Heroes like James Bond, Batman, Remo Williams & Superman- are they Left or Right politically?

chrisisall

I see them as a neutral group operating for the greater good, not bound by the fantasies of Left (we can all live in harmony if we just try hard, accept aberrant cultural & religious nonsense & pay for it too) or the fantasies of the Right (we can all live in harmony if we just take responsibility for that which we cannot control & let the benevolent corporations guide into a better future for mankind) in a world that simplistically paints all socio/economic/geopolitical problem remedies in black and white.
These, and MANY other heroes can be seen as tools of either side, yet I REJECT that idea in favour of the concept of individuality, and the ability of addressing each issue (as well as supervillain) as a particular problem to be worked out in the best way WITHOUT a pre-described agenda to mindlessly follow through on.

Thoughts?

Perdogg

I am not really sure if are talking political concepts or moral concepts. I definitely think that the Fleming Bond novels and the Fleming movies until the Brosnan age did see the world in terms of Black and white. Fleming was always clear about this, and Bond at times struggled with it.

In Fact, I have been a critic of the Craig Bond era for this lack of Manichaeism. In order to work for the greater good, one must first define what the greater good is.


I am not sure you are talking about in the last paragraph.

chrisisall

Perdogg wrote:

I am not sure you are talking about in the last paragraph.

I'm talking about using the correct method to cure an ill, as in not taking out a whole village to kill one terrorist, nor ignoring a threat because human shields are employed.
If the greater good is not inextricably tied to the individual good, then there can BE no heroes IMO.

timmer

I don't look at these heroes as political, but many of them are patriots. Superman fights for "truth justice and the American way". Bond is a fierce defender of king and country. Remo Williams is an American patriot. Not sure how I'd define Batman. He's not as overtly patriotic as Superman ( although I am happy to be corrected on this point).
I think its safe to say that these four heroes in particular do fight for freedom and justice. They are not communists.

chrisisall

timmer wrote:

but many of them are patriots.
They are not communists.

This is the black & white mindset I'm addressing here; Communists can be Patriots, and Patriots can be Communists.

Would Batman condone Monsanto's GMO food take-over?
Would Superman condemn Bin Laden's take-down?

Either way, Bond will drink martinis & Remo will eat rice.
:))

timmer

chrisisall wrote:

Either way, Bond will drink martinis & Remo will eat rice.
:))

These things will always be true! :)

chrisisall

timmer wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

Either way, Bond will drink martinis & Remo will eat rice.
:))

These things will always be true! :)

:)) Yes!

Ludovico

I think it depends of which hero. I think Superman is at least slightly left leaning, but Batman slightly right leaning (but Bruce Wayne I am not sure). And right and left on the political spectrum are somewhat different from country to country.A conservative British is very likely a monarchist, which is obviously not the case everywhere.

Sir_James_Moloney

The Bond of the novels is certainly right-wing. He's a patriot, a monarchist, an imperialist and an individualist; he's against gender equality, believes that homosexuals are "pansies" who have their "hormones mixed up" and disagrees with the welfare state. Oh, and he calls Mr Big "that damned ni**er." It would be fairly hard to make an argument that he's left-wing or "neutral."

chrisisall

Sir_James_Moloney wrote:

It would be fairly hard to make an argument that he's left-wing or "neutral."

But... he believes in pre-marital sex, adultery, and would have sexual relations outside of his race... hardly right wing traits, right?
:))

JawsIsAlive

Didn't Fleming say that Bond was supposed to be generally apolitical but what politics he had would be left of centre?

Dragonpol

JawsIsAlive wrote:

Didn't Fleming say that Bond was supposed to be generally apolitical but what politics he had would be left of centre?

He did indeed, in several interviews I've read of him.

Ludovico

Dragonpol wrote:

JawsIsAlive wrote:

Didn't Fleming say that Bond was supposed to be generally apolitical but what politics he had would be left of centre?

He did indeed, in several interviews I've read of him.

I think it makes sense. Being a civil servant, Bond must have some positive vision of the state, after all he works for it. Even his monarchism could be seen as somewhat statist. And like Chrisisall said, he is more "liberal" on many aspects of his life: he has no problems with premarital sex, extramarital sex, interracial relationships. As for his homophobia, at the time he was written, people from the left to the right were homophobic, it was hardly a political statement to be.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

JawsIsAlive wrote:

Didn't Fleming say that Bond was supposed to be generally apolitical but what politics he had would be left of centre?

He did indeed, in several interviews I've read of him.

I think it makes sense. Being a civil servant, Bond must have some positive vision of the state, after all he works for it. Even his monarchism could be seen as somewhat statist. And like Chrisisall said, he is more "liberal" on many aspects of his life: he has no problems with premarital sex, extramarital sex, interracial relationships. As for his homophobia, at the time he was written, people from the left to the right were homophobic, it was hardly a political statement to be.

I think that a large part of it came from the fear of what they did not understand. It wasn't called homophobia then, it was called holding normal Christian views of how life should be. As you do say, Bond was liberal on many of the vices of modern life - he also liked and indeed visited prostitutes for heaven's sake! Like his Scots creator Fleming, though, James Bond also had a very noticeable puritanical streak, too. It's easy to forget that with the overarching success of the film versions.

Sir_James_Moloney

Ludovico wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

JawsIsAlive wrote:

Didn't Fleming say that Bond was supposed to be generally apolitical but what politics he had would be left of centre?

He did indeed, in several interviews I've read of him.

I think it makes sense. Being a civil servant, Bond must have some positive vision of the state, after all he works for it. Even his monarchism could be seen as somewhat statist. And like Chrisisall said, he is more "liberal" on many aspects of his life: he has no problems with premarital sex, extramarital sex, interracial relationships. As for his homophobia, at the time he was written, people from the left to the right were homophobic, it was hardly a political statement to be.

@chrisisall, @Ludovico and @Dragonpol, I understand your points of view and accept that it's possible to be right-wing in some respects and left-wing in others (seems increasingly popular for wealthy young men and women to describe themselves as 'fiscally conservative and socially liberal', for example) but I think there's some confusion here about the definition of right-left politics.

Premarital sex and extra marital sex don't really have anything to do with politics at all. There are scores of right-wing politicians we could all name who have had extra-marital affairs. I daresay it would be hard to name more than a handful of right-wing politicians who haven't had premarital sex. Likewise, Silvio Berlusconi is well known for his use of "bunga bunga girls" (i.e. prostitutes) and he's about as rightwing as mainstream politicians come. None of this makes any of them left-wing.

I think the idea that Bond's monarchism could be construed as left-wing is nonsensical. Again, that's not to say it's not compatible with left wing politics (I'm left wing but also a monarchist.) The classic definitions of right-left is that the right-wing believes in the politics of order (conservatism) whilst the left-wing believes in the politics of progress (liberalism). Bond is pretty clearly a conservative in almost every respect. I'd really struggle to pick a single incident from the novels where he could be seen as displaying left-wing sympathies.

I really think Bond's about as right-wing a hero as you'll find.

I understand your points about homophobia being commonplace in the 50s but, again, Bond's beliefs are clearly not left-wing (even if they are normal for the period.) It was probably a mistake to bring that up though because it wasn't really a political issue at the time.

Dragonpol

Sir_James_Moloney wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

JawsIsAlive wrote:

Didn't Fleming say that Bond was supposed to be generally apolitical but what politics he had would be left of centre?

He did indeed, in several interviews I've read of him.

I think it makes sense. Being a civil servant, Bond must have some positive vision of the state, after all he works for it. Even his monarchism could be seen as somewhat statist. And like Chrisisall said, he is more "liberal" on many aspects of his life: he has no problems with premarital sex, extramarital sex, interracial relationships. As for his homophobia, at the time he was written, people from the left to the right were homophobic, it was hardly a political statement to be.

@chrisisall, @Ludovico and @Dragonpol, I understand your points of view and accept that it's possible to be right-wing in some respects and left-wing in others (seems increasingly popular for wealthy young men and women to describe themselves as 'fiscally conservative and socially liberal', for example) but I think there's some confusion here about the definition of right-left politics.

Premarital sex and extra marital sex don't really have anything to do with politics at all. There are scores of right-wing politicians we could all name who have had extra-marital affairs. I daresay it would be hard to name more than a handful of right-wing politicians who haven't had premarital sex. Likewise, Silvio Berlusconi is well known for his use of "bunga bunga girls" (i.e. prostitutes) and he's about as rightwing as mainstream politicians come. None of this makes any of them left-wing.

I think the idea that Bond's monarchism could be construed as left-wing is nonsensical. Again, that's not to say it's not compatible with left wing politics (I'm left wing but also a monarchist.) The classic definitions of right-left is that the right-wing believes in the politics of order (conservatism) whilst the left-wing believes in the politics of progress (liberalism). Bond is pretty clearly a conservative in almost every respect. I'd really struggle to pick a single incident from the novels where he could be seen as displaying left-wing sympathies.

I really think Bond's about as right-wing a hero as you'll find.

I understand your points about homophobia being commonplace in the 50s but, again, Bond's beliefs are clearly not left-wing (even if they are normal for the period.) It was probably a mistake to bring that up though because it wasn't really a political issue at the time.

On the segment I have put in bold and underlined here @Sir_James_Moloney:

I'd have to point to James Bond's sympathies with the left-wing Castro rebels in the Fleming short story 'Quantum of Solace' here, before he fire-bombs their arms cargo boats - that was a left-wing sympathy for Castro rebels in the late '50s before the overthrow of the right-wing Fulgencio Bastista in January 1959. One suspects that his sympathies rather died off post the 1959 Cuban Revolution of Fidel Castro, though, as Francisco Scaramanga worked for Castro's interests in the final Bond novel The Man with the Golden Gun (1965).

TheWizardOfIce

Dragonpol wrote:

As you do say, Bond was liberal on many of the vices of modern life - he also liked and indeed visited prostitutes for heaven's sake!

Does he? I can only recall the losing of his virginity when he was a teenager.

In TLD he is tempted (although I suppose the fact that he knows the address is telling) but opts for an invigorating stroll by the Wansee and given the ease he has pulling birds I think its something he dabbled in but was not a habitual user by any means.

And to tie in with Sir James's points above both working men and high up members of the establishment use prostitutes so I dont think sexual habits are any indication of politics.

Dragonpol

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

As you do say, Bond was liberal on many of the vices of modern life - he also liked and indeed visited prostitutes for heaven's sake!

Does he? I can only recall the losing of his virginity when he was a teenager.

In TLD he is tempted (although I suppose the fact that he knows the address is telling) but opts for an invigorating stroll by the Wansee and given the ease he has pulling birds I think its something he dabbled in but was not a habitual user by any means.

And to tie in with Sir James's points above both working men and high up members of the establishment use prostitutes so I dont think sexual habits are any indication of politics.

I think there was mention of it in the Moonraker novel too, if I recall. The Marthe Richards Law in France gets another mention after its outing in Casino Royale. But as you say, this is mere chatter by myself. I am sorry for diverting the thread in this area beyond Bond's politics, perhaps.

JawsIsAlive

We're never really given any indication of Bond's political beliefs. His social attitudes are pretty liberal for the 50s, but that doesn't mean his political allegiances are the same. I doubt Fleming really concerned himself with it.

Dragonpol

I still think it's a little bit odd that Fleming said in interviews that what politics he did have would most likely be left-of-centre. I see no real evidence for it in the books and short stories, short of that scene in the QoS short story, and that is one incident frozen in time.

chrisisall

Sir_James_Moloney wrote:

Premarital sex and extra marital sex don't really have anything to do with politics at all.

Tell that to Bill Clinton. :))

Dragonpol

chrisisall wrote:

Sir_James_Moloney wrote:

Premarital sex and extra marital sex don't really have anything to do with politics at all.

Tell that to Bill Clinton. :))

He "did not have a sexual relationship with that woman, Miss Lewinsky". Not much of a liar, as my late father said.

Ludovico

Sir_James_Moloney wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

JawsIsAlive wrote:

Didn't Fleming say that Bond was supposed to be generally apolitical but what politics he had would be left of centre?

He did indeed, in several interviews I've read of him.

I think it makes sense. Being a civil servant, Bond must have some positive vision of the state, after all he works for it. Even his monarchism could be seen as somewhat statist. And like Chrisisall said, he is more "liberal" on many aspects of his life: he has no problems with premarital sex, extramarital sex, interracial relationships. As for his homophobia, at the time he was written, people from the left to the right were homophobic, it was hardly a political statement to be.

@chrisisall, @Ludovico and @Dragonpol, I understand your points of view and accept that it's possible to be right-wing in some respects and left-wing in others (seems increasingly popular for wealthy young men and women to describe themselves as 'fiscally conservative and socially liberal', for example) but I think there's some confusion here about the definition of right-left politics.

Premarital sex and extra marital sex don't really have anything to do with politics at all. There are scores of right-wing politicians we could all name who have had extra-marital affairs. I daresay it would be hard to name more than a handful of right-wing politicians who haven't had premarital sex. Likewise, Silvio Berlusconi is well known for his use of "bunga bunga girls" (i.e. prostitutes) and he's about as rightwing as mainstream politicians come. None of this makes any of them left-wing.

I think the idea that Bond's monarchism could be construed as left-wing is nonsensical. Again, that's not to say it's not compatible with left wing politics (I'm left wing but also a monarchist.) The classic definitions of right-left is that the right-wing believes in the politics of order (conservatism) whilst the left-wing believes in the politics of progress (liberalism). Bond is pretty clearly a conservative in almost every respect. I'd really struggle to pick a single incident from the novels where he could be seen as displaying left-wing sympathies.

I really think Bond's about as right-wing a hero as you'll find.

I understand your points about homophobia being commonplace in the 50s but, again, Bond's beliefs are clearly not left-wing (even if they are normal for the period.) It was probably a mistake to bring that up though because it wasn't really a political issue at the time.

I don't find Bond very much left wing myselg, however 1)Fleming did mention he was slightly leaning to the left and 2)I don't think Bond is overtly conservative either. He does believe in tradition and political order, but not to the point of thinking British society is decadent, or falling apart or whatever. Yes, many conservative politicians do not preach by example regarding extramarital or premarital sex, but I see none of their hypocrisy in Bond (Berlusconi being the exception, he's not a hypocrite, just terribly cynical, and I would add sexually depraved): he does sleep with married women and does have sex while a bachelor, however he never advocates for monogamy himself. That does not make him left wing of course, but it certainly tempers his conservatism.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

Sir_James_Moloney wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

JawsIsAlive wrote:

Didn't Fleming say that Bond was supposed to be generally apolitical but what politics he had would be left of centre?

He did indeed, in several interviews I've read of him.

I think it makes sense. Being a civil servant, Bond must have some positive vision of the state, after all he works for it. Even his monarchism could be seen as somewhat statist. And like Chrisisall said, he is more "liberal" on many aspects of his life: he has no problems with premarital sex, extramarital sex, interracial relationships. As for his homophobia, at the time he was written, people from the left to the right were homophobic, it was hardly a political statement to be.

@chrisisall, @Ludovico and @Dragonpol, I understand your points of view and accept that it's possible to be right-wing in some respects and left-wing in others (seems increasingly popular for wealthy young men and women to describe themselves as 'fiscally conservative and socially liberal', for example) but I think there's some confusion here about the definition of right-left politics.

Premarital sex and extra marital sex don't really have anything to do with politics at all. There are scores of right-wing politicians we could all name who have had extra-marital affairs. I daresay it would be hard to name more than a handful of right-wing politicians who haven't had premarital sex. Likewise, Silvio Berlusconi is well known for his use of "bunga bunga girls" (i.e. prostitutes) and he's about as rightwing as mainstream politicians come. None of this makes any of them left-wing.

I think the idea that Bond's monarchism could be construed as left-wing is nonsensical. Again, that's not to say it's not compatible with left wing politics (I'm left wing but also a monarchist.) The classic definitions of right-left is that the right-wing believes in the politics of order (conservatism) whilst the left-wing believes in the politics of progress (liberalism). Bond is pretty clearly a conservative in almost every respect. I'd really struggle to pick a single incident from the novels where he could be seen as displaying left-wing sympathies.

I really think Bond's about as right-wing a hero as you'll find.

I understand your points about homophobia being commonplace in the 50s but, again, Bond's beliefs are clearly not left-wing (even if they are normal for the period.) It was probably a mistake to bring that up though because it wasn't really a political issue at the time.

I don't find Bond very much left wing myselg, however 1)Fleming did mention he was slightly leaning to the left and 2)I don't think Bond is overtly conservative either. He does believe in tradition and political order, but not to the point of thinking British society is decadent, or falling apart or whatever. Yes, many conservative politicians do not preach by example regarding extramarital or premarital sex, but I see none of their hypocrisy in Bond (Berlusconi being the exception, he's not a hypocrite, just terribly cynical, and I would add sexually depraved): he does sleep with married women and does have sex while a bachelor, however he never advocates for monogamy himself. That does not make him left wing of course, but it certainly tempers his conservatism.

Conservatism or near-fascism? I'm never sure with Burly, though I am a kind of fan!

Ludovico

Berlusconi is a depraved satyre.

chrisisall

Dragonpol wrote:

He "did not have a sexual relationship with that woman, Miss Lewinsky". Not much of a liar, as my late father said.

In answering, he just should have said "You caught me with more than my hands up." :-?

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

Berlusconi is a depraved satyre.

Agreed, though he's more colourful than our boring lot. Plus, he gets extra marks from me for comparing a German in the European Parliament to being a good extermination camp guard extra in a film about the Holocaust! You've got to admire his general tactlessness.

Sir_James_Moloney

Ludovico wrote:

I don't find Bond very much left wing myselg, however 1)Fleming did mention he was slightly leaning to the left and 2)I don't think Bond is overtly conservative either. He does believe in tradition and political order, but not to the point of thinking British society is decadent, or falling apart or whatever. Yes, many conservative politicians do not preach by example regarding extramarital or premarital sex, but I see none of their hypocrisy in Bond (Berlusconi being the exception, he's not a hypocrite, just terribly cynical, and I would add sexually depraved): he does sleep with married women and does have sex while a bachelor, however he never advocates for monogamy himself. That does not make him left wing of course, but it certainly tempers his conservatism.

I see Bond as being more slightly conservative than you do @Ludovico but it's a fairly minor disagreement. We both seem to agree that Bond isn't a very political man. If I try to imagine which party Fleming's Bond would have voted for in '55 and '59 I can only see him voting Conservative (certainly can't imagine him voting Labour) but I don't really imagine he would have voted at all.

Berlusconi is a horrible human being and a disaster as a politician but he gets away with it because he's "colourful." Very very similar to Boris Johnson in that regard (although I don't think Johnson is nearly so awful)

Thanks for pointing out that passage in QoS @Dragonpol. I don't remember it but will be coming back to QoS very very soon on my Fleming marathon (just started FAVTAK)

Dragonpol

Sir_James_Moloney wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

I don't find Bond very much left wing myselg, however 1)Fleming did mention he was slightly leaning to the left and 2)I don't think Bond is overtly conservative either. He does believe in tradition and political order, but not to the point of thinking British society is decadent, or falling apart or whatever. Yes, many conservative politicians do not preach by example regarding extramarital or premarital sex, but I see none of their hypocrisy in Bond (Berlusconi being the exception, he's not a hypocrite, just terribly cynical, and I would add sexually depraved): he does sleep with married women and does have sex while a bachelor, however he never advocates for monogamy himself. That does not make him left wing of course, but it certainly tempers his conservatism.

I see Bond as being more slightly conservative than you do @Ludovico but it's a fairly minor disagreement. We both seem to agree that Bond isn't a very political man. If I try to imagine which party Fleming's Bond would have voted for in '55 and '59 I can only see him voting Conservative (certainly can't imagine him voting Labour) but I don't really imagine he would have voted at all.

Berlusconi is a horrible human being and a disaster as a politician but he gets away with it because he's "colourful." Very very similar to Boris Johnson in that regard (although I don't think Johnson is nearly so awful)

I like Boris Johnson - he has the popular touch and would make a great PM and would probably do a lot better job than our current one. He's got his head screwed on.

BeatlesSansEarmuffs

I have to admit that I haven't paid much to attention to Berlusconi. Remo Williams either, for that matter.

Superman, Batman & Bond; these are different subjects entirely.

Superman is a hopeless, died-in the wool liberal. In one of the earliest Action Comics stories, he tears down a slum in order to force the government to build a brand-new housing project. He wantonly destroys private property (defective automobiles) in another early adventure, hoping to stop a shameless (capitalist) profiteer who is knowingly selling shoddy products without concern for the damage those products may subsequently cause. In later adventures DC editors forced his creators to abandon this political angle; but there's no two ways about it: at his roots, the Man of Steel is a man of The People.

Batman is a little more complicated: a millionaire (later, billionaire) playboy whose parents were killed by a criminal when he was a child, Bruce Wayne is a public-minded philanthropist as well as a staunch capitalist. As a crime-fighter he feels no compunction about violating his foes' civil rights whenever it's convenient...and yet he is adamantly opposed to capital punishment, and never carries a gun -- in fact, he HATES guns, and even fairly recently appeared in a DC publication that was dedicated to stronger gun control. I'd hestitate to classify billionaire Bruce Wayne as quite the liberal that crusading journalist Clark Kent is, but they are not totally out of sympathy with one another.

Now as far as Bond is concerned: again, there is some degree of internal conflict here. We also have a degree of inconsistency that is almost inevitable when there are multiple creative voices working on a character over the course of decades. Additionally, viewpoints that Fleming would have considered Liberal in the 1950s can be seen as exceedingly Conservative sixty years down the road. Looking at what we've seen about his early history, I think it's entirely conceivable that Bond's sympathies are more working-class than ruling class. (The enjoyment he seemed to get out of treating the upper-class Tibbet as a lowly servant in AVTAK would probably support this point of view.) I also think that as a civil servant he doesn't much care which party is in power as long as the 00 section is properly funded.

Ludovico

BeatlesSansEarmuffs wrote:

I have to admit that I haven't paid much to attention to Berlusconi. Remo Williams either, for that matter.

Superman, Batman & Bond; these are different subjects entirely.

Superman is a hopeless, died-in the wool liberal. In one of the earliest Action Comics stories, he tears down a slum in order to force the government to build a brand-new housing project. He wantonly destroys private property (defective automobiles) in another early adventure, hoping to stop a shameless (capitalist) profiteer who is knowingly selling shoddy products without concern for the damage those products may subsequently cause. In later adventures DC editors forced his creators to abandon this political angle; but there's no two ways about it: at his roots, the Man of Steel is a man of The People.

Batman is a little more complicated: a millionaire (later, billionaire) playboy whose parents were killed by a criminal when he was a child, Bruce Wayne is a public-minded philanthropist as well as a staunch capitalist. As a crime-fighter he feels no compunction about violating his foes' civil rights whenever it's convenient...and yet he is adamantly opposed to capital punishment, and never carries a gun -- in fact, he HATES guns, and even fairly recently appeared in a DC publication that was dedicated to stronger gun control. I'd hestitate to classify billionaire Bruce Wayne as quite the liberal that crusading journalist Clark Kent is, but they are not totally out of sympathy with one another.

Now as far as Bond is concerned: again, there is some degree of internal conflict here. We also have a degree of inconsistency that is almost inevitable when there are multiple creative voices working on a character over the course of decades. Additionally, viewpoints that Fleming would have considered Liberal in the 1950s can be seen as exceedingly Conservative sixty years down the road. Looking at what we've seen about his early history, I think it's entirely conceivable that Bond's sympathies are more working-class than ruling class. (The enjoyment he seemed to get out of treating the upper-class Tibbet as a lowly servant in AVTAK would probably support this point of view.) I also think that as a civil servant he doesn't much care which party is in power as long as the 00 section is properly funded.

This is a really good analysis of all three characters actually.