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"It’s probably wrong to think that a character needs a melody associated with him or her, but oftentimes it does and in the case of Bond it does more often than not."
It was Newman himself who said that, ironically. As far as I know anyway!
Yes, there's no real irony though : when fans "defend" someone on the Internet, they very often use a way of thinking that would never be accepted by the person they defend :)
Also, it seems the producers didn't want to repeat the mistake they feel they did with Eric Serra, and have something too original.
"[The Bond theme] is a great, iconic and satisfying theme to so many people, especially the fans. I definitely wanted to use it. The issue was when and where, and Sam and I, with the help of Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson [who attended the recording sessions, but would talk with Newman only through Sam Mendes], talked about where we should evoke the Bond theme."
Even young kids know the gunbarrel was meant to be at the start and moving the gunbarrel back to the start would generate basically no backlash compared to putting it at the end (I'd bet everything I own on that fact).
You're right. A 10 year old kid with no experience of Bond apart from the Craig films probably wouldn't care about the Bond theme either way.
So if it WAS used more, he still wouldn't care because the use of the James Bond theme "isn't that vital"
So if it's not vital to these new fans either way, why not use it a bit more for those fans (like myself) that do care about it? I doubt anybody, old or new fan, would be up in arms if they used the Bond theme more in Bond 24's score.
What I really want is for the full on Bond theme to kick in during the film. None of this "subtlety", not just the opening notes now and again, I want Bond to do something completely badass while his theme blares in the background (a brilliant example is TWINE when he escapes the bankers office).
That's exactly what happens in SKYFALL, several times. Bond catapults from the bridge with his bike and we hear the iconic octave leap figure of the Bond theme, Bond runs across the digger's arm and we getting the dum-dah-daaah motif along with the 3 note chromatic vamp. Then there's Silva's capture, DB5 Reveal, and the DB5's death. Even if they aren't complete renditions of the theme of them subtle, they aren't subtle and are very hard to miss.
A fair point but rather mute in that if these younger fans were really fans of the Bond series and not just Daniel Craig then they would look back upon how the older films combined there elements and would realise that the Craig films (although very strong in quality) are anything but traditional.
Strangely enough the banker moment from TWINE is probably Brozzer's best moment and that comes from someone who can't stand watching him play the role.
I noticed the subtle moments of the JB theme in Skyfall and was most happy with it's use, I've a feeling it might be a bit more prevalent in 24 and forward though.
Play a full rendition of it in the background while Bond does something cool.
OHMSS had the Bond theme during the Piz Gloria battle and I don't see anyone complaining about Barry overusing the theme for that films score.
And why is that a bad thing? He used it when it was appropriate.
Agreed the holding back of it in the Craig era might have been a little OTT but the Brosnan era just cheapened and it failed to be special, at least when we get it in a Craig film it will stand out and not feel overused.
I'd say he used it because he was told to use it more - especially in TND.
And it comes off as lazy. It completely kills the mood and momentum established by Barry's previous cue. That needle drop approach might of worked in DR. NO when they were establishing the character of Bond and the recording was current, but next to Barry's contemporary update of the theme with the sliding precision bass and Moog modular, it feels dated and like something out of another era.
As with the end credits of THUNDERBALL, they would have been better off going with Barry's original music.
1. No Twine boat chase for the end credits. Every movie after Twine doing this, also Skyfall. It is time for new end credits. David Arnold over use this theme, another example whas boat chase in QOS, why Skyfall stil use it for the end credits. Please give us something new or another version of the title song.
2. Give the tracks a less spoiled name.
3. At them in the correct order again.
4. At more bonus tracks on the single, if again it is not possible to at the title song on the soundtrack cd. For example Old Dogs New Tricks can have been on it. Better make it 2 disc next time with each 17 tracks for example.
As for the holding back of the Bond theme in Craig´s films, in CR and QOS it made sense to a certain degree, since those two films have the premise of telling the story of a Bond not yet fully matured into the 007 we know. But the end of QOS showed pretty clearly that Bond had found his peace with the Vesper thing and was ready to be that cool secret agent man we know by that cool secret agent tune. Moreover, SF clearly gives the impression that the story is set not directly after the events of QOS, but quite some years later.
Good point.
First, after the flak they got for the GE score the producers allegedly wanted more Bond theme use.
Second, Arnold is known for bubbling over with melodic ideas that he never really develops them further. So the point that he was stuck for ideas doesn´t really make sense.
Thomas Newman:
Four beautiful, moody tracks from James Bond films. They are very low-tempo and the most important instruments used in these tracks are strings (violins, cello's). The melodies? Are in all four cases recognizable enough, but melody-wise they have been simplified to create the tense, moody, erotic atmosphere. If Thomas Newman was given a bit more creative freedom, he could actually compose an entire Bond title song based on these two tracks.
But my conclusion? John Barry was big in his days. Thomas Newman is big in our time. And he should absolutely come back to do Bond 24.
With that I do agree.......but I don't like the fact that people just want to 'hear the James Bond theme' more. It's actually the reason why the Bond films weren't so succesful in the 1980's: AVTAK for instance was too much a James Bond film. The audience liked it for that, but as a movie on the while it's a different story. What do you do then.....as a tired producer? Indeed...you throw as many cheesy Bond elements in the movie as possible.
Therefore I prefer a way more nuanced use of the James Bond theme. And actually....I'm pretty certain Bond 24 will have more of these Bond elements. M, Q, Bond....they all have been re-introduced over a course of 3 films. Now time for a 'plain, solid bit of work'......as 'M' put it in DAF.
I used these two to compare similarities between Barry and Newman. These tracks are indeed by no means 'action tracks'. But perhaps I like the more romantic Bond tracks :).
Well it doesn't have to be an action track to be inspired. However, I am of the same opinion. The romantic cues are more interesting. What similarities are you referring to?
As for the thematic ideas, I might be going out on a ledge here, but it has a lot to do with arrangement of instruments. If the Bond theme is constantly played with the same horn combination, or the same string combination, then of course it gets lame and annoying. But there are many things that haven´t been tried at all. Barry had the same theme in different arrangements for every film, and there would still be a lot of possibilities to vary on that, without changing the implication of the theme so drastically as in the scene with the VW beetles.
I don´t think anybody wants to hear just the James Bond theme. I didn´t see any post claiming so. The propositions were about having it once or twice in a clear version. And then the James Bond theme is in fact a very subtle way of supporting the Bond vibe.
When Bond in DAD looks for the hidden entrance of the DNA clinic, the Bond theme in the background isn´t cheesy in the least.
This is a very interesting point, and it has also to do with my main gripe with Newman´s score. As a composer, Newman is in certain tracks probably on a level closer to Barry than Arnold ever will be. Yet as a musical accompaniment to the film, Arnold gave the films a much more coherent identity (much like Barry did), and he sounds as if he has fun doing it, whereas Newman gives the impression as if he wanted to comply to everyone´s wishes but his own.
Ah re-writing history, again. You should really stop looking at that inflation adjusted worldwide list, it actually tells more about the strength of the dollar over time than everything else (from 80 until now, the dollar was between 0.4 pounds and 0.9 pounds, for instance, and between 0.6 euros and 1.6 euros, etc.). As I explained before, use another currency that the dollar to make the computations, and your inflation adjusted list will change a lot.
So on that "dollar inflation adjusted worldwide list", FYEO is #16 of the Bond, Octopussy is #20, AVTAK is #22, TLD is #21, and LTK is #23.
Now let's do comparisons that are bit less meaningless because it uses a shorter time period (ie : 1 year).
FYEO not so successful ? #2nd most successful movie of the year 1981 worldwide, the #1 is Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Octopussy not so successful ? #2nd most successful movie of the year 1983 worldwide, the #1 is Star Wars VI. And who was the #4 ? NSNA. 1983, the year of the battle of the Bonds. How can one think it was a low period for Bond in terms of box office ?!
AVTAK not so successful ? #5 most successful movie of the year 1985 worldwide
TLD no so successful ? #4 in 1987
LTK a flop ? #11 in 1989
To compare, CR is said to be very successful, while being "only" #4 of its year, like TND :) And QOS was #7, ah, not as good as AVTAK :) TWINE was #9, DAD was #6, still under AVTAK, and even close to that LTK who is supposed to be so much more below the rest...
The real 'low' period (in the sense of success compared to other movies), is Brosnan, not Moore. Brosnan is even the only Bond that never got a #1 movie in the UK, even Dalton had one (and Lazenby is said to have one, although I wouldn't bet on it, data is non existent it seems).