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Yeah, cheesy music it is, when we hear Barry's WHATTITW theme during that gripping moment where we see Track's face shot straight in her forehead, blood slowly flowing out. Perhaps the scene isn't subtle, but the music is. Only when the Bond theme kicks in the subtlety is gone.
I think from the perspective of instrument choice and orchestration WHATTITW is very subtle, jazzy and slow paced. The melody perhaps is more clear, more memorable, therefore slightly less subtle.
In any case, we are two very different breeds of Bond fans @Getafix :-P.
But it's indelible - tonally and emotionally it grabs you by the balls. You remember it from the very first moment you hear it. When I say 'in your face', I'm alluding to the idea of some one or some thing doing it's utmost to make sure you take notice. I think ATTITW does this in spades.
Exactly.
Good songs always grab you by the balls. I am talking about the subtle orchestration and choice of music. By your standards all of Barry's work lacks subtlety then. Take for instance "Out Of Africa". What works with Barry were his melodies: while always utterly memorable, at times also written with subtlety.
You're putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. Barry does subtlety just fine, what he doesn't do is blandness. Subtlety isn't being quiet or unassuming, it's being ingenious and original in inventive ways, delivering something nuanced, that can be loud and brash or subdued, but emotional. All his cues are memorable and definitive.
Perhaps my English sucks :-). The Dutch word for "subtle" is "subtiel". And "subtiel" means something like "fijnzinnig" or "verfijnd". Translated back to English it means......."delicate", "refined" or indeed "subtle" or "with subtlety".
Having said that, I think the song "WHATTITW" for me is one of the most subtle Bond songs ever. Call it my taste. But what Louis Armstrong's song is not is "cheese", and I recall someone saying that. Well, that's all really. And to stay a bit on topic, I think Thomas Newman has that kind of refined class and subtlety in his work. I think more so than David Arnold.
I find Newman's score to be a mixed bag. Good in some spots, bland in others and just plan weird in others that didn't fit in a Bond movie. When I think Bond music, I think of a big bombastic orchestra playing where the music adds weight and dimension to the scene. Barry was able to do that in all the Bond films he scored, even the terrible TMWTGG. Arnold at least tried to follow the template that Barry set in stone, Sure not all of Arnolds efforts are up to task, but he at least tried. I felt like Newman sleepwalked through the Skyfall score. Like a been there done that vibe.
I do agree with many of the posters wanting more from Newman next time. But I'm not going to jump on GG's throat because he wants to use the word subtle and is happy for Newman to return. This is after all an appreciation for Newman thread.
I won't be saying much on it, therefore. Except that the guy has the experience and talent to do Bond music well in the future if he listens to the advice he has (apparently) been given during and since Skyfall. I doubt Mendes will have someone else be the composer, so I'm trying to keep an open mind re Newman's return. Surely, he could improve with this next one.
I think if you look at Newman's body of work, and there are doubtless good scores in there (just none that ever particularly stood out for me, apart from perhaps American Beauty), then I think it's difficult to see him ever doing a stand out Bond score. That's not to say he lacks talent or isn't a capable composer, just that some people are not suited to every task. But with Mendes helming it seems inevitable that he'll ask Newman back. I guess it will depend on whether Newman wants to do it - the dearth of inspiration he seems have suffered from while scoring SF suggests that he might perhaps not be all that keen. Why return to something that didn't really fire you up first time round?
And I guess there is also the possibility that Mendes feels the SF score wasn't really up to scratch either. Here's hoping someone else gets a crack at it. I cannot see Mendes ever turning to Arnold, so it would be nice to try someone else.
Did anyone say it was objective?
Has anyone heard Newman's music for The Judge? Works really well in the film and outside of it, too.
The same 'professional film composers' who snubbed Barry for decades. Of course you have to acknowledge the views of professionals, but by the same token, I don't think many people take the Oscars as an objective barometer of artisitic merit. They're highly political and pretty hit and miss in terms of what they recognise and what they don't. The fact (correct me if I'm wrong) that a Barry Bond score was never once even nominated, and Newman's first effort gets a nomination, reflects as badly on the 'Academy' as it reflects well on Newman, IMO.
There is nothing political about the "technical" categories. It's a fact that if Newman's score was that terrible it would not have received a nomination. It even won a BAFTA for Christ's sake!
I'm just trying to stay a bit more positive because this is supposed to be an appreciation thread. :D
In my opinion, Newman's strongest work appears during the Shanghai/Macau segment of the film. "Brave New World" explodes ferociously over that sweeping overhead view of the city. "Shanghai Drive" appropriately blends electronics with something resembling East Asian instrumentation while building toward that mysterious, foreboding sound that defines much of the overall voice of the film. "Jellyfish" (Dark Knight-esque though it may be) is quite possibly Newman's finest work here; the track builds the tension of the scene perfectly while complimenting the lovely, surreal visuals of the pulsating jellyfish. "Modigliani" and "Severine" are both gorgeous—understated, haunting, full of mystery and a kind of dark beauty—though alas, all too brief. I can't fault Newman's ominous yet luxurious variation on Adele and Epworth's "Skyfall" theme in "Komodo Dragon" either. And "Chimera" memorably channels Barry's big Bondian sound alongside a modern cymbal beat that amounts to one foreboding journey over the sea.
"Quartermaster," "Tennyson/Enquiry," and especially "She's Mine" (with its grand Thunderball-esque statement of the James Bond theme) stand out as fun, energetic action tracks that still maintain the grimmer, harder-edged tone of the film.
I also like "New Digs" with its funky groove.
So, there's a good amount to enjoy in Skyfall, really. I'll save what I think Newman did wrong and whether I'd like to see him return for another thread. ;)
The Komodo Dragon part, with the hint of Skyfall, is not Newman's doing, though. That is my very favorite piece in the film. But there are some other nice ones, too.
Really? I assumed Newman had written/orchestrated that part upon the request that Adele's "Skyfall" theme be featured somewhere in the film. If Newman didn't do that part, do you know who did? Or do you just mean that it wasn't Newman because the original theme came from Adele and Paul Epworth?
And as this is an appreciation topic: It got nominated for an Oscar. It won a Grammy Award. Again, music is very subjective. And Thomas Newman really divides opinions. There are Bond fans who thought his score was near perfect, spot-on, and also a personal breakthrough for Newman in action scoring. Other Bond fans really thought the score was flawed, lacked "punch" and sounded like tiresome, artyfarty scoring. It's as simple as that.
Michael Wilson had asked where I was going to use the Adele song so that it didn’t appear as a kind of “one off” at the top of the movie. And the scene where he enters the Macau casino with his new, shaved appearance and tuxedo was a real moment of “Bond” swagger. The Adele tune has that quality to it too, so that seemed like a good place to reprieve the song.
Did you have any interaction with Adele or the writers of the song?
While I did not get to meet with Adele, I did with Paul Epworth, who was the co-writer and producer of the song, He really wanted to evoke the early Shirley Bassey arrangements with “Skyfall,” and talked to me about arranging the strings and brass to that effect But my task was already so huge and daunting that my orchestrator J.A.C. Redford, who’s a great composer in his own right, ended up doing the arrangements.
from this website: http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=10217
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Yes, sorry to be going on so re this segment. Some fans absolutely love this soundtrack, I know.
Thanks for the info @4EverBonded :-). Mr Redford is indeed a great orchestrator, making the best choices when it comes to arranging the orchestra, choosing the right nr. and right types of music instruments, co-composing with Newman where necessary.
Have you ever downloaded sheet music, written music, from Mr Thomas Newman? It's quite impressive really. Let's hope Thomas Newman gets even more inspired from the above process.
Also, I'm happy to see how Michael Wilson gives his input. Many fans have heard his soft, tender, empathic criticism during interviews. So it's only normal that an experienced, heavily contracted composer like Newman receives some "franchise directions".
Thanks for that! Somehow, I never came across that bit of Bond music history. Though I'm sure Jon Burlingame wrote all about it and more in his updated version of The Music of James Bond.
That's a great interview you linked to as well. Newman's humility really comes across in the way he talks about himself, his working relationship with the producers, and Bond music expectations. From all the interviews I've seen with him, he seems like a real upstanding guy.
It won't happen, but I desperately wish he'd be involved with the theme. Even if he provided a melody from which another producer/artist can work.
And yes, in this interview he comes across as a thoroughly nice guy.
If he pushes for it, with the backing of Mendes, it's something that can happen. It's probably not high on their agenda, though.
What won't happen? Newman signing up for Bond 24? Having an open mind? Newman doing something splendid?