Sévérine (SF) vs. Andrea Anders (TMWTGG)

2

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  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I said 'the best Bond girl ever given that small amount of screentime'. Eva Green had way more screentime and was the leading Bond girl. Why I mentioned the example of 'Oscar for best supporting actress', I wanted to make clear certain actresses can do marvellous things with only a tiny bit of screentime. It is one of the reasons why Dame Judi Dench won her Oscar...

    Well there's no way Berenice would ever win an Oscar based on the screen time she had. If you compare her to the likes of Pat Fearing, Sylvia Trench, Molly Warmflash, Paris Carver, Bibi Dahl then sure, by comparison she's easily the "best Bond girl" given her screen time.

  • JamesPageJamesPage Administrator, Moderator, Director
    Posts: 1,380
    doubleoego wrote:
    Well there's no way Berenice would ever win an Oscar based on the screen time she had.

    Ask Judi Dench about that... ;)
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited July 2013 Posts: 11,139
    Why? Last time I checked Judi and Berenice are 2 different people with different degrees of acting ability. Berenice is no Judi.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    OHMSS69 wrote:
    Ms Anders had some good scenes in TMWTGG and Swedish born Maud Adams does a great job with her. She was the better of the bond girls in the movie. She has enough screen time to show her stuff and let audiences care about her.

    Severine is fine and very sexy. I only wish she had more screen time. We barely knew her. Her death is even more tragic than Anders death.

    I agree with this assessment. Severine is less impressive due to her lack of screen time, so my vote would go to Andrea Anders instead. Like Strawberry Fields in QoS before her, I think that Severine was much too hyped up about before Skyfall's release.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Current standings:

    10 votes so far: Severine
    05 votes so far: Andrea Anders
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Dragonpol wrote:
    OHMSS69 wrote:
    Ms Anders had some good scenes in TMWTGG and Swedish born Maud Adams does a great job with her. She was the better of the bond girls in the movie. She has enough screen time to show her stuff and let audiences care about her.

    Severine is fine and very sexy. I only wish she had more screen time. We barely knew her. Her death is even more tragic than Anders death.

    I agree with this assessment. Severine is less impressive due to her lack of screen time, so my vote would go to Andrea Anders instead. Like Strawberry Fields in QoS before her, I think that Severine was much too hyped up about before Skyfall's release.

    This! I think therein lies one if the major issues I have with Severine; she was overly hyped as this unique and special Bond girl that would bring something new and different compared to the likes of Vesper and Camille. It didn't help that Onnatop was cited as a loose template as to what we could expect and Mendes harping on about how Severine is his idea of a Bond girl but in the end, Severine had about as much screen time as Solange and Fields and for me that hurts the significance of the character as an iconic and memorable Bond girl.

    I think Mendes maybe tried to make Severine a latter day Jill Masterson but I don't think it worked.
  • Posts: 11,119
    doubleoego wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    OHMSS69 wrote:
    Ms Anders had some good scenes in TMWTGG and Swedish born Maud Adams does a great job with her. She was the better of the bond girls in the movie. She has enough screen time to show her stuff and let audiences care about her.

    Severine is fine and very sexy. I only wish she had more screen time. We barely knew her. Her death is even more tragic than Anders death.

    I agree with this assessment. Severine is less impressive due to her lack of screen time, so my vote would go to Andrea Anders instead. Like Strawberry Fields in QoS before her, I think that Severine was much too hyped up about before Skyfall's release.

    This! I think therein lies one if the major issues I have with Severine; she was overly hyped as this unique and special Bond girl that would bring something new and different compared to the likes of Vesper and Camille. It didn't help that Onnatop was cited as a loose template as to what we could expect and Mendes harping on about how Severine is his idea of a Bond girl but in the end, Severine had about as much screen time as Solange and Fields and for me that hurts the significance of the character as an iconic and memorable Bond girl.

    I think Mendes maybe tried to make Severine a latter day Jill Masterson but I don't think it worked.

    So.......why doesn't it hurt you more that Solange and Fields had as much screentime as Severine?

    I think...if screentime is the major factor, the major argument in saying that the character is flawed, you are actually belittling someone's acting skills.....and someone's writing (screenplay) skills.

    In my opinion.....the major argument should always be: how the character was written and how the actor/actress performed that character. Having said that......if I were a female (just 'if' ok guys :-P)....I would be more happy to be actress Berenice Marlohe than actress Caterina Murino or Gemma Arterton.

    Why? In a way......Severine reminded me about Vesper. The moment in the casino where Bond is basically reading her minds.......is so reminiscent of Vesper's fear in 'Casino Royale'. Pulling that off for me is artistically way more impressive than acting your way in a role called 'Solange' or 'Fields'.

    This is my personal opinion off course ;-). Please....don't....feel offended...
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    First of all, if I don't like something I have every right to criticise the Hell out of it as I see fit. It's got nothing to do with belittling anybody out of maliciousness. Secondly, if you bothered to read my earlier post, I said Berenice did a good job and that my vote against her wasn't her fault and thirdly, Solange and Fields aren't categorised in the same way as Severine because they weren't the leading Bond girl/love interest like Severine was and neither of the two were hyped up the way Severine was either.
    Similarities can be found in the majority of the Bond girls and regarding Vesper and Severine both are tragic characters but as I again mentioned before Eva's Vesper is superior in every way in terms of character. Eva is the better actress and a far more interesting character and that helps due to the fact that she had far more character exposition and character interaction which can't be said for Berenice.
  • Posts: 2,483
    doubleoego wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    I need to rewatch TMWTGG again but as good as Berenice was, I just couldn't really invest in her character in a way I would have liked and that's not Berenice's fault. Severine was shockingly wasted by having insufficient screen time imo. It was as if she was so good that they were scared to feature her more, you know like those collectors who buy expensive art and lock it up in a vault and only look at it once every 15 years. With Maude, there was a bit more to see and what we saw wasn't comparably bad which is why I voted for her in the end.

    I completely disagree. Killing off Severine that early contributed to the gravity and psychotic demeanor of villain Silva. Sometimes you can't have both. Moreover, I think with the amount of screentime given to Berenice, we have perhaps seen the best Bond girl ever with so little screentime. Or someone needs to mention another Bond-girl with so little screentime.

    I personally think.......Berenice deserved an Oscar nomination in the category 'Best Supporting Actress'.

    Berenice did a good job but in no way was it Oscar worthy. I think you've over excited yourself. If Eva Green didn't get an Oscar nom then there's no chance in Hell Betenice would, especially with her minuscule screen time. As for best Bond girl ever, again your jumping the gun. Sure, it's your opinion but Luciana Palluzi's Fiona an infinitely better character in every respect imo was killed off too soon also and would rank her as a superior Bond girl in addition with Eva Green.

    Marlohe's performance was imminently Oscar-worthy. Her work in the casino sequence was the best ever by any Bond girl. The only ceiling on her performance was its brevity.
  • Posts: 2,483
    doubleoego wrote:
    Why? Last time I checked Judi and Berenice are 2 different people with different degrees of acting ability. Berenice is no Judi.

    Maybe. Maybe not. But her performance in SF was as good as anything Dench has ever done. And Oscars are for unique performances, not lifetime achievements.

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited July 2013 Posts: 11,139
    Who said anything about lifetime achievements or the longevity of one's acting career and experience? I said that Dench and Berenice have different degrees of acting ability. Maybe you should actually read what you quote. Like I said, Berenice did a good job, serviceable at best to be honest; she did her job well and in no way did her prrformance come close to Eva Green's level of acting. the dinner scene in CR alone after Bond just won the game abd before Vesper gets snatched showcased Green doing a better acting job than the entirety of what Berenice did in SF (imo) however, all you people claiming Berenice's performance was Oscar worthy really need to put down the crack pipe.
  • Posts: 2,483
    doubleoego wrote:
    Who said anything about lifetime achievements or the longevity of one's acting career and experience? I said that Dench and Berenice have different degrees of acting ability. Maybe you should actually read what you quote. Like I said, Berenice did a good job, serviceable at best to be honest; she did her job well and in no way did her prrformance come close to Eva Green's level of acting. the dinner scene in CR alone after Bond just won the game abd before Vesper gets snatched showcased Green doing a better acting job than the entirety of what Berenice did in SF (imo) however, all you people claiming Berenice's performance was Oscar worthy really need to put down the crack pipe.

    You spoke of overall acting ability, which, perforce, is determined by an actor's overall career. But an individual Oscar is given for one's performance in a single film. Hence, Halle Berry, a weak actress, nevertheless won her Oscar for her presumably praiseworthy performance in a single film. Ergo, Dench may be a much better actress than Marlohe, but I would argue that Marlohe's performance in SF was equal to anything Dench has ever done and Dench managed to win an Oscar.

    Regarding Eva Green, all I can do is shake my head and chuckle. She was perfectly fine in CR, but doesn't make the top five of all Bond girls. Were it not for her affected performance in the card game sequences, I might compare her to Marlohe. But alas, no.

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    An actors overall career? Don't make me laugh. Jennifer Hudson had no acting experience whatsoever, made her debut in dream girls and outacted EVERYONE that was cast in that movie and went on to win a well deserved Oscar. So, it has nothing to do with one's overall career but pure talent and ability which I've mentioned twice now. Berenice was good as I keep saying but her performance in SF in no way warrants Oscar recognition. No way. That's my opinion and it's not going to change.

    As for Green, I don't know where to rank her but if she's not top 5 then Berenice would be lucky to make the top 10. Which ever way one slices it, Eva's performance as a Bond girl heck her introduction alone on the train was better and more memorable than what Befenice did in SF.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited July 2013 Posts: 4,043
    While Eva Green is second only to Diana Rigg for me when it comes to Bond girls I was impressed with the short screen time Bernice got, her moments with Craig were great and the lines she got with him in the casino sequence were some of the best of the film.

    She might have had a small role but it was enough to have an impact on me, her death was needed to drive the story, that being said I haven't yet started tearing Skyfall apart like some and it remains number 2 in my ratings so maybe I'm a little biased in my opinion on the subject.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I'll vote for Severine, loved her, although I thought she was a bit wasted (weren't there some cut scenes with her?).

    Saying that though, even though Marlohe did a brilliant job (and imo was miles better than the very wooden Eve) and gave a great performance, I think it's laughable to say she deserved an Oscar.
  • Posts: 2,483
    doubleoego wrote:
    An actors overall career? Don't make me laugh. Jennifer Hudson had no acting experience whatsoever, made her debut in dream girls and outacted EVERYONE that was cast in that movie and went on to win a well deserved Oscar. So, it has nothing to do with one's overall career but pure talent and ability which I've mentioned twice now. Berenice was good as I keep saying but her performance in SF in no way warrants Oscar recognition. No way. That's my opinion and it's not going to change.

    As for Green, I don't know where to rank her but if she's not top 5 then Berenice would be lucky to make the top 10. Which ever way one slices it, Eva's performance as a Bond girl heck her introduction alone on the train was better and more memorable than what Befenice did in SF.

    Re: Hudson, a short career is nevertheless an overall career. But at any rate, you make my point--she had no reputation to speak of yet still won an Oscar based upon her performance in a single film. Hence, a single performance, not an outstanding overall oeuvre--just as could have been the case with Marlohe--got her the award.

    As to Marlohe verses Green, you have descended to adolescent whining, which bores me to the point of having no further interest.
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 4,622
    I do think Marlohe's performance was Oscar worthy. That was a fine piece of acting - far more challenging than what either Murino or Arterton were asked to do.
    I only make that Craig-era comparison because Marlohe, given the brevity of her screen-time, was really a tier 2 Bond-girl, not a lead like Green or Kurylenko.
    There was no lead Bond-girl in SF. If anything the lead was Dench.
    I do think Marlohe's performance compares very favourably with Green's.
    Green's performance was admirable,quite well realized, but Marlohe's performance was positively memorable. It's one of the great Bond-girl acting jobs. Her character haunts. Arguably the most tragic character in all of movie Bondom. I say that because she never had a chance. Severine was the ultimate victim....doomed. There was nothing even Bond could do for her.
    Even Tracy had pulled it together before she was gunned down. And Vesper IMO was much better conceived by Fleming. Fleming's Vesper was a truly tragic character. Green's Vesper wasn't in quite the hopeless situation that Fleming's Vesper was. Movie Vesper was a blackmail victim. She was salvageable, but she killed herself instead. Fleming's Vesper was looking at life in prison. She was a full blown traitor, who pulled one over on Bond.
    Marlohe really caught the pathos inherent in her character. I don't find Green's Vesper to be as interesting or tragic a character.

    ====However despite the Marlohe love, I am still firmly in the Adams as Anders camp.
    For me, her performance had much greater appeal, maybe not Oscar worthy, but I don't give a darn about Oscar worthiness when it comes to Bond performances. I am going for screen presence and apeal and in that regard, Adams is AAA-list Bond-girl.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    JamesPage wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    Well there's no way Berenice would ever win an Oscar based on the screen time she had.

    Ask Judi Dench about that... ;)

    Indeed, as Judi famously said that her Oscar winning role in Shakespeare in Love was only about 8 minutes of onscreen time. How I loved her winning it for that role, though. And she is such a class act.

  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I didn't realize that so many people thought so highly of Berenice Marlohe. She did a good job but she wasn't asked to do much. It's a shame that the film made her into such a throwaway character.

    So my vote goes to Ms. Anders. She was a more integral part of the story and seemed to be a more important asset to the lead villain. I think it hurt Scaramanga more, in his own twisted way, when he had to kill her.
    timmer wrote:
    Marlohe really caught the pathos inherent in her character. I don't find Green's Vesper to be as interesting or tragic a character.

    That's an interesting statement. I disagree about the interesting part. Vesper was an extremely dynamic and complex character. She was much more fleshed out than Severine was.

    As far as the tragic part goes, I tend to agree with you. Severine seemed to be a woman whose circumstances were completely out of her control. Vesper's death was tragic but, in the end, she made a choice. She had the ability to not betray her country.
  • Posts: 418
    Severine - but as other's have said, i also wish she had more screen time. There was so much more i wanted to know about her, and she had that classic Bond girl look..
  • Posts: 4,622
    pachazo wrote:
    That's an interesting statement. I disagree about the interesting part. Vesper was an extremely dynamic and complex character. She was much more fleshed out than Severine was.

    As far as the tragic part goes, I tend to agree with you. Severine seemed to be a woman whose circumstances were completely out of her control. Vesper's death was tragic but, in the end, she made a choice. She had the ability to not betray her country.
    That's a good distinction. Yes you could say Green's Vesper was indeed more interesting. There was a lot more going on with her, even if Severine IMO was a more tragic character.

  • Posts: 11,119
    timmer wrote:
    pachazo wrote:
    That's an interesting statement. I disagree about the interesting part. Vesper was an extremely dynamic and complex character. She was much more fleshed out than Severine was.

    As far as the tragic part goes, I tend to agree with you. Severine seemed to be a woman whose circumstances were completely out of her control. Vesper's death was tragic but, in the end, she made a choice. She had the ability to not betray her country.
    That's a good distinction. Yes you could say Green's Vesper was indeed more interesting. There was a lot more going on with her, even if Severine IMO was a more tragic character.

    Did Vesper really had a choice? They threatened to kill her real bf Yussuf Kabira (obviously a guy she felt less in love with, after Bond came in her life), who was seen in the end scene of QOS. Yes, Vesper 'could have gone to the police'. But mentally she felt so trapped in a web of conspiracies......that's what really killed her....

    Sometimes...people tend to forget that suicides are like real murders: They are only executed when people don't see a solution anymore. The only difference is that with a suicide....the final death of a person is done by that very same person.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    doubleoego wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    OHMSS69 wrote:
    Ms Anders had some good scenes in TMWTGG and Swedish born Maud Adams does a great job with her. She was the better of the bond girls in the movie. She has enough screen time to show her stuff and let audiences care about her.

    Severine is fine and very sexy. I only wish she had more screen time. We barely knew her. Her death is even more tragic than Anders death.

    I agree with this assessment. Severine is less impressive due to her lack of screen time, so my vote would go to Andrea Anders instead. Like Strawberry Fields in QoS before her, I think that Severine was much too hyped up about before Skyfall's release.

    This! I think therein lies one if the major issues I have with Severine; she was overly hyped as this unique and special Bond girl that would bring something new and different compared to the likes of Vesper and Camille. It didn't help that Onnatop was cited as a loose template as to what we could expect and Mendes harping on about how Severine is his idea of a Bond girl but in the end, Severine had about as much screen time as Solange and Fields and for me that hurts the significance of the character as an iconic and memorable Bond girl.

    I think Mendes maybe tried to make Severine a latter day Jill Masterson but I don't think it worked.

    I believe the Severine hype was misdirection to disguise the identity of Eve.
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 4,622

    Did Vesper really had a choice? They threatened to kill her real bf Yussuf Kabira (obviously a guy she felt less in love with, after Bond came in her life), who was seen in the end scene of QOS. Yes, Vesper 'could have gone to the police'. But mentally she felt so trapped in a web of conspiracies......that's what really killed her....

    Sometimes...people tend to forget that suicides are like real murders: They are only executed when people don't see a solution anymore. The only difference is that with a suicide....the final death of a person is done by that very same person.

    Vesper may have convinced herself that she was out of options as all suicide victims do, but still she had a choice. Yes Bond may have ditched their run-off-and-get-married plans, but she would likely has survived an Mi6 inquistion, if she had come over to the good.
    Compare with Fleming's Vesper, who had a long history of traitorous double-agent dealings with Smersh. She was living a lie with Bond that she knew couldn't last. So she killed herself rather than continue the lie, or come clean and face life in prison. She also had a choice, but not much of one.

  • Posts: 15,125
    Andrea was one of the best things about TMWTGG, but as SF is a far superior movie, I have to go with Séverine.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Both characters were rather forgettable. Andrea Anders just looked miserable all the time, had a doberman face, and I much prefered Adam's Octopussy character a decade later. Severine wasn't also up to much, had more mascara on in the talk with Bond at the casino, than Green's Vesper Lynd in Casino Royale, something I thought wasn't feasibly possible. Anders had more screen time in '74 than Marlohe did last year, and was more pivotal to the plot of the movie so I went with her
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    timmer wrote:
    ====However despite the Marlohe love, I am still firmly in the Adams as Anders camp.
    For me, her performance had much greater appeal, maybe not Oscar worthy, but I don't give a darn about Oscar worthiness when it comes to Bond performances. I am going for screen presence and apeal and in that regard, Adams is AAA-list Bond-girl.

    I'll second. It's probably my bias in favor of 1960s through 1980s Bond, but I'll cast my vote for Miss Anders.
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 96
    I'm loving the comparison between these two characters, but I'm going to have to go with Severine (Berenice) on this one, due to the fact of the tragic side of them. Severine felt like she genuinely wanted Silva dead and you felt like she's wanted him dead for some time, but with Andrea it felt like Bond turned up and then she wanted Scaramanga dead.

    Also, their deaths, Severine's felt more sacrificial and "heartbreaking" because we saw it happen and we saw the build up. Andrea's was predictable and much less "heartbreaking" due to Bond finding her in an unrealistic way and us not seeing the death.

    [By unrealistic I mean that she was shot either before the boxing or during and her body managed to stay upright and in position. Also, the expression her face was almost like she was waxwork in Madame Tussards. Surely, she would have slumped to the ground and surely someone would have seen it happen?]
  • GalaSilva wrote:
    I'm loving the comparison between these two characters, but I'm going to have to go with Severine (Berenice) on this one, due to the fact of the tragic side of them. Severine felt like she genuinely wanted Silva dead and you felt like she's wanted him dead for some time, but with Andrea it felt like Bond turned up and then she wanted Scaramanga dead.

    Also, their deaths, Severine's felt more sacrificial and "heartbreaking" because we saw it happen and we saw the build up. Andrea's was predictable and much less "heartbreaking" due to Bond finding her in an unrealistic way and us not seeing the death.

    [By unrealistic I mean that she was shot either before the boxing or during and her body managed to stay upright and in position. Also, the expression her face was almost like she was waxwork in Madame Tussards. Surely, she would have slumped to the ground and surely someone would have seen it happen?]

    It may have felt that way to you, but in the case of Miss Anders this doesn't seem correct. Bond just didn't "turn up", Anders sent the golden bullet and a note with his fingerprint on it in the hope he would do her dirty work for her. He may have eventually crossed paths with Scaramanga during his Solex mission and taken him out to Anders' satisfaction, but this isn't how it went. In the case of Severine, Bond really did turn up and present her with the opportunity to rid herself of Silva. This is definitely a tribute to TMWTGG in keeping with the various 50th anniversary nods we see in SF.



  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    I much prefer Andrea, but maybe thats because I love Maud Adams. She's mature, has great screen presence and is wholly superior to the forgettable Severine.
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