SPECTRE: Thomas Newman is Back! (appreciation topic)

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  • edited September 2014 Posts: 6,396
    From the production notes of LTK:

    "Wilson compared the script to Akira Kurosawa's Yojimbo, where a samurai "without any attacking of the villain or its cohorts, only sowing the seeds of distrust, he manages to have the villain bring himself down".

    Wilson freely admitted that the idea of the destruction-from-within aspect of the plot came more from the cinema versions of the Japanese Rōnin tales by Kurosawa"
  • "destruction-from-within aspect"
    OK,it's true - LTK has got this aspect, but I still say, that they made themselves smaller than necessary by linking license to kill to Yojimbo. Actually licensed to kill story is quite sound (with its largest fault being ridiculous uneven).
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 2,599
    In terms of the music, while I think Newman is a superior composer to Arnold, the only Bond soundtracks I can listen to from start to finish and remain entertained and not get a little to greatly bored (depending on whose Bond score it is) are George Martin's excellent and underrated 'Live and Let Die' score and John Barry's wonderful soundtracks.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,119
    Bounine wrote: »
    In terms of the music, while I think Newman is a superior composer to Arnold, the only Bond soundtracks I can listen to from start to finish and remain entertained and not get a little to greatly bored (depending on whose Bond score it is) are George Martin's excellent and underrated 'Live and Let Die' score and John Barry's wonderful soundtracks.

    I must agree with you on that one @Bounine.

    I think I know why that is. One word: Melody. Both George Martin and John Barry created so many themes and melodies apart from the James Bond theme (and "007 theme").

    But it's not fair to blaim either Thomas or David for that lack of melody in their scores. Movie scoring has changed considerably since the 1960's-1990's. Music scores are now only there to add atmosphere to an action sequence. Individually, the scores sound rather...boring. John Barry (and George Martin) had a gift for adding their extra music-feeling to an action sequence.

    Take for instance the scene were Bond's leaving the LA-X Airport in DAF. Without music it sounds a rather boring scene. But with the track "Airport Source" the entrance of those tourists to LA becomes something......special....how weird it may sound. It suddenly turns into one hell of a lush entrance in which Bond suddenly seems to look like another Frank Sinatra, ready to perform a song or two in Vegas.

    The same thing with Roger Moore entereing the Rio-airport in MR (source music "Bond Arrives In Rio"):
    Bond+arriving+Concorde.jpg

    David Arnold doesn't have that gift if you ask me. He didn't have the capability to turn such an ordinary scene in so much more. Or, he only copied some source music that wasn't composed by him. And frankly, the majority of today's composers don't have that gift anymore, give or take a few composers of intense drama movies.

    Thomas Newman....well....he only did one Bond film so far, so there's room to improve for him. One track I loved from Newman "Old Dog, New Tricks" had that bit of lush Barry-esque feeling. But in the end it was decided not to use that track at all....

  • Posts: 11,425
    It's true. We all know Barry was a genius though. His ability to summon atmosphere and character from a minor scene with his compositions is pretty much unrivalled.

    Not all his scores are without faults though. Watching MR the other night, certain parts of the score seemed quite sloppy/clunky to me.

    I do think TLD is one of his masterpieces. If not his best, then one of them. Just works so well on so many levels. I wonder what he would have added to LTK if he'd been able to work on it. Kamen's score is serviceable, but lacks any of the magic that Barry brings to the table. LTK is a mixed bag of a movie for me. I wonder if Barry could have helped elevate it to more a widely recognised classic.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    It's true. We all know Barry was a genius though. His ability to summon atmosphere and character from a minor scene with his compositions is pretty much unrivalled.

    Not all his scores are without faults though. Watching MR the other night, certain parts of the score seemed quite sloppy/clunky to me.

    I do think TLD is one of his masterpieces. If not his best, then one of them. Just works so well on so many levels. I wonder what he would have added to LTK if he'd been able to work on it. Kamen's score is serviceable, but lacks any of the magic that Barry brings to the table. LTK is a mixed bag of a movie for me. I wonder if Barry could have helped elevate it to more a widely recognised classic.

    So what would be your TOP 12 of Barry-Bond-scores?
  • There's no doubt that a Barry score would have improved LTK but it would have still suffered from third rate production values.

    It was a really poor decision by Cubby to up sticks and go to Mexico.
  • There's no doubt that a Barry score would have improved LTK but it would have still suffered from third rate production values.

    It was a really poor decision by Cubby to up sticks and go to Mexico.

    I agree. But I heard John Barry was still a "consulting supervisor" to Michael Kamen....when he was close to being cured from his health problems.
  • There's no doubt that a Barry score would have improved LTK but it would have still suffered from third rate production values.

    It was a really poor decision by Cubby to up sticks and go to Mexico.

    I agree. But I heard John Barry was still a "consulting supervisor" to Michael Kamen....when he was close to being cured from his health problems.

    You heard it where exactly? I've never once seen Barry's name mentioned in association with LTK before.

    The only involvement I've ever heard of Barry having with EON post-TLD is when he recommended David Arnold for the job.
  • Posts: 2,165
    Well my copy of the updated 'The Music of James Bind' arrived.... And pages 245 to 280 were missing. The entire QoS and SF sections... Very disappointed. Looks like a printing error.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Some would count it as a blessing ;)
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 2,599
    Bounine wrote: »
    In terms of the music, while I think Newman is a superior composer to Arnold, the only Bond soundtracks I can listen to from start to finish and remain entertained and not get a little to greatly bored (depending on whose Bond score it is) are George Martin's excellent and underrated 'Live and Let Die' score and John Barry's wonderful soundtracks.

    I must agree with you on that one @Bounine.

    I think I know why that is. One word: Melody. Both George Martin and John Barry created so many themes and melodies apart from the James Bond theme (and "007 theme").

    But it's not fair to blaim either Thomas or David for that lack of melody in their scores. Movie scoring has changed considerably since the 1960's-1990's. Music scores are now only there to add atmosphere to an action sequence. Individually, the scores sound rather...boring. John Barry (and George Martin) had a gift for adding their extra music-feeling to an action sequence.

    Take for instance the scene were Bond's leaving the LA-X Airport in DAF. Without music it sounds a rather boring scene. But with the track "Airport Source" the entrance of those tourists to LA becomes something......special....how weird it may sound. It suddenly turns into one hell of a lush entrance in which Bond suddenly seems to look like another Frank Sinatra, ready to perform a song or two in Vegas.

    The same thing with Roger Moore entereing the Rio-airport in MR (source music "Bond Arrives In Rio"):
    Bond+arriving+Concorde.jpg

    David Arnold doesn't have that gift if you ask me. He didn't have the capability to turn such an ordinary scene in so much more. Or, he only copied some source music that wasn't composed by him. And frankly, the majority of today's composers don't have that gift anymore, give or take a few composers of intense drama movies.

    Thomas Newman....well....he only did one Bond film so far, so there's room to improve for him. One track I loved from Newman "Old Dog, New Tricks" had that bit of lush Barry-esque feeling. But in the end it was decided not to use that track at all....

    Yep, it's all melody. I don't understand why in modern scoring that things have changed so much. Maybe they feel that now days they need more grit in action scenes and having a melody removes that somewhat. As the saying goes, "they don't make em like they use to"!

    I love the Moonraker soundtrack. It's one of my favourites along with TLD and OHMSS. The former has a more unique sound compared to the rest of his Bond soundtracks. Maybe it's because part of the film was set in space. Atmospheric and surreal.

    Yeah, Barry and Martin could really turn what would have otherwise come across as a relatively average scene with other composers, into something special. Bring back "the fifth Beatle" for Bond! He's only 88.
  • I think I know why that is. One word: Melody. Both George Martin and John Barry created so many themes and melodies apart from the James Bond theme (and "007 theme").

    But it's not fair to blaim either Thomas or David for that lack of melody in their scores. Movie scoring has changed considerably since the 1960's-1990's. Music scores are now only there to add atmosphere to an action sequence. Individually, the scores sound rather...boring. John Barry (and George Martin) had a gift for adding their extra music-feeling to an action sequence.

    Take for instance the scene were Bond's leaving the LA-X Airport in DAF. Without music it sounds a rather boring scene. But with the track "Airport Source" the entrance of those tourists to LA becomes something......special....how weird it may sound. It suddenly turns into one hell of a lush entrance in which Bond suddenly seems to look like another Frank Sinatra, ready to perform a song or two in Vegas.

    The same thing with Roger Moore entereing the Rio-airport in MR (source music "Bond Arrives In Rio")...

    David Arnold doesn't have that gift if you ask me. He didn't have the capability to turn such an ordinary scene in so much more. Or, he only copied some source music that wasn't composed by him. And frankly, the majority of today's composers don't have that gift anymore, give or take a few composers of intense drama movies.



    I know, right?! I mean, if only David Arnold could have written something lush and melodic or large and brassy for some of the transitioning/travelogue scenes in his films. You know, something like "Company Car," "Helicopter Ride," "Kowloon Bay," "Welcome to Baku," "Snow Business," "Blunt Instrument," "I'm the Money," "Aston Montenegro," "City of Lovers," "Night at the Opera," "Talamone." Wouldn't that have been something? ;)
  • Nice examples, but also exceptions :-). "Tálamo" for instance is.....nice. But it's too short to compare it with other "source" or "entry-to-a-country" music from Barry.
  • Posts: 2,599
    Arnold has made some nice melodies but they are too short and as for most of his action cues, well, they're just badly composed random collections of noise. "'White Knight'' and ''African Rundown'' are exceptions and maybe a couple of others.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    On the contrary. Arnold has many amazing Action Cues.

    Backseat Driver.
    Countdown to Launch.
    Bike Chase.
    Come in 007 You're time is up.
    Caviar Factory.
    Hovercraft Chase.
    Ice Palace Car Chase.
    Jinx, James and Genes.
    White Out.
    Sword Fight.
    Antonov.
    Stairwell Fight.
    Fall of a House in Venice.
    Time to Get Out.
    Target Terminated.
    Perla de Las Dunas.
  • Posts: 2,599
    Murdock wrote: »
    On the contrary. Arnold has many amazing Action Cues.

    Backseat Driver.
    Countdown to Launch.
    Bike Chase.
    Come in 007 You're time is up.
    Caviar Factory.
    Hovercraft Chase.
    Ice Palace Car Chase.
    Jinx, James and Genes.
    White Out.
    Sword Fight.
    Antonov.
    Stairwell Fight.
    Fall of a House in Venice.
    Time to Get Out.
    Target Terminated.
    Perla de Las Dunas.

    Well, we'll certainly have to agree to disagree on that one. :)
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited September 2014 Posts: 12,480
    I do agree, Murdock. But I'm trying to find appreciation for Newman as this is an appreciation thread. Just to say the man definitely has talent, and I hope he is more into making a great Bond film this time.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Yes, I just hope he ups his game for B24. The SF score was so generic and devoid of anything specific that marked it out as Bond. I don't require endless Barry homages but Bond does require something a little more distinctive. Why take the job if you clearly have no interest.

    Plus, collaborating with the title track composer and artist should be a given on every movie. Last time it worked was on CR. Of course it works best if the person doing the score writes or at the very least contributes to the title theme.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    Yes, I just hope he ups his game for B24. The SF score was so generic and devoid of anything specific that marked it out as Bond. I don't require endless Barry homages but Bond does require something a little more distinctive. Why take the job if you clearly have no interest.

    Plus, collaborating with the title track composer and artist should be a given on every movie. Last time it worked was on CR. Of course it works best if the person doing the score writes or at the very least contributes to the title theme.

    Have you read my entire opening post @Getafix? I am just curious what you thought of that :-). I think after listening a Bond score more often, one can also discover new qualities no? At least I didn't find Newman's score generic.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Well, I just listened to 'Old dog, new tricks' and gotta say I wasn't very impressed...

    I really do think Newman needs to do something a little bit more special for B24 to justify his return.

    If he is returning. Has it been confirmed yet?
  • Posts: 11,119
    I personally think "Shanghai Drive" is a wunderful lush track, in which Newman uses electronic percussion instruments in such a smooth and nuanced way. I loved it.

    "Quartermaster" for me is a favourite too. It also has this almost romantic and mysterious use of electronic percussion as well. It slowly builds up, without too much melody, to a true piece of espionage music.

    In a way, the score for "Skyfall" reminded me of John Barry's score for "From Russia With Love". Both scores depend on atmosphere, rather than straight-in-your face pumping melodies. I liked that for those movies.

    We know how Barry changed its style for "Goldfinger". So who knows what Newman will do for "Bond 24" ;-).

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well, I just listened to 'Old dog, new tricks' and gotta say I wasn't very impressed...

    I really do think Newman needs to do something a little bit more special for B24 to justify his return.

    If he is returning. Has it been confirmed yet?

    I think 'New Digs' is a good track and it works well in the film. Also a fan of 'She's mine' - again it works well in the context of the movie. The trouble for me is that as a whole it feels a little lacking in unity. I feel like it's a collection of different styles and suffers from a lack of the kind of recurring motifs that you would find in a Barry score, or a DA score for that matter. I think he's decent, but I'd like him to up his game and embrace the whole process a little more. I miss the days where title track and score were in perfect harmony. The score is a key ingredient and should be front and centre in a Bond picture.
  • Posts: 11,425
    RC7 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well, I just listened to 'Old dog, new tricks' and gotta say I wasn't very impressed...

    I really do think Newman needs to do something a little bit more special for B24 to justify his return.

    If he is returning. Has it been confirmed yet?

    I think 'New Digs' is a good track and it works well in the film. Also a fan of 'She's mine' - again it works well in the context of the movie. The trouble for me is that as a whole it feels a little lacking in unity. I feel like it's a collection of different styles and suffers from a lack of the kind of recurring motifs that you would find in a Barry score, or a DA score for that matter. I think he's decent, but I'd like him to up his game and embrace the whole process a little more. I miss the days where title track and score were in perfect harmony. The score is a key ingredient and should be front and centre in a Bond picture.

    Apart from me not thinking much of the SF score, I totally agree with you, as I think do most people on here.

    Don't understand why it isn't a condition of every score and title track that they are interwoven. Should be a given on every Bond movie.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm not musically trained or anything, but I do appreciate good music.

    John Barry is my favourite composer. What he did for Bond was absolutely legendary and he went out on 'the high note' with Living Daylights - one of the greatest pieces of movie scoring I've ever heard. Period.

    Thomas Newman did a very good job on Skyfall, and I'd be happy to see him back for Bond 24. His take was fresh and some of his music was very daring and memorable - as well as creative (he was not attempting to copy someone he knew he could not match up to). I recall in particular the pieces played:
    1) when Bond is going into the new Mi6 HQ in the SUV,
    2) all the stuff in China - when he's following Patrice and when he sees Severine for the first time,
    3) the Severine cue,
    4) the bit when they are on the boat looking at Silva's HQ, 4) the bit at the end when he's running on ice chasing Silva.

    For a first shot at it - he did a superb job. George Martin was also phenomenal on LALD. Marvin Hamlisch did some good work on TSWLM (particularly in Egypt - very suspenseful near the pyramids and in particular when Bond walks into a shadowy archway while some muslim morning prayer begins).

    David Arnold has had 5 kicks at the can, and anyone who thinks he is channeling Barry is insulting the maestro. Arnold comes across as a hack and does not hold a candle to Martin or Barry. Heck, he's not even up to the standards of the guy who did the Bourne music. Having said that, he did improve during Craig's run, and the music during the crane sequence in Afria in CR was very good, as was the Opera music in QoS.

    Given the choice, I'd take Newman, because in 1 movie he created more memorable stuff to my ears than Arnold has done in 5.

    I do want more orchestral musci though, a'la Barry, as I think that is Bond's signature. Newman came close with what he did when Severine and Bond were on the boat.. That was majestic and powerful. Also, his Severine cue was better (to my ears) than Arnold's Vesper cue.

    Just my take
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not musically trained or anything, but I do appreciate good music.

    John Barry is my favourite composer. What he did for Bond was absolutely legendary and he went out on 'the high note' with Living Daylights - one of the greatest pieces of movie scoring I've ever heard. Period.

    Thomas Newman did a very good job on Skyfall, and I'd be happy to see him back for Bond 24. His take was fresh and some of his music was very daring and memorable - as well as creative (he was not attempting to copy someone he knew he could not match up to). I recall in particular the pieces played:
    1) when Bond is going into the new Mi6 HQ in the SUV,
    2) all the stuff in China - when he's following Patrice and when he sees Severine for the first time,
    3) the Severine cue,
    4) the bit when they are on the boat looking at Silva's HQ, 4) the bit at the end when he's running on ice chasing Silva.

    For a first shot at it - he did a superb job. George Martin was also phenomenal on LALD. Marvin Hamlisch did some good work on TSWLM (particularly in Egypt - very suspenseful near the pyramids and in particular when Bond walks into a shadowy archway while some muslim morning prayer begins).

    David Arnold has had 5 kicks at the can, and anyone who thinks he is channeling Barry is insulting the maestro. Arnold comes across as a hack and does not hold a candle to Martin or Barry. Heck, he's not even up to the standards of the guy who did the Bourne music. Having said that, he did improve during Craig's run, and the music during the crane sequence in Afria in CR was very good, as was the Opera music in QoS.

    Given the choice, I'd take Newman, because in 1 movie he created more memorable stuff to my ears than Arnold has done in 5.

    I do want more orchestral musci though, a'la Barry, as I think that is Bond's signature. Newman came close with what he did when Severine and Bond were on the boat.. That was majestic and powerful. Also, his Severine cue was better (to my ears) than Arnold's Vesper cue.

    Just my take

    Do you generally like music from Thomas Newman? I'm just curious :-). Personally I do think one of Arnold's best attempts was TWINE. After those his scores dwindled down for me a bit and where not really my favourites.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2014 Posts: 23,883
    [/quote]Gustav_Graves said: Do you generally like music from Thomas Newman? I'm just curious :-). Personally I do think one of Arnold's best attempts was TWINE. After those his scores dwindled down for me a bit and where not really my favourites.[/quote]

    Music is obviously a very personal thing and touches different people differently.

    Personally, I like what Newman tried to do with Skyfall. He brought his own twist and added some interesting elements (particularly in Shanghai and on the track - New Diggs- where Bond is driving with the crew to the new Mi6 headquarters). That does not mean I'm a fan of his necessarily or that I need him to come back. I just like what he did on Skyfall given this was his first effort. There were enough interesting elements there for me to not be averse to his return - as I'm sure he will improve the 2nd time around.

    Regarding Arnold, personally, I much preferred his work on CR and QoS to his Brosnan efforts, although I liked TND also. I just generally found even his best efforts a bit pedestrian for Bond.....not in keeping with such a storied franchise, given that he has scored 5 movies now and is almost considered the in-house score man. I don't think he's worthy of that title and would prefer someone else to take a crack at it.

    As an example, I think Martin's one effort on LALD to be more memorable to all of Arnold's scores.

    This is of course, just my take.
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    As an example, I think Martin's one effort on LALD to be more memorable to all of Arnold's scores.

    Yeah, He was truly marvellous on his single Bond film. I think he tends to get lost a bit in the discussion. He really had a similar melodical quality to John Barry. I always wondered why he wasn't considered for TSWLM.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I was hoping Newman would bring a score with the quality of Wall-E, that's my favorite score of his.
  • Posts: 158
    I find the Examiner review link in the open post quite bizarre…”doesn’t sound like a Bond score”…doesn’t stand on its own”….”no fully realised themes”….”only hear the proper JBT once”

    There’s always a pitfall to reviewing a soundtrack – its not necessarily the full score and to whinge at Mr Newman for not using the theme enough is rather mis-placed – speak to Sony Classical! As for his actual score, there were many more occurrences of it than Arnold’s last 2 films and I never felt he “tossed” it in – it was there where you expected to hear it, he positioned it in the same way as Arnold, like any fan would have.
    And to add, Newman delivered it a fresh way as GG pointed out - sometimes on the violin, sometimes the flute.

    Admittedly I wasn’t blown away by the score when I saw the film initially, with Newman’s pedigree, the expectations were high. However since then I’ve listened to the score a helluva lot and enjoyed it standalone. For the post John Barry era its very Bond and there are many nice reoccurring themes to listen out for. Even though I said at the time this score could have been done by many other composers (it could have even been an Arnold score) I would like Newman to continue, there’s potential for him to step up a gear.

    I believe the pacing of Skyfall and the incredible sound mix helps Newman a lot. QoS would be a tough one for any composer, but those action scenes are so ferocious, Anrold’s music barely registers over the gunfire at times. I will have to do a full breakdown of these scores but there’s a lot to enjoy from QoS and many reoccurring motifs. By motifs, I mean no more than 6-7 notes which seems to be about as much as a modern action composer can conjure up!

    I would not say that Newman has any kind of upper hand because he can conduct. Nicholas Dodd is a top class conductor and orchestrator and not even Barry always done his own orchestration in the later years. Its just quite simply, Barry was an exception to the rule, he had a great network of musicians and worked hard with them to get specific sounds.

    With regards to composers getting involved with the title songs, a lot of you guys would benefit from reading Jon Burlingame’s Music of James Bond as it documents how there was a shift in the industry by the mid 80’s and even the maestro himself could not assert full control. In terms on Newman and Skyfall, the fault lies with the producers and director. They could have scheduled it so the artists worked together but did not – everyone was signed up and on-board in plenty of time. If a director insists the composer does the song (TWINE) then it happens – the producers like to keep them happy. Mendes insisted the film had the original DB5 – shame he didn’t add conditions to the theme as well. It’s lucky Newman was able to accommodate their late request so neatly into Bond’s moment of resurrection.

    It’s very hit and miss now if that happens, even when it does (CR successfully did) you generally don’t hear it for long enough, its not ingrained into you like it is in the Barry scores. Its just typical of modern action film scoring and editing…. short, sharp bursts of audio and visual. I’ve given up holding out for a score that uses the Barry/GF template and is of the quality of TLD – its an era that’s well and truly past, stylistically and (studio) politically.

    A couple of other links people might find interesting:


    http://www.examiner.com/article/celebrating-50-years-of-james-bond-with-composer-round-table-part-1
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