SPECTRE: Thomas Newman is Back! (appreciation topic)

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  • Posts: 5,767
    The real 'low' period (in the sense of success compared to other movies), is Brosnan, not Moore. Brosnan is even the only Bond that never got a #1 movie in the UK, even Dalton had one (and Lazenby is said to have one, although I wouldn't bet on it, data is non existent it seems).
    And yet Brosnan is a major factor in the financial success of Eon in the 90s, and a cornerstone for the films we can enjoy now. So I say screw success, give me films I enjoy. Egoistic, I know. :-\"

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    @Suivez makes a very good and interesting point, highlighting @Gustav's attempts to push his opinions as some sort of fact. The Bond movies in the 80s were indeed successful and to suggest a Bond movie being too much of a Bond movie and having the Bond theme played more than once equates to an unsuccessful movie is vehemently absurd.
  • boldfinger wrote:
    And yet Brosnan is a major factor in the financial success of Eon in the 90s, and a cornerstone for the films we can enjoy now. So I say screw success, give me films I enjoy. Egoistic, I know. :-\"
    Yes, note the brackets around the "low" (and don't forget I'm not a native English speaker, so don't care much about the subtle tones you may read in my messages, if any, there are there just randomly :) ).

    I happen to know quite some things about the box office AND find all the rankings almost meaningless, this way I can fight the box office ranking aficionados with their own weapons !



  • Posts: 11,119
    doubleoego wrote:
    @Suivez makes a very good and interesting point, highlighting @Gustav's attempts to push his opinions as some sort of fact. The Bond movies in the 80s were indeed successful and to suggest a Bond movie being too much of a Bond movie and having the Bond theme played more than once equates to an unsuccessful movie is vehemently absurd.

    I actually meant to say.......that the mid and late eighties were not Bond at its all time high. The late Moore Bond films were good enough as Bond film. But apart from that, solely as a film, AVTAK wasn't really a good film.

    Yes, TLD and LTK were not unsuccesful. But in comparison to today's Bond films (the Craig era) you cannot deny that financially the films are doing something that we haven't seen in the past -Bond- decades.

    It's also a matter of taste: I prefer a good Bond film....but also a good FILM on the whole. CR and SF gave me the depth and intensity that makes me rewatching them over and over again. And with every watch I find something new. I certainly don't have that with AVTAK.

  • SharkShark Banned
    Posts: 348
    "Severine" is a very good cue. "Modigliani" isn't.

    Why isn't it?
  • Posts: 5,767
    But apart from that, solely as a film, AVTAK wasn't really a good film.
    Just for the record, I vehemently disagree.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Shark wrote:
    "Severine" is a very good cue. "Modigliani" isn't.

    Why isn't it?

    It's just lacking something. The slight reprise of "Severine" is okay but overall there's just nothing memorable about it.
  • Posts: 11,119
    boldfinger wrote:
    But apart from that, solely as a film, AVTAK wasn't really a good film.
    Just for the record, I vehemently disagree.


    We are also here to share our different opinions no ;-)?

    To be honest.....I loved Christopher Walken as Bond villain. He's the same kind of psychotic as Silva. Also the looks from May Day could have made from her the next Rosa Klebb/Fiona Volpe. Instead....the writers decided to make her a 'nice girl' in the end. Pity....pity.

    Regarding the storyline......well, if NSNA is a remake of TB, then AVTAK is certainly the closest of being an official remake...of GF. That lack of originality....irritated me. Not to mention the Guy Hamilton-esque cheesy car chase in San Fransisco. Plain stupid and laughable. I prefer to see the late Leslie Nielsen 'dance' on a firetruck than Roger Moore.

    Ah.....Sir Roger Moore. I think Sean Connery looked fresher, younger in NSNA than Moore did in AVTAK.

    My favourite Moore films:
    01) For Your Eyes Only (back to basics)
    02) Octopussy (nice Cold War thriller)
    03) The Spy Who Loved Me (typical Lewis Gilbert Bond film. As big and majestic as YOLT. But as good?)
    04) Live And Let Die
    05) The Man With The Golden Gun
    06) Moonraker
    07) A View To A Kill

    Anywayyyy.........opinions opinions opinions hehehe :-P.
  • edited June 2013 Posts: 2,015
    But in comparison to today's Bond films (the Craig era) you cannot deny that financially the films are doing something that we haven't seen in the past -Bond- decades.
    Of course you can ! Just check the facts. TSWLM/MR/FYEO/OP/AVTAK/TLD : in 12 years, they made 6 movies that all were in the top #5 worldwide, including 2 #2 and 1 #1. They all made between 5 and 10 times their budget (a rough estimate but I think it's a good one). The Craig era for the moment has half the movies, and on average I think about half the return of investment of the 80's movies. And if you add NSNA to the mix, this could be the decade we'll never see again from that point of view.



  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited June 2013 Posts: 4,043
    AVTAK is utter tosh seriously only a Bond fan could excuse that embarrassment of an entry.

    Some of you just excuse any old rubbish because it has James Bond attached to it, nostalgia is one thing but trying to say this film is anything but not very good ( that's putting it mildly) is sheer fan boy blindness.
  • edited June 2013 Posts: 5,767
    Shardlake wrote:
    AVTAK is utter tosh seriously only a Bond fan could excuse that embarrassment of an entry.

    Some of you just excuse any old rubbish because it has James Bond attached to it, nostalgia is one thing but trying to say this film is anything but not very good ( that's putting it mildly) is sheer fan boy blindness.
    Completely disagree, since I massively oppose the concept of nostalgia, yet, anytime I watch AVTAK, I can seriously enjoy it.




    For all of those who explain that having a score with themes is a thing of a past, and that people thinking that should grow up from easy action movie music. Here's what a highly regarded movie music writer said in an interview :

    "It’s probably wrong to think that a character needs a melody associated with him or her, but oftentimes it does and in the case of Bond it does more often than not."
    I´ve been listening quite a lot to the soundtrack from Iron Man 3 lately. While Brian Tyler is certainly a matter of taste, and I´m not sure I would suggest him at this time for a Bond film, he has a lot of one particular theme in this score, and it doesn´t sound dated or old-fashioned in the least.


    Ah.....Sir Roger Moore. I think Sean Connery looked fresher, younger in NSNA than Moore did in AVTAK.
    Maybe Moore looked older, but not less fresh.
    Moore´s Bond in AVTAK was a motivating example of how much an old geezer still can do physically. A fresh counterpoint to youthism, showing that people don´t necessarily have to get weak and sick when they age.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited June 2013 Posts: 8,205


    [/quote]I´ve been listening quite a lot to the soundtrack from Iron Man 3 lately. While Brian Tyler is certainly a matter of taste, and I´m not sure I would suggest him at this time for a Bond film, he has a lot of one particular theme in this score, and it doesn´t sound dated or old-fashioned in the least.
    [/quote]

    That's what makes it the best of the Marvel scores thus far, for me.
  • Posts: 2,158
    I agree with the topic, Newman back, definately.

    Skyfall's soundtrack is great. There are some great individual tracks in there and they all suit the film perfectly. For a composer who has never really done an action score, well, ever, I though he did a fine job.

    There is a but... though.

    Next time he needs more involvement with the title song. Having it only pop up in the soundtrack once, as a token effort, isn't good.

    Also, theres a lack of any real unifying theme between the tracks. Theyre all great individually, and I suppose the Bond theme ties them together a little bit. Solving the first issue should solve this though.

    No one masters anything the first time they do it. I'm sure thats the case here.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Mallory wrote:
    I agree with the topic, Newman back, definately.

    Skyfall's soundtrack is great. There are some great individual tracks in there and they all suit the film perfectly. For a composer who has never really done an action score, well, ever, I though he did a fine job.

    There is a but... though.

    Next time he needs more involvement with the title song. Having it only pop up in the soundtrack once, as a token effort, isn't good.

    Also, theres a lack of any real unifying theme between the tracks. Theyre all great individually, and I suppose the Bond theme ties them together a little bit. Solving the first issue should solve this though.

    No one masters anything the first time they do it. I'm sure thats the case here.

    This, I do agree with. Solve the issue of the title theme and create a unified melody to unite the whole score, and I'll have no problem with Newman coming back.
  • Ah.....Sir Roger Moore. I think Sean Connery looked fresher, younger in NSNA than Moore did in AVTAK.
    It may have something to do with Sean Connery being half a decade younger while shooting NSNA than Roger Moore while shooting AVTAK !

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Eh? Connery has always looked more mature than Moore but looked better in NSNA than Moore did in AVTAK.
  • doubleoego wrote:
    Eh? Connery has always looked more mature than Moore
    One of the piece of trivia that puzzles the more the non fans is that Moore is older than Connery, while "everybody" thinks that after Connery they went for someone younger.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Ah.....Sir Roger Moore. I think Sean Connery looked fresher, younger in NSNA than Moore did in AVTAK.
    It may have something to do with Sean Connery being half a decade younger while shooting NSNA than Roger Moore while shooting AVTAK !

    Sir Sean Connery: Born, August 25 1930, currently aged 82
    Sir Roger Moore: Born, October 14 1927, currently aged 85

    When Connery was shooting NSNA, he was 52
    When Connery was shooting AVTAK, he was 57

    That is indeed half a decade younger.......but is 5 years difference making so much difference? You make it sound as if those 5 years are the difference between being alive or ordering a coffin :-).
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited July 2013 Posts: 4,509
    I´ve been listening quite a lot to the soundtrack from Iron Man 3 lately. While Brian Tyler is certainly a matter of taste, and I´m not sure I would suggest him at this time for a Bond film, he has a lot of one particular theme in this score, and it doesn´t sound dated or old-fashioned in the least.
    [/quote]

    That's what makes it the best of the Marvel scores thus far, for me.[/quote]

    I did. http://bondandbeyond.forumotion.com/t639-replacing-david-arnold
    Subject: Re: Replacing David Arnold Mon 22 Aug 2011 - 12:37
    Since China and India confirmd i think about Brian Tyler http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0003911/ as replacement. Mabey with help of David Arnold. The composer of Children of Dune and one of the tracks he made for this mini series is yused for a Dutch/Belgium creation traveling game program.

    From Law Abiding Citizen sound a bit like QOS

    But there mabey be to much Con's:

    American
    Thriller composer / to much silence. See Law Abiding Citizen. Bond scores need more silence, but this is to much.

    Battle: Los Angeles Sound a bit to techno - Die Another Day to me.
    The composer of Fast 5. Whyle i must see this sound good because it sound a bit like David Arnold QOS.
    The composer of Rambo 4. With Daniel Craig playing Bond this can be problem.

    There stil be some quistions or Bryan Tyler left or be a good replacement of David Arnold. David Arnold is very good in subtil things but i get the feeling he need new inspiration. What i like to see is less techo, more silence music, more outside subtil music. Liked the subtil TMWTGG Violin for QOS. For Bond 23 and Bond 25 (I like to see for Bond 25 there go to Egypt and Switzerland.) i like to heard more warm music. If you replace the soundmixer of CR, no techno and put down the music a litle bit (more silence) i think a part of the Madgascar music is CR is close to what i mean for some scene's and QOS is more what i like to hear for Bond 25. in general i prefer his music for QOS above CR. QOS music is my second favorite David Arnold score (after Twine) because it finaly have some changes.

    --

    I think about it because i whas one of those people who before offical confirmd Skyfall go to China and my expections be more of QOS setting. Bryan Tayler composed Dune tv series who's theme is used for Belgium/Dutch program who visit places i think Bond going to visit too in Bond 23 or Bond 24. India, China, Tibet and Russia. This road/train trip start in Russia, break Tibet & India and end in China/Peking. There be remour that scene from DAF playing in train going to be used (Where Bond re-meet Felix.) and India whas remour to be a location of Bond 24. QOS end in Russia and before that the Train guy. One + One situtation. Dreamt a bit Bond going to follow this road jump out of the train and going to find his soul back and movie tell something about where China stay those days in the world. Some kind of 007 in Tibet. I realy thinking P&W uncredit hint this in Johnny English Reborn as kind of preview.

    But it is 2 years later now and we have Thomas Newman and if he and Sam Mendes wil make now more a movie who is closer to QOS and Jarhead. David Arnold whas very good with those Aasian hints in the score of QOS and Newman did this a bit with middle east sound, but faild a bit in my opnion with Macau who i also blame to it whas to short. Peking opening whas better.

  • Posts: 12,837
    It's also a matter of taste: I prefer a good Bond film....but also a good FILM on the whole.

    I'm sorry but isn't this essentially the same thing? A Bond film is still a film, so what's the difference.

    Let's look at TLD. Top notch performances, good cold war story with good characterisation, brilliant score, good locations, amazing stuntwork, etc.

    How is that not a good film?
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 11,119
    It's also a matter of taste: I prefer a good Bond film....but also a good FILM on the whole.

    I'm sorry but isn't this essentially the same thing? A Bond film is still a film, so what's the difference.

    Let's look at TLD. Top notch performances, good cold war story with good characterisation, brilliant score, good locations, amazing stuntwork, etc.

    How is that not a good film?

    Hmm, not for me. In my opinion a big half of all Bond films are not very good films. Still, these films have a great deal of typical Bond elements that make me, as a fanboy, happy!

    For instance 'Moonraker' and 'Tomorrow Never Dies'. Especially when I was younger I liked them. Mainly because the easy-to-understand, rather outdated, cheesy executed storyline, great Bond-esque music scores, wunderful locations and memorable action sequences (parking garage car chase TND and parachute jump MR).

    For me it is one of the reasons why, in a way, 'Tomorrow Never Dies' and 'Moonraker' are for me great popcorn movies, lovely 'typical', 'predicatable' Bond flicks. But IMO they are certainly not critically acclaimed high-quality films. When I want to dig further in the contents of these films, theme-wise.....I just cannot find too much contents.

    Having said that, for me the following Bond films are both critically acclaimed high-quality films as well as fantastic James Bond films / popcorn films:
    --> 'From Russia With Love': An older, butch, lesbian woman called Rosa Klebb, having 'her kicks' on 007, punching a hitman like hell and screaming at the leading Bond girl while using a whip! Well, that was something back in 1963! By the way, Fleming based his story loosely on a decoding machine that really existed: The Enigma device from WW II.
    --> 'On Her Majesty's Secret Service': Ordinary cinema audiences, hence, even critical cinema audiences, were stunned about the ending of the film. Bond marrying? Then killing off her wife? That's 'not Bond'!! Well, we live in 2013 now. Well, it's a good example of 'not reading the novels properly'! Now it's 2013 and OHMSS aged like a very good wine. Also....to see Bond in shambles, almost in tears after Tracy is being killed......or the wedding proposal in the barn....those scenes were difficult and add gravita to the characters. Connery should have wished he could have done this film.
    --> 'For Your Eyes Only': For Moore obviously this was the most uncomfortable Bond-experience as he had to kick of a henchman in his car from a cliff. Allthough it's not Moore's style, it worked, hell it worked. Having no mercy is what Bond is about at times.....and seeing that from an actor called Roger Moore is even more refreshing. And then we haven't talked about the best torture scene in a Bond film until Craig gets beaten by a rope.
    --> 'The Living Daylights': No PTS enjoyed me more than the one from TLD. A small FRWL-esque vibe was added, because the audience is made to believe that SMERSH is revived. The fact that Bond is on a training mission is refreshing and adds realism to the PTS. Sadly in 'GoldenEye' they more or less copied the essence of this PTS. We also haven't seen a real-life defection before in a Bond film (which later turns out to be staged). But the way the KGB is watching both Koskov and Kara is very much a realistic cold war element (Watch the German spy drama 'The Life Of Others'),
    --> 'Casino Royale': Until 2002, until Brosnan, the final scenes were all about 'Bond bedding the girl'. In 'Casino Royale' we are being treated on delicious, well-crafted characters. Whereas Tracy at first was a psychologically unstable girl that evolved in a wunderful vibrant woman, with Vesper this is the other way around. Vesper is being introduced as a 'woman with style and verbal balls', but turns out to be a woman with a double agenda and a not so stable psyche that eventually commits suicide. Wunderful!! On the whole the film's theme is about today's world of terrorism...andddd about disappointment! Hence Bond's reaction: "The bitch is dead!"
    --> 'Skyfall': Like OHMSS and CR, 'Skyfall' is another gem that is both a perfect Bond film as well as a perfect spy thriller on the whole. It adds something to the film, that is heavily criticised by today's Bond fans: Going back to Bond's past. It's a hefty and difficult task to add some of Bond's childhood in a film. Has never been done before. But it is executed so nicely and with great nuance, that I can only be happy. 'Skyfall' means the end of a loose trilogy where 007, 'M', 'Q' and Moneypenny are being thoroughly introduced. Something Cubby Broccoli and Saltzman did not have time for back in 1962: They had to score immediately with the easiest Bond story....'Doctor No'. And I haven't even talked about the theme here: How to deal with modern day espionage. Or who is actually the leading Bond girl in this film?? It makes 'Skyfall' rather unique.

    As you can see.........the above six films make me write much more :-). But it tells something from my point of view. These six films show more realism, have more depth and are not only a 'typical Bond film with Q gadgets that ends up in a scene where Bond and the girl are having sex'. For me they are the more.....daring Bond entries. OHMSS received a lot of criticism....we all know how well the film has aged. I see something similar with 'Skyfall'. Time will tell how 'classic' these 6 films will become :-).
  • Posts: 7,653
    So the discussion in this thread moved away from the Newman music to which Bondmovies are the best.

    There have been other threads doing that before.

    Newman again simply because he can add something new yet while DA has shown in several attempts that his music is basic but nothing special. I would like the Bondmovies to have great music again, and special.
  • I read once here by someone rather arrogant (not GG but another "Bond movies should be good movies first") that if a Bond film was written by "simplistic" fans (because they are the clever ones), it would feature Bond using every imaginable means of transport in some exotic location. And then came the PTS of Skyfall, with a chase in Istanbul, on feet, on car, on moto, on train, on digger, and even some base jump :) And yet they find this movie clever now.

    So I don't trust the listing of details when we all know the overall feeling of the movie will decide whether or not such and such details will be judged anecdotical, or a major failure. Take any plothole in Skyfall or OHMSS or FRWL, I'm sure "it would have been silly if it had happened in DAF".

    Same apply for Newman's score IMO. It seems many like it mostly because it's linked to Skyfall, and not on its own merit. Even on movie score reviews, it's not even part of Newman's best.



  • Posts: 7,653
    Same apply for Newman's score IMO. It seems many like it mostly because it's linked to Skyfall, and not on its own merit. Even on movie score reviews, it's not even part of Newman's best.

    And in my humble opinion it is a step from DA's recent attempts, I for one would like to see that the series gets a boost of quality in the music department after John Barry and a host of one-off composers have made the soundtracks soemthing special I feel we have been cheated out of the quality in recent movies in favor of bland elevator music. Perhaps JB did put the bar so high that nobody will ever touch it again?

  • Posts: 11,119
    Bring him back please.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited January 2014 Posts: 24,157
    I'm rather okay with both the suggestion of another Newman score and the suggestion of another Arnold score. If they bring back Newman, I won't complain. The SF score has grown to me.
  • Posts: 11,119
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I'm rather okay with both the suggestion of another Newman score and the suggestion of another Arnold score. If they bring back Newman, I won't complain. The SF score has grown to me.

    In my opinion, Newman's music sounds much more 'richer' and 'multi-layered' than Arnold's scores. Arnold basically 'invades' your ears at once. But afterwards, his tracks seem a bit bland to me. As if he's clearly not conducting the parts himself. As if he's doing the work with a too small orchestra and over-extensive use of electronical music.

    Newman IMO is way more subtle....and mixes every instrument, every electronical music part and the talents of each member of the orchestra (R.I.P. Derek Watson) together to the best multi-layered Bond score since John Barry's 'The Living Daylights'.

    IF Newman doesn't return, I hope for another Oscar-heavy music composer. David Arnold lately isn't doing anything interesting. Except some TV work. As if he's OK with the fact that he's rich now....
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited January 2014 Posts: 4,509
    He is writing the music for The Good Dinosaur for 2015 (Release date: 25 November 2015) and expect but not confirmd yet to return for Finding Dory for 2016. On earlier he finished with The Good Dinosaur in June 2015.

    Steven Price http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1888527/ change wil be bigger now he going to make change on a Bafta, a English price! and get Oscar nomination too for Gravity. He also composed The World's End & Atack The block.

    2 Music tracks from Atack The Block

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY2QWYPSeIs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke36NhM4W-g

    Sound a bit TMND / Twine / Skyfall in my opnion..

    As said composer tread: Steven Price also be music editor work for some movies like Johny English Reborn (Chacter by P&W), Batman Begins and Lord of the rings Trilogy or additional music. What i vergot to at there is that also be music editor of Paul (Composed by David Arnold) and action movie A Man Apart.

    With Skyfall Newman get help from Bill Bernstein as music editor (who work before on other Newman and Mendes movies.) and Steven Bernstein for the additional music, but if Newman not return then atleast Bill Bernstein no longer needed. Steven Price can do both and mabey all three.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    edited January 2014 Posts: 1,261
    Sure they can bring him back. I quite liked SKYFALL. Funny, how many people were so overzealous to get David Arnold out and welcomed Newman as the saviour of the Bond Musci franchise. And apparently some of them felt letd down badly by Newman's score. I also would not mind Arnold to return, maybe in Bond 25. Or bring on the much hailed Michael Giacchino.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 824
    David Arnold introduced a showing of You Only Live Twice at BFI SouthBank on 23rd January. The interviewer said, 'You've scored five Bond films now but Sam Mendes has a strong working relationship with Thomas Newman. Would you do another Bond score if asked?. Arnold said 'In a hearbeat' but didn't dispute the Mendes/Newman strong relationship or give any indication that he might be doing Bond 24.

    In my own mind,it is definitely Newman who will be doing Bond 24 which IMO is very positive. Maybe Arnold will return in the post Mendes Bond universe!.

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