ALIEN Franchise

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  • edited May 2017 Posts: 6,844
    I wouldn't be so quick to judge Alien 3, @BMW_with_missiles. Much like OHMSS or Dalton's Bonds, Alien 3 was dismissed upon release but has received a much more favorable reappraisal since. It really is a bit of a dark masterpiece from Fincher that demonstrates much of his artistic and directorial talent with strong performances throughout, especially Sigourney. The carnage is supremely gory. The music by Goldenthal is astonishingly good for a genre film. The themes run deep. And the ending is actually a beautifully fitting way to conclude the trilogy. Perhaps, really, the only way they could have concluded the trilogy. There's no way they could have done Alien 3 with Hicks and Newt still in the picture, unless they were just going to do Aliens 2 without progressing thematically. Alien 3 made the right call. It was a gutsy call that many people turned on instantly, but it was the right call. The film didn't take a dump on Aliens. It did what needed to be done to continue Ripley's battle against the xenomorphs and the Company in a way that made the most sense. I think you owe it to yourself to give Alien 3 a watch if you're a fan of the first two and want to see where Ripley's journey takes her. I'd also recommend Alien: Resurrection, but for entirely different reasons than Alien 3.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Anyone checking out 'Alien 3' and 'Resurrection' for the first time should go with the appropriate director's cut versions, too. Makes the films much better, in my opinion.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    I wouldn't be so quick to judge Alien 3, @BMW_with_missiles. Much like OHMSS or Dalton's Bonds, Alien 3 was dismissed upon release but has received a much more favorable reappraisal since. It really is a bit of a dark masterpiece from Fincher that demonstrates much of his artistic and directorial talent with strong performances throughout, especially Sigourney. The carnage is supremely gory. The music by Goldenthal is astonishingly good for a genre film. The themes run deep. And the ending is actually a beautifully fitting way to conclude the trilogy. Perhaps, really, the only way they could have concluded the trilogy. There's no way they could have done Alien 3 with Hicks and Newt still in the picture, unless they were just going to do Aliens 2 without progressing thematically. Alien 3 made the right call. It was a gutsy call that many people turned on instantly, but it was the right call. The film didn't take a dump on Aliens. It did what needed to be done to continue Ripley's battle against the xenomorphs and the Company in a way that made the most sense. I think you owe it to yourself to give Alien 3 a watch if you're a fan of the first two and want to see where Ripley's journey takes her. I'd also recommend Alien: Resurrection, but for entirely different reasons than Alien 3.

    I see what you're saying, but I still don't think they needed to kill off Newt and Hicks. The events of Alien 3 did not have to pick up immediately after Aliens. It could be assumed that the Sulaco made it home safe, and Hicks and Newt could be out of the picture without killing them off. The story could progress some other way. Their deaths, especially Newt's, makes the events of the previous film pointless. It particularly ruins the dramatic rescue from the hive; an otherwise awesome triumph in the series.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    I wouldn't be so quick to judge Alien 3, @BMW_with_missiles. Much like OHMSS or Dalton's Bonds, Alien 3 was dismissed upon release but has received a much more favorable reappraisal since. It really is a bit of a dark masterpiece from Fincher that demonstrates much of his artistic and directorial talent with strong performances throughout, especially Sigourney. The carnage is supremely gory. The music by Goldenthal is astonishingly good for a genre film. The themes run deep. And the ending is actually a beautifully fitting way to conclude the trilogy. Perhaps, really, the only way they could have concluded the trilogy. There's no way they could have done Alien 3 with Hicks and Newt still in the picture, unless they were just going to do Aliens 2 without progressing thematically. Alien 3 made the right call. It was a gutsy call that many people turned on instantly, but it was the right call. The film didn't take a dump on Aliens. It did what needed to be done to continue Ripley's battle against the xenomorphs and the Company in a way that made the most sense. I think you owe it to yourself to give Alien 3 a watch if you're a fan of the first two and want to see where Ripley's journey takes her. I'd also recommend Alien: Resurrection, but for entirely different reasons than Alien 3.

    I see what you're saying, but I still don't think they needed to kill off Newt and Hicks. The events of Alien 3 did not have to pick up immediately after Aliens. It could be assumed that the Sulaco made it home safe, and Hicks and Newt could be out of the picture without killing them off. The story could progress some other way. Their deaths, especially Newt's, makes the events of the previous film pointless. It particularly ruins the dramatic rescue from the hive; an otherwise awesome triumph in the series.

    I'm usually not a fan of sequels that do that: take the predecessor's great ending and negate a large chunk of it in the opening minutes. It's one of my main issues with 'Alien 3'; past that and the poor puppetry work on the Xenomorph, it's a very solid film. David Fincher's first movie!
  • I wouldn't be so quick to judge Alien 3, @BMW_with_missiles. Much like OHMSS or Dalton's Bonds, Alien 3 was dismissed upon release but has received a much more favorable reappraisal since. It really is a bit of a dark masterpiece from Fincher that demonstrates much of his artistic and directorial talent with strong performances throughout, especially Sigourney. The carnage is supremely gory. The music by Goldenthal is astonishingly good for a genre film. The themes run deep. And the ending is actually a beautifully fitting way to conclude the trilogy. Perhaps, really, the only way they could have concluded the trilogy. There's no way they could have done Alien 3 with Hicks and Newt still in the picture, unless they were just going to do Aliens 2 without progressing thematically. Alien 3 made the right call. It was a gutsy call that many people turned on instantly, but it was the right call. The film didn't take a dump on Aliens. It did what needed to be done to continue Ripley's battle against the xenomorphs and the Company in a way that made the most sense. I think you owe it to yourself to give Alien 3 a watch if you're a fan of the first two and want to see where Ripley's journey takes her. I'd also recommend Alien: Resurrection, but for entirely different reasons than Alien 3.

    I see what you're saying, but I still don't think they needed to kill off Newt and Hicks. The events of Alien 3 did not have to pick up immediately after Aliens. It could be assumed that the Sulaco made it home safe, and Hicks and Newt could be out of the picture without killing them off. The story could progress some other way. Their deaths, especially Newt's, makes the events of the previous film pointless. It particularly ruins the dramatic rescue from the hive; an otherwise awesome triumph in the series.

    I understand how the opening of Alien 3 would appear to trivialize the events of Aliens, but I don't think it necessarily needs to be viewed that way. Rather I think the desperation and struggle and eventual triumph of the climax of Aliens serves to make the tragedy of Alien 3's opening all the more profound. Alien 3 works precisely because the viewer cares about Hicks and Newt and the impact they've had on Ripley's life. That's why she needed to lose them for the continuation of her story—actually really lose them like how she lost her daughter—rather than see them picked up by a passing ship and Ripley continues on in her fight against the xenomorphs elsewhere. Ripley needed to lose absolutely everyone she ever cared about because of the xenomorphs (and perhaps more importantly, because of the Company). If you're going to tell Ripley's story in three movies and make a closed trilogy out of it (which certainly appears to be what they were doing with Alien 3) that was really the only way to go story- and character-wise.
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Anyone checking out 'Alien 3' and 'Resurrection' for the first time should go with the appropriate director's cut versions, too. Makes the films much better, in my opinion.

    Alien 3 is an improvement in its assembly cut (though I still like the theatrical version plenty and prefer the xenomorph emerging from the dog rather than the ox since its appearance and movements are more doglike than ox-like). Alien: Resurrection I could easily take in its theatrical cut. I don't think the director's version adds much that's essential at all and I definitely prefer the theatrical opening titles. Could be wrong, but I think A:R's director's cut was a case like Ridley's Alien, where the director didn't really need to do a new cut but was asked to do one for the Special Edition DVD release so all the films would have two versions (most importantly Cameron's awesomely extended Aliens and Alien 3's assembly cut).
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited May 2017 Posts: 4,043
    I think getting rid of Newt & Hicks was the right move, it's not their story it's Ripley's

    She is a tragic character and giving her 2 people that she can care about and see possibility of a future is not what this series is about, it's continually hopeless no light at the end of the tunnel and I like of that, I don't expect Ripley to have a happy ending.

    This is Cameron's version, what it does is much more in spirit to the original.

    I do think 3 pretty much changes the view of Bishop, he clearly has put the facehugger there and if you have any suspicions that this isn't true when the Human Bishop played by Henrikson turns up and is clearly wanting Ripley for what she is carrying. I think it's clear that Bishop was always working for Weyland Yuntani and not the hero that Cameron's film suggests.
  • Shardlake wrote: »
    I think getting rid of Newt & Hicks was the right move, it's not their story it's Ripley's

    She is a tragic character and giving her 2 people that she can care about and see possibility of a future is not what this series is about, it's continually hopeless no light at the end of the tunnel and I like of that, I don't expect Ripley to have a happy ending.

    This is Cameron's version, what it does is much more in spirit to the original.

    Very well put. The Alien films are set in a bleak, depressing, and nightmarish future. By nature, a happy ending was never in the cards.
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I do think 3 pretty much changes the view of Bishop, he clearly has put the facehugger there and if you have any suspicions that this isn't true when the Human Bishop played by Henrikson turns up and is clearly wanting Ripley for what she is carrying. I think it's clear that Bishop was always working for Weyland Yuntani and not the hero that Cameron's film suggests.

    That is the big change. It certainly is strongly implied that Bishop was acting under Company orders, however there are other theories that could allow for an honest Bishop. One being that the Queen deposited the eggs there herself. Possibly. Another is that we don't technically see Burke die, but that one I think is a bit farther of a stretch.
  • Posts: 1,970
    But why couldnt Hicks and Newt just survive the crash and then later be killed by the Alien? Wouldn't it make Ripley war against the Alien more personal if it killed off Newt and Hicks itself?
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 6,844
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    But why couldnt Hicks and Newt just survive the crash and then later be killed by the Alien? Wouldn't it make Ripley war against the Alien more personal if it killed off Newt and Hicks itself?

    As I understand it, the facehuggers caused the ship to crash-land by breaking into the cryotubes, thus killing Hicks and Newt.

    Logistically, since they were killing Hicks and Newt anyway, it surely made more sense to not pay for Michael Biehn's return and try to recast Newt with an age-appropriate actress who looked similar enough to Carrie Henn. And as Shardlake says, it really isn't Hicks' and Newt's story. I don't know what the film would have gained by having them there for a few scenes and then killing them off.
  • Posts: 1,970
    Still tho terrible movie. No offense to some who like it but Alien 3 was utter crap. JMO. Thats why im still hoping Niels movie happens
  • Terrible because Hicks and Newt died, or for other reasons?
  • Posts: 1,970
    Terrible because Hicks and Newt died, or for other reasons?

    Didn't like the cast, i hated it took place in a prison, rather it happen on earth.

    They should of dished out the money to get Biehn back and they could of easily re cast newt.
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 6,844
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    Terrible because Hicks and Newt died, or for other reasons?

    Didn't like the cast, i hated it took place in a prison, rather it happen on earth.

    They should of dished out the money to get Biehn back and they could of easily re cast newt.

    Fair enough. For the direction they took, I thought they did an excellent job with the film, but I can understand not liking that direction, especially following Aliens. It was dark, cheerless, almost apocalyptic.
  • Posts: 1,970
    Also I hated how we never got an answer to how the face huggers got onto the Sulaco
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    Terrible because Hicks and Newt died, or for other reasons?

    Didn't like the cast, i hated it took place in a prison, rather it happen on earth.

    They should of dished out the money to get Biehn back and they could of easily re cast newt.

    Fair enough. For the direction they took, I thought they did an excellent job with the film, but I can understand not liking that direction, especially following Aliens. It was dark, cheerless, almost apocalyptic.

    That's another thing that put me off it from the clips I've seen. The best thing about horror, IMHO, is the ultimate triumph over the monster, not continuous gloom, defeat, and tragedy.
  • fjdinardo wrote: »
    Terrible because Hicks and Newt died, or for other reasons?

    Didn't like the cast, i hated it took place in a prison, rather it happen on earth.

    They should of dished out the money to get Biehn back and they could of easily re cast newt.

    Fair enough. For the direction they took, I thought they did an excellent job with the film, but I can understand not liking that direction, especially following Aliens. It was dark, cheerless, almost apocalyptic.

    That's another thing that put me off it from the clips I've seen. The best thing about horror, IMHO, is the ultimate triumph over the monster, not continuous gloom, defeat, and tragedy.

    Check out the film. Sometimes there is triumph in tragedy. ;)
  • Posts: 1,970
    So can anyone come up with a good explanation as to how the egg got onto the Sulaco?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    I'm guessing it had something to do with the Xenomorph queen they battled at the end of the second, perhaps she laid some eggs on the ship.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    Terrible because Hicks and Newt died, or for other reasons?

    Didn't like the cast, i hated it took place in a prison, rather it happen on earth.

    They should of dished out the money to get Biehn back and they could of easily re cast newt.

    Fair enough. For the direction they took, I thought they did an excellent job with the film, but I can understand not liking that direction, especially following Aliens. It was dark, cheerless, almost apocalyptic.

    That's another thing that put me off it from the clips I've seen. The best thing about horror, IMHO, is the ultimate triumph over the monster, not continuous gloom, defeat, and tragedy.

    Check out the film. Sometimes there is triumph in tragedy. ;)

    I am aware of how the film ends and I've seen that much of it. I do see how that is triumph in tragedy, and I actually quite like that ending, but not at the expense of the beginning ruining a far better, more triumphant ending to the previous film. It shall remain a two film series in my mind.

    This gives me new respect for the Bond producers. Managing to keep a film series going in the right direction for 50+ years when some series screw up after only a few is quite a feat.
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 5,767
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I'm a complete newcomer to the Alien franchise. I first saw Alien a few months back, and I just watched Aliens day before yesterday. Having just recently watched a quick synopsis of the series, I can see why people hate Alien 3 so much. It's one thing to have a bad movie, but it's entirely different when the beginning of that bad movie takes a giant dump on the ending of the previous good movie. And the rest of the films look even more ridiculous. I like the first two, and I think I'll just pretend that the rest of the series doesn't exist.

    The first two are the only ones I consistently rewatch, but I'll pop in the third and fourth one every now and then on a rare occasion. I don't bother with any of the spinoffs.

    I'm still hopeful that 'Alien: Covenant' will be a positive experience, but more of 'Prometheus' combined with the bad CG Neomorphs or whatever I see flashing across all these trailers isn't cutting it for me. It's this lazy route of CG these days that detaches me from a good bit of movies. I can't watch the practical effects of 'Alien' and jump to 'Covenant' and expect the same sort of blown-away, impressed reaction.
    My worries are much bigger. I recently can´t get enough of Alien as a slick film with not too many characters, who all leave strong imprints in my mind as human beings, and a well-told story. In front of that, the prospect of too many characters, the majority of whom appear shallow and artificial, together with a film that doesn´t decide what story it wants to tell, doesn´t attract me. I found the idea in Prometheus with David and the engineers and no xenomorph the best idea thus far for any film after Alien, but the way it´s built up is tiring. I would have loved to get a sequel with a more focussed narrative and more tension built through character, but the vibe I get recently is not at all like that.
    But I agree that bad CG effects contibute to my discomfort.

  • Posts: 5,767
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    But why couldnt Hicks and Newt just survive the crash and then later be killed by the Alien? Wouldn't it make Ripley war against the Alien more personal if it killed off Newt and Hicks itself?

    As I understand it, the facehuggers caused the ship to crash-land by breaking into the cryotubes, thus killing Hicks and Newt.

    Logistically, since they were killing Hicks and Newt anyway, it surely made more sense to not pay for Michael Biehn's return and try to recast Newt with an age-appropriate actress who looked similar enough to Carrie Henn. And as Shardlake says, it really isn't Hicks' and Newt's story. I don't know what the film would have gained by having them there for a few scenes and then killing them off.
    We see one facehugger in the openening sequence, and later on in the film one doggomorph. It is a bit weird. There have to have been at least two facehuggers, one for Ripley and one for the dog. If Hicks and Newt were also killed by facehuggers, there should have been two more xenomorphs.
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 6,844
    boldfinger wrote: »
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    But why couldnt Hicks and Newt just survive the crash and then later be killed by the Alien? Wouldn't it make Ripley war against the Alien more personal if it killed off Newt and Hicks itself?

    As I understand it, the facehuggers caused the ship to crash-land by breaking into the cryotubes, thus killing Hicks and Newt.

    Logistically, since they were killing Hicks and Newt anyway, it surely made more sense to not pay for Michael Biehn's return and try to recast Newt with an age-appropriate actress who looked similar enough to Carrie Henn. And as Shardlake says, it really isn't Hicks' and Newt's story. I don't know what the film would have gained by having them there for a few scenes and then killing them off.
    We see one facehugger in the openening sequence, and later on in the film one doggomorph. It is a bit weird. There have to have been at least two facehuggers, one for Ripley and one for the dog. If Hicks and Newt were also killed by facehuggers, there should have been two more xenomorphs.

    There were only two facehuggers—the one that breaks into Ripley's tube and the one that gets the dog. Newt drowns in her tube and we briefly see Hicks horrendously maimed by the crash.

    In my earlier post I meant that breaking into Ripley's tube is what causes the ship to go into emergency landing mode and it's the landing that results in the deaths of Newt and Hicks. Just a little confusing the way I wrote it.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    So can anyone come up with a good explanation as to how the egg got onto the Sulaco?

    As the Alien Queen had detached herself from the eggsac thing when she went after Ripley there is no explanation as to how a Fachugger got onboard the ship. Alien 3 was a ridiculous idea that was adapted from the Vincent Ward concept of a wooden monastery planet. The script was still being written while the film was being shot so no wonder it ended up such a mess of ideas and crap dialogue.

    When James Cameron signed up to do Aliens he had a clear idea of what he wanted and a script already written.

    There are some good moments in Alien 3, but then there ought to be considering the talent behind it.
  • Well we obviously differ on what constitutes good ideas and good dialogue—I find Alien 3 to feature plenty of each—but as for the eggs, three different theories have been suggested earlier in this thread: a) the Queen (and who's to say precisely how her egg-laying works and whether she would need that attachment except to deposit the eggs cleanly on the ground); b) Burke (a long shot, but not impossible); c) Bishop (the likeliest and most frequently cited probability).
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I wonder if those eggs go well with bacon.
  • They probably go well with crustacean cakes and a little Hollandaise.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Thanks for the tip. They are probably too damn expensive.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited May 2017 Posts: 3,996
    Well we obviously differ on what constitutes good ideas and good dialogue—I find Alien 3 to feature plenty of each—but as for the eggs, three different theories have been suggested earlier in this thread: a) the Queen (and who's to say precisely how her egg-laying works and whether she would need that attachment except to deposit the eggs cleanly on the ground); b) Burke (a long shot, but not impossible); c) Bishop (the likeliest and most frequently cited probability).

    I think the likeliest scenario is that the makers needed something to happen to Ripley's ship (Couldn't make the film otherwise!) to make it jettison the escape pod, and came up with 'a facehugger mysteriously got on board' with no explanation as to how it got there. Treating the audience and Cameron's film with utter contempt.

    The Bishop theory is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I bet producer's love all these 'theories' because it basically does the job for them in explaining away plot contrivances and the lack of logic in their movies.

    And the Alien films were never meant to be a 'trilogy'.
  • Posts: 1,970
    Like if there was no egg at all on the Sulaco and it was just the facehuggers then we can believe that the 2 of them were just hanging onto the queen herself and jumped off once on board the ship. But seeing that hatched egg was were they really messed up.

    One theory about how the egg got on his that when Bishop went to go to the satellite to get the other dropship he made a quick detour into the processing station to grab an egg and while ripley is going to get newt he went back and snuck it on board the drop ship
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited May 2017 Posts: 4,043
    Bishop put them there, this I think is what Alien 3 implies, no Cameron's film isn't saying this but having the human Bishop a high up in WY and wanting Ripley for the Bio Weapons department, doesn't it speak sense his creation would do his bidding.

    You could say that Burke was definitely there to do that in Aliens but surely have a plan B if he fails hence Bishop puts them there, it's much more plausible than the Alien Queen who by this time has no egg sack.
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