I was in a rush. When I said EDL, I'm talking about their supporters who think "revenge attacks" on Mosques are the answer.

    I think we all have legitimate concerns over this but more violence isn't going to help solve anything.

    Who here suggested the violence is ever the answer, pray tell?!

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2013 Posts: 18,270
    Shardlake wrote:
    I always find hugely amusing that a country at one time was a major power because it went round the rest of the world causing all sorts of atrocities and claiming other countries for itself and then bringing other nationalities back to use as slaves as the gall to complain about immigration.


    Precisely.
    Lots of short-sighted racism from the usual gaggle of Tory brats that degrade MI6 and society as a whole.
    Most violent crimes are committed by men. Maybe we should imprison or detain all men. It would be more effective than targeting those of another race. Oh wait, you would all object to that because it would affect YOUR precious liberties. The usual Tory idiocy. To hell with everyone else, I have mine.
    And the killers are not cowards. They stood up for what they did and stood their ground and said their piece and waited for the consequences.
    The cowards are the ones who sit behind their computers and POST about how tough and outraged they are. Probably using mummy and daddy's internet connection, too.
    Take a look in the mirror.

    Mod edit: Never contributing something positive to the forum; always complaining, nagging, insulting, upsetting... Check your PM's.

    Yes, the Daily Mirror has been you upbringing, I'd guess. Look in your own cracked mirror. Who invented the One Nation, though, ask yourself that. No, Ed Milliband (or Socialist Red Ed Firebrand) is not the answer, but then the Left only see the Right in black and white - "fascists" and "Nazis", "White Supremacists" "Thatcherites" all of them. There are many shades of blue in the UK, so don't dare taint us with the cloven hoof of fascism or uber-right Toryism, my friend. And the internet connection I pay for by the sweat of my brow, my friend. Father's been dead ten years. I'm a conservative working class gentleman but there was no silver cutlery on my person at birth. Shock value to the Labour supporter.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Should've worded that post better but I was in a rush. When I said EDL, I'm talking about their supporters who think "revenge attacks" on Mosques are the answer.

    I think we all have legitimate concerns over this but more violence isn't going to help solve anything.

    Who here suggested the violence is ever the answer, pray tell?!

    Nobody on here, I was talking about the EDL supporters who have been attacking Mosques.
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