Heroes like James Bond, Batman, Remo Williams & Superman- are they Left or Right politically?

Seven_Point_Six_Five

I won't even remark on Bond's political leanings because I don't know the first thing about British politics.

As for American comic book heroes, you can certainly identify characteristics that indicate their political leanings, but don't overlook the political climates of their time. Whether it was Superman battling corrupt businessmen and politicians during the depression or Captain America slugging Hitler in the face during WW2, these heroes continuously swung left and right along with America's political pendulum over the decades. Comic books and their heroes often reflected the national mood.

chrisisall

Seven_Point_Six_Five wrote:

I won't even remark on Bond's political leanings because I don't know the first thing about British politics.

As I understand it, when a bloke from the UK says Bond is Conservative, that translates here in the US to Moderate.

timmer

Bond cavorts with prostitutes in YOLT. Bond, Tiger and Dikko "party-it-up" good, before Bond hunkers down to the business of slaying the dragon in the castle.
Bond IMO is apolitical. He is motivated by duty and his own sense of justice. Politics is a weasal game. Bond is above such fray.
Also, extra-marital sexcapades have nothing to do with political leanings. Nor does boozing or indulging other vices. Both liberals and conservatives are quite prone to such activities.

Ludovico

timmer wrote:

Bond IMO is apolitical. He is motivated by duty and his own sense of justice. Politics is a weasal game. Bond is above such fray.
Also, extra-marital sexcapades have nothing to do with political leanings. Nor does boozing or indulging other vices. Both liberals and conservatives are quite prone to such activities.

I would agree that Bond is not very much into politics. You can be a patriot and be pretty much everywhere on the political spectrum. Regarding certain vices, however, certain political views condemn them and because of their political views people advocate strongly against them, even though they might not preach by example. Bond does not seem to have issues with his vices: drinking, womanizing, etc.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

timmer wrote:

Bond IMO is apolitical. He is motivated by duty and his own sense of justice. Politics is a weasal game. Bond is above such fray.
Also, extra-marital sexcapades have nothing to do with political leanings. Nor does boozing or indulging other vices. Both liberals and conservatives are quite prone to such activities.

I would agree that Bond is not very much into politics. You can be a patriot and be pretty much everywhere on the political spectrum. Regarding certain vices, however, certain political views condemn them and because of their political views people advocate strongly against them, even though they might not preach by example. Bond does not seem to have issues with his vices: drinking, womanizing, etc.

There's also the point that John Gardner made about James Bond and politics in an interview in 1984 on Role of Honour where he said that Bond can't have political opinions. Gardner had given Bond some political opinions towards the end of Role of Honour and he was told by Glidrose that he could not give Bond any political opinions to Bond. Instead he had to attribute the opinions/thoughts that Bond was having to his chief M. Gardner stated in the interview that the reason for this was that was that Bond had readers from the left and readers from the right and having Bond have political thoughts would offend one side or the other, so it was to be avoided. This is another reason for Bond not having political thoughts that I thought was worth mentioning. Perhaps Fleming had the same thoughts on James Bond and politics?

JawsIsAlive

Dragonpol wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

timmer wrote:

Bond IMO is apolitical. He is motivated by duty and his own sense of justice. Politics is a weasal game. Bond is above such fray.
Also, extra-marital sexcapades have nothing to do with political leanings. Nor does boozing or indulging other vices. Both liberals and conservatives are quite prone to such activities.

I would agree that Bond is not very much into politics. You can be a patriot and be pretty much everywhere on the political spectrum. Regarding certain vices, however, certain political views condemn them and because of their political views people advocate strongly against them, even though they might not preach by example. Bond does not seem to have issues with his vices: drinking, womanizing, etc.

There's also the point that John Gardner made about James Bond and politics in an interview in 1984 on Role of Honour where he said that Bond can't have political opinions. Gardner had given Bond some political opinions towards the end of Role of Honour and he was told by Glidrose that he could not give Bond any political opinions to Bond. Instead he had to attribute the opinions/thoughts that Bond was having to his chief M. Gardner stated in the interview that the reason for this was that was that Bond had readers from the left and readers from the right and having Bond have political thoughts would offend one side or the other, so it was to be avoided. This is another reason for Bond not having political thoughts that I thought was worth mentioning. Perhaps Fleming had the same thoughts on James Bond and politics?

That's a good point, giving Bond a certain political outlook would alienate readers, which is never good for maintaining sales or a fan base.

timmer

But more to the point, Bond is a blunt instrument. He is motivated by duty and a sense of justice. Politics, which involves much compromise, is anathema to a man like Bond. Leave the politics to the weasals. Even Bond's brief empathy with the Cuban rebels in QoS, I think simply reflects Flemings disgust with the gangster Batista regime, that had to go. Turns out, not surprisingly, that the socialist wonderboys that followed were just as brutal.
It's like picking a side in the current Syrian conflict I think.

BeatlesSansEarmuffs

Ludovico wrote:

This is a really good analysis of all three characters actually.

Thanks, Ludovico!

Dragonpol

timmer wrote:

But more to the point, Bond is a blunt instrument. He is motivated by duty and a sense of justice. Politics, which involves much compromise, is anathema to a man like Bond. Leave the politics to the weasals. Even Bond's brief empathy with the Cuban rebels in QoS, I think simply reflects Flemings disgust with the gangster Batista regime, that had to go. Turns out, not surprisingly, that the socialist wonderboys that followed were just as brutal.
It's like picking a side in the current Syrian conflict I think.

Well said, It seems to me that James Bond is there when the politics of consensus fails. James Bond is a man of action, a field agent and not a desk agent. As you rightly say, politics is anathema to him.

Ludovico

I think civil servants, especially at this level and this line of work, need to remain politically neutral as they have to be loyal to the state whoever runs it, Labour or Tory.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

I think civil servants, especially at this level and this line of work, need to remain politically neutral as they have to be loyal to the state whoever runs it, Labour or Tory.

That is correct. The independence of the civil service is one of the great institutions our democratic body politick is built on.

TheWizardOfIce

chrisisall wrote:

Seven_Point_Six_Five wrote:

I won't even remark on Bond's political leanings because I don't know the first thing about British politics.

As I understand it, when a bloke from the UK says Bond is Conservative, that translates here in the US to Moderate.

Except of course that to be a Conservative over here does not automatically mean you are a Christian. As someone who is right wing I should find myself a Republican voter stateside but my abhorrence of the influence of religion on the US political system would probably find me voting Democrat if at all.

Thankfully in Britain at least (although certainly not in Europe) religion is an utter irrelevance in party politics.

You are right though when you describe UK Conservativism as being moderate compared to US. Things like gun control, capital punishment and the eagerness to invade other countries which are basic requirements for a Republican candidate would be political suicide in this country.

And things like the gay marriage bill would be political suicide for a Republican (although that is also looking like suicide for Cameron too at the moment).

Anyway back to Bond. He is clearly part of the establishment (Eton, Blades, flat in Chelsea, Bentley, hand made cigarettes from Morlands, Rolex, caviar, champagne etc) so it is inconceivable that he would vote anything other than Tory. This is before the days when Tony Blair took most of the Conservative middle ground remember. Labour was a proper socialist party for the common man and given the situation with the USSR I imagine a Labour supporter within MI6 would have been treated with grave suspicion.

Fleming does give occasional titbits of left thinking from Bond but this could be just an attempt to neautralise his clear right of centre position as a clubland civil servant who kills for the government and try not to alienate Joe Public too much from reading his books.

Dragonpol

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

Seven_Point_Six_Five wrote:

I won't even remark on Bond's political leanings because I don't know the first thing about British politics.

As I understand it, when a bloke from the UK says Bond is Conservative, that translates here in the US to Moderate.

Except of course that to be a Conservative over here does not automatically mean you are a Christian. As someone who is right wing I should find myself a Republican voter stateside but my abhorrence of the influence of religion on the US political system would probably find me voting Democrat if at all.

Thankfully in Britain at least (although certainly not in Europe) religion is an utter irrelevance in party politics.

You are right though when you describe UK Conservativism as being moderate compared to US. Things like gun control, capital punishment and the eagerness to invade other countries which are basic requirements for a Republican candidate would be political suicide in this country.

And things like the gay marriage bill would be political suicide for a Republican (although that is also looking like suicide for Cameron too at the moment).

Anyway back to Bond. He is clearly part of the establishment (Eton, Blades, flat in Chelsea, Bentley, hand made cigarettes from Morlands, Rolex, caviar, champagne etc) so it is inconceivable that he would vote anything other than Tory. This is before the days when Tony Blair took most of the Conservative middle ground remember. Labour was a proper socialist party for the common man and given the situation with the USSR I imagine a Labour supporter within MI6 would have been treated with grave suspicion.

Fleming does give occasional titbits of left thinking from Bond but this could be just an attempt to neautralise his clear right of centre position as a clubland civil servant who kills for the government and try not to alienate Joe Public too much from reading his books.

You're right here, though I am a Christian and conservative. As you say, in America, I'd too vote Democratic. Republicans start too many wars they have to share with the UK. And good explanation on Bond and left wing views - a neat trick by Fleming, I suspect.

chrisisall

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Fleming does give occasional titbits of left thinking from Bond but this could be just an attempt to neautralise his clear right of centre position as a clubland civil servant who kills for the government and try not to alienate Joe Public too much from reading his books.

As a former total Leftie, I'd like to believe that like me, as Fleming aged, he came to see the total nonsense in politics both left & right. So maybe it wasn't 'left' thinking, or 'right' thinking, but just 'thinking'.

timmer

As a reformed liberal, now staunchly conservative, I will always vote for the party which espouses the most small "c" conservative values, limited decentralized government, individual liberties and emphasis on free markets. Oddly enough, in British Columbia that would be the actual Liberal Party, which has moved right and "stolen" the conservative vote. Here in Ontario I would vote Conservative and of course Tory federally. And if American, I would defintely vote Republican. There isn't much conservative to latch on to, with the Democrats.
If I was a double-0 agent, I would fight for Queen and country, and leave the politics to the weasals, but dutifully show up on election day to vote Tory. I'd stop short of putting up a lawn sign though.

OHMSS69

I don't know about the others, they seem apolitical but Superman would be the closest and I might have lumped him into the Right Wing but he seems to lack the blood thirsty, violent loving ways of folks on the far right.
He is all for "family values" and all that but I doubt he would support the death penalty.

Gerard

My take:

Superman: Probably votes Democrat

Batman : Moderate Republican. Yes, he's rich, but he has a lot of charitable work thanks to the Wayne Foundation.

Remo Williams : Republican (his authors certainly were, of the Fox News variety. Frankly, some of their views puzzled me, such as the one that said that an all-volunteer army was worse than a conscripted one because officers couldn't browbeat their men. Yeah, right !)

Bond : I view him as a "One Nation" Tory.

Anyway, a fiction hero, more often than not, follows the views of the author writing his adventures. Which leads to the heroes of some franchises to held widely dissimilar views in a short span, depending on his or her writer. Example : Superman. Yes, he has fought against death penalty in a few stories, but on one well-publicized occasion, he has executed three Kryptonian criminals who had destroyed a pocket universe. Granted, he became somwhat imbalanced afterwards, but he did it.

Dragonpol

Gerard wrote:

My take:

Superman: Probably votes Democrat

Batman : Moderate Republican. Yes, he's rich, but he has a lot of charitable work thanks to the Wayne Foundation.

Remo Williams : Republican (his authors certainly were, of the Fox News variety. Frankly, some of their views puzzled me, such as the one that said that an all-volunteer army was worse than a conscripted one because officers couldn't browbeat their men. Yeah, right !)

Bond : I view him as a "One Nation" Tory.

Anyway, a fiction hero, more often than not, follows the views of the author writing his adventures. Which leads to the heroes of some franchises to held widely dissimilar views in a short span, depending on his or her writer. Example : Superman. Yes, he has fought against death penalty in a few stories, but on one well-publicized occasion, he has executed three Kryptonian criminals who had destroyed a pocket universe. Granted, he became somwhat imbalanced afterwards, but he did it.

I agree on Bond being a "One Nation" Tory - I am of this school of conservatism myself.

Perdogg

Dragonpol wrote:

You're right here, though I am a Christian and conservative. As you say, in America, I'd too vote Democratic. Republicans start too many wars they have to share with the UK. And good explanation on Bond and left wing views - a neat trick by Fleming, I suspect.

I am astounded at this statement. I am not sure about what Republicans started which wars. Truman was the President who got us in Korea after being warned never to get the US in land war in Asia, Kennedy/Johnson got us into Vietnam.

Both wars in Iraq did start under Republican presidents, Bush 41 and Bush 43, however, in 1991 both Houses of the US Congress were run by Democrats who voted for the use force to evict Saddam from Kuwait.

In 2002, Bush 43 got approval from the Congress, The Senate at the time was run by the Democrats. In fact, HR Clinton & Kerry (future Obama Secs of State -both voted for the war) as did Biden (The VP of the US) and Obama current SecDef (Hagel).

70% of the US deaths in Afghanistan have occurred since Obama.

Dragonpol

Perdogg wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

You're right here, though I am a Christian and conservative. As you say, in America, I'd too vote Democratic. Republicans start too many wars they have to share with the UK. And good explanation on Bond and left wing views - a neat trick by Fleming, I suspect.

I am astounded at this statement. I am not sure about what Republicans started which wars. Truman was the President who got us in Korea after being warned never to get the US in land war in Asia, Kennedy/Johnson got us into Vietnam.

Both wars in Iraq did start under Republican presidents, Bush 41 and Bush 43, however, in 1991 both Houses of the US Congress were run by Democrats who voted for the use force to evict Saddam from Kuwait.

In 2002, Bush 43 got approval from the Congress, The Senate at the time was run by the Democrats. In fact, HR Clinton & Kerry (future Obama Secs of State -both voted for the war) as did Biden (The VP of the US) and Obama current SecDef (Hagel).

70% of the US deaths in Afghanistan have occurred since Obama.

OK, I stand corrected then, as I'm not an expert on American politics, though I have written a Law dissertation on war powers in the UK.

chrisisall

Perdogg wrote:

I am astounded at this statement. I am not sure about what Republicans started which wars. Truman was the President who got us in Korea after being warned never to get the US in land war in Asia, Kennedy/Johnson got us into Vietnam.

Both wars in Iraq did start under Republican presidents, Bush 41 and Bush 43, however, in 1991 both Houses of the US Congress were run by Democrats who voted for the use force to evict Saddam from Kuwait.

In 2002, Bush 43 got approval from the Congress, The Senate at the time was run by the Democrats. In fact, HR Clinton & Kerry (future Obama Secs of State -both voted for the war) as did Biden (The VP of the US) and Obama current SecDef (Hagel).

70% of the US deaths in Afghanistan have occurred since Obama.

You have made my case for me sir as to why I view Reps & Dems pretty much the same here in the US. I always find myself voting for the lesser (even if it's just by a bit) of two evils, both invariably schmucks.

Dragonpol

chrisisall wrote:

Perdogg wrote:

I am astounded at this statement. I am not sure about what Republicans started which wars. Truman was the President who got us in Korea after being warned never to get the US in land war in Asia, Kennedy/Johnson got us into Vietnam.

Both wars in Iraq did start under Republican presidents, Bush 41 and Bush 43, however, in 1991 both Houses of the US Congress were run by Democrats who voted for the use force to evict Saddam from Kuwait.

In 2002, Bush 43 got approval from the Congress, The Senate at the time was run by the Democrats. In fact, HR Clinton & Kerry (future Obama Secs of State -both voted for the war) as did Biden (The VP of the US) and Obama current SecDef (Hagel).

70% of the US deaths in Afghanistan have occurred since Obama.

You have made my case for me sir as to why I view Reps & Dems pretty much the same here in the US. I always find myself voting for the lesser (even if it's just by a bit) of two evils, both invariably schmucks.

Yes, it was a very well written post that has increased my rating of perdogg, who members here very erroneously thought was a troll. I think I had rather oversimplified American politics there, but as I say I'm no expert!

chrisisall

Here's an imagined exchange that spells out Bond's political beliefs IMO:
"Now Bond, we still don't know if your target is funded by the left or the right-"
" Doesn't matter; I'll aim for his middle."


:P

Dragonpol

chrisisall wrote:

Here's an imagined exchange that spells out Bond's political beliefs IMO:
"Now Bond, we still don't know if your target is funded by the left or the right-"
" Doesn't matter; I'll aim for his middle."


:P

Yes, that pretty much sums up Bond's raison d'etre. I agree fully.

Ludovico

Wasn't Tony Blair accused of instrumentalising MI6 politically at some point during the Iraq war? He had nominated a friend as C, if I remember correctly. Ironically enough, he comes from a left leaning party and he was a close ally to a conservative president.

chrisisall

Ludovico wrote:

Ironically enough, he comes from a left leaning party and he was a close ally to a conservative president.

Strange bedfellows.
So, sex IS political.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

Wasn't Tony Blair accused of instrumentalising MI6 politically at some point during the Iraq war? He had nominated a friend as C, if I remember correctly. Ironically enough, he comes from a left leaning party and he was a close ally to a conservative president.

Yes, but as Peter Mandelson said, "We're all Thatcherites now!". How very true.

chrisisall

Dragonpol wrote:

"We're all Thatcherites now!". How very true.

Dragonpol

The Iron Lady's not for turning, even in her grave, God rest her.

timmer

I'm not sure Remo Williams would support the death penalty, being an electric-chair survivor and all.
Masters of Sinanju much prefer a proper assassination. It's much better for business and far more dignified, that is if Remo can keep his elbow straight (Chiun).