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Well, it is written with that purpose...
Completely agree. I also think it's a matter of taste. I agree Newman isn't a John Barry. But what Newman did with electronical percussion IMO is just marvellous. The electronical music on the score is so warm and full of reserved rhytmns. Especially how Newman and his buddy Simon Rhodes mixed it with the orchestral music really made me happy. Simon Rhodes really needs to be mentioned here. His mixing makes the score sound su warm, nuanced and rich. Full of texture so to say. I kinda miss that with the scores from David Arnold.
An example. The track "Voluntary Retirement". From 55 sec's to 1min05sec's it "echos" out so wunderfully, and then at 1min06 sec's this simply marvellous electronic percussion (that made Newman actually quite recognizable) kicks in. It's soft, gentle, but so full of fast rhytmn. It builds up....and at the same time we here wunderful violin/strings arrangements that go up, and down, up and down.
David Arnold couldn't do it like that....sorry. He only worked with electronic music during big brassy action sequences. Also, I have the feeling that in general David Arnold uses more horns in his orchestra.
I gracefully disagree. I listen to Arnold's music on it's own quite a bit. Very fun to listen too on car rides too.
Arnold's work on Independence Day and Godzilla is better than anything Newman has ever composed.
Well well, look who the cat dragged in ;-). Mr @CraigMooreOHMSS. Please listen to this:
Thomas Newman: "End Title", track from the score from "Little Children":
Thomas Newman: "Steady The Buffs", track from the score from "The Iron Lady":
Thomas Newman: "Dead Already", track from the score from "American Beauty":
Thomas Newman: "April", track from the score from "Revolutionary Road":
And then, Thomas Newman completely re-invented himself, by doing a first real action score....for James Bond 007 in "Skyfall". Enigmatic, gripping, with truly marvellous string sections and magnificent nuanced use of eletronic percussion:
"Enquiry" (0:47 sec's, marvellous):
"The Bloody Shot" (same wunderful action-oriented beats):
And for the more romantic Bond fans, who prefer to get goosebumps:
"Mother" (majestic, slightly "The Iron Lady"-esque):
"Severine" (TMWTGG-esque, mysterious, lush):
"Deep Water" (wunderfully echoed piece of music, FRWL-esque):
So excuse me, but Thomas Newman is at leastttttt slightly, 1%, better than David Arnold's work on "Godzilla" or "Independence Day".
But he didn't completely reinvent himself with Skyfall, unfortunately. Putting it in bold doesn't really make your point any truer. It was the same old Newman-esque atmosphere that's not suitable for Bond in the slightest. Newman's refusal to work with the title song, as others pointed out before, was what made Skyfall little more than acceptable.
You see, Barry did more than just compose music for Bond. He established a trend of pop music blending with classical instrumentation to create something that stood out amongst other film scores (the track from Goldfinger, "Oddjob's Pressing Engagement" is the prime example of this). Arnold carried on that tradition, and he did it pretty damn well. Newman hasn't.
Arnold's work on Godzilla is as layered as anything Newman did. Whether you choose to ignore it or not, is up to you. There's a reason Arnold was at one point labelled as a possible successor to John Williams as thee blockbuster composer, but unfortunately professional relationships got in the way, leaving him with only the Bond flicks. There's a reason the End Titles cue from Independence Day is played so often at gala concerts alongside the great cues of the past 60/70 years. It's because Arnold is a bloody good composer.
I'd love to throw a tonne of examples up, but unfortunately I'm on a mobile device.
Nice to see our debate is as healthy as ever, though. You argue your points well.
Its not for Tom Newman to place Epworth’s composition throughout his score, just like it wouldn’t be for D Arnold.
Whatever the reason it's a major flaw in the SF score.
In this interview Newman says that he had had a meeting with the producers and it was their suggestion to use the Adele theme during Bond's entrance to the Casino. Newman doesn't seem particularly annoyed in the interview and happily talks about it's inclusion, everything would seem to suggest he scored the moment. Also when discussing the Bond theme Newman seems more than happy to have to had incorporated it.
Any suggestion Newman was unhappy working on SF is grossly exaggerated and most likely utterly untrue. I saw the guy at the premiere of the movie and he seemed overjoyed. He'll be back.
It may not be true, but I definitely read somewhere on here that he had nothing to do with the scoring and orchestration of the reference to Adele's song. I heard that he left it to his right hand man to integrate the title song theme into that part of the score.
If the failure to include Adele's song more widely was actually just down to sheer lazyness or just the failure to actually consider it as an option, then that's even worse and reflects as badly on Newman as if he'd simply refused. If he knew anything about Bond music he'd know that the best scores have the title theme worked into the score throughout the movie.
Just disappointing all round. They had so long to get SF right and to fail on such a basic and easily addressed point as this reflects badly on everyone involved.
You could say the fingers point to the producers and Mendes. Yes, it wouldn't have been hard for Newman to collaborate with Epworth but its not his decision to make. If Mendes had done what Apted did with Arnold, Black & Garbage, gotten them together earlier on in the schedule then something more may have come out of it. But even then, and as the producers have said before- there is a royalty issue and certainly studio politics.
See my post on p7 for comments, but for anyone to now expect any Bond composer to integrate a theme they at least have not co-written would be completely unrealistic. The days an artist will just rock up and sing the song are well and truly over.
I think it's going to depend on the artist. There are singer song-writers and those who have more creative input into their material and there are singers who turn up and sing the song. Certainly someone like Adele is going to have more control over the song, but you'd also think that if approached in the right way she'd be open to the theme being integrated into the score.
Barry was collaborating in the 80s - with Duran Duran, A-ha and the Pretenders. Seemed to work pretty well back then. I appreciate things will have changed and probably artists are more protective of their creative input, but that just requires the right contract to be in place. Something that clearly stipulates the title theme can be integrated into the rest of the score. Frankly, if the title track artist doesn't agree to that then they should not get the job in the first place. In fact, they should be required to collaborate with the composer.
I think Arnold managed to do this a bit better, but he has a pop background and more contacts amongst artists and a lot of experience collaborating with singers.
Either way, it should not beyong EON to find some way to resolve this.
I'm frustrated about the song as much as you and many others, but looking at the timeline of events and quotes out there it would be unjust to blame T Newman at all in this case. If you "definitely read somewhere", "heard" something then I would like references, otherwise get off the guys case.
The industry has changed a lot since the 80's and the turning point was just after those Barry collaborations. As you say, sometimes all the planets will align and it works out (CR) other times it will not (TND, QoS etc).
Unfortunately EON can not resolve this. They don't fund the films, the studio does so I think you'll find they have a say over certain aspects and the song plays a big part of the promotion.
Arnold did it with CR after a disappointing score for DAD, so I won't write Newman off just yet. It'd be especially nice considering it'll probably be his last score, given that Mendes probably won't do another Bond film.
However every artist has an off-perfomance or a crappy album, and I assume he'll be given more time and should come up with a much improved 2nd outing - he's just too good not to.
More organic themes, with brass & strings are needed, in my opinion. He doesn't have to copy John Barry, but take some inspiration from the man, please...
It's difficult to embrace someone if you don't particularly like their work.
I just looked through his filmography and I've seen a fair few of his films. I have to say that I don't remember the score for any of them, in the sense that with none of those films do I remember thinking, 'wow' the score really added something special for me there. Often, that's actually not a bad thing. A serviceable, low-key score that just does its job has a lot to be said for it. I have no doubt that Newman is more than competent.
I just think Bond requires more than that. More personality and a little special something extra.
I appreciate you don't like Arnold, but I personally thought his work on CR and QoS was pretty good.
I am sure there are other composers who could do a better job than both these guys, but right now, given a choice between the two, it would be Arnold every time.
No doubt your 'taste' is impeccable, old boy. Only the finest wines and all that. May I hazard a guess that you wear a cravat and a monacle, as you recline on your Chesterfield sofa, leafing through the Mail on Sunday?
Sure Mr Barry would have agreed with you, bearing in mind his famous statement:
'Subtlety's not a virtue in a Bond film'.
But then again, what did that guy know about scoring Bond movies?
This basically sums it up to me. A Bond score should be in your face, whether it's pulsating, majestic, romantic... it should accentuate rather than complement.
I totally agree, and it should be across the board, both in action scenes and in small, intimate scenes. Arnold was great at the intimate scene, and Newman was not. Perfect example for me in Skyfall was the casino scene in Macau. When Bond and Sevrine first begin to talk, not only is there not a playful or Bondian-theme playing in the background, there's no music playing at all. Newman failed to manipulate the mood in so many places, which is what the score of a film is for after all, and Arnold was perfect at that.
Nono, not that. I meant to say "It's a matter of taste!" Sorry, not my intention to be a snobbish.
Another "matter of taste". Louis Armstrong's "We Have All The Time In The World" is one of my most favourite.Bond songs ever. It's not so 'straight in your face' as "Goldfinger", but at least it made OHMSS in the most romantically resonant Bond film to date. Slightly more than CR.
It's not just a matter of taste; WHATTITW is objectively one of the most beautiful songs in the world.
Beautiful as it is, I don't think WHALTTITW is particularly subtle. It's pretty full on heart-string-tugging Barry. It might not be bombastic like GF or TB, but it certainly massively accentuates the whole love story in OHMSS. It's essentially cheese - very high quality, enjoyable cheese, but cheese all the same.
That's why it suits Bond. Bond is a mix of the fantastical and the real. It's reality turned up to 11. Barry got that totally from the start and knew the music could be a little OTT, even cheesy at times, becuase that suited the stories that were being told. Now I'm not a fan of SF, but I acknowledge it achieves that slightly campy OTT thing that defines a lot of Bond, but the score just pretends it's a totally different type of movie. It doesn't really (as @RC7 says) 'accentuate' what's going on on screen. Totally fine in some movies, but in a Bond film that's a fail. My view any way. Bond requires more than just polite, undistracting background noise.