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Espionage is hot again!
WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, the NSA, PRISM, bugging other nations, Edward Snowden, Anonymous, whistleblowers and Bradley Manning. Espionage has never been such a 'hot newsitem' ever since the iron curtain fell and the Cold War came to an end.
It's one of the reasons why the James Bond film 'Skyfall' gets some new gravita in today's political environment. Many citizens have always thought that espionage isn't that important anymore since the Cold War ended. But I call them naïve. I was quite surprised about a discussion I just had with a Dutch friend of mine. He....didn't know about the Dutch NSO (Dutch equivalent of PRISM and a clandestine institution financially supported by the Dutch government). Let alone how important the AIVD (Dutch Domestic Intelligence Service, comparable with British MI-5) and MIVD (Foreign Military Intelligence Service, comparabale with British MI-6) are for today's Dutch prosperity.
I call it naïve thinking. Hell, I even think Edward Snowden is extremely naïve to think that current day's planet Earth doesn't need to have secret intelligence services. Ever since new countries like China, Russia, India and Brazil rapidly transformed into new power blocks, intelligence services started developing with them.
For rising world powers like China espionage is important to actually gain more power. One can think of economical espionage, supported by the government. For 'old' western powers espionage becomes increasingly important to actually maintain current day prosperity and welfare. It is one of the reasons why I think countries like the USA and the UK will slowly become less democratic, while at the same time China and Russia are actually 'gaining' propserity from espionage activities and will in the next decades become more democratic.
The question in this discussion about espionage should NOT be:
--> Is espionage bad and is it completely undemocratic and destroying a citizen's privacy completely?
I call this the 'Bradley Manning/Edward Snowden Naivety Complex'
The question SHOULD be:
--> To whom is espionage pointed at? At badly functioning politicians and criminal people inside governments (Putin? Anyone?)? Or at ordinary citizens (One can think of methods like the StaSi applied in East-Germany. Watch the movie 'The Live Of Others')? And off course.....why is espionage important?
I was listening to ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs / ex-Secretary of State from The Netherlands Mr. Ben Bot: http://nos.nl/artikel/524705-ben-bot-ik-werd-ook-afgeluisterd.html. He openly admits that he was being eavesdropped when the Dutch PM Balkenende was calling him in Brussels....if he "please slow down negotiations a bit in Brussels, because I just got a phonecall from this country". No one could have known that, because he was still in the same board room :-). Mr. Ben Bot knew what country was eavesdropping him, but he didn't want to tell which country.
It's one of the reasons why the James Bond film 'Skyfall' gets some new gravita in today's political environment. Many citizens have always thought that espionage isn't that important anymore since the Cold War ended. But I call them naïve. I was quite surprised about a discussion I just had with a Dutch friend of mine. He....didn't know about the Dutch NSO (Dutch equivalent of PRISM and a clandestine institution financially supported by the Dutch government). Let alone how important the AIVD (Dutch Domestic Intelligence Service, comparable with British MI-5) and MIVD (Foreign Military Intelligence Service, comparabale with British MI-6) are for today's Dutch prosperity.
I call it naïve thinking. Hell, I even think Edward Snowden is extremely naïve to think that current day's planet Earth doesn't need to have secret intelligence services. Ever since new countries like China, Russia, India and Brazil rapidly transformed into new power blocks, intelligence services started developing with them.
For rising world powers like China espionage is important to actually gain more power. One can think of economical espionage, supported by the government. For 'old' western powers espionage becomes increasingly important to actually maintain current day prosperity and welfare. It is one of the reasons why I think countries like the USA and the UK will slowly become less democratic, while at the same time China and Russia are actually 'gaining' propserity from espionage activities and will in the next decades become more democratic.
The question in this discussion about espionage should NOT be:
--> Is espionage bad and is it completely undemocratic and destroying a citizen's privacy completely?
I call this the 'Bradley Manning/Edward Snowden Naivety Complex'
The question SHOULD be:
--> To whom is espionage pointed at? At badly functioning politicians and criminal people inside governments (Putin? Anyone?)? Or at ordinary citizens (One can think of methods like the StaSi applied in East-Germany. Watch the movie 'The Live Of Others')? And off course.....why is espionage important?
I was listening to ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs / ex-Secretary of State from The Netherlands Mr. Ben Bot: http://nos.nl/artikel/524705-ben-bot-ik-werd-ook-afgeluisterd.html. He openly admits that he was being eavesdropped when the Dutch PM Balkenende was calling him in Brussels....if he "please slow down negotiations a bit in Brussels, because I just got a phonecall from this country". No one could have known that, because he was still in the same board room :-). Mr. Ben Bot knew what country was eavesdropping him, but he didn't want to tell which country.
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Comments
As for espionage being hot, I'm pretty sure everyone with a fully functioning brain knows what the world governments are up to. It's not rocket science to deduce that 2+2 = 4.
It's one thing to put things out of context here. Fact is.......espionage has been in the news a lot lately. Yes, I know that it's not rocket science to know what governments are up to. Hence the fact I call people naive who don't know that....who didn't thought that espionage was this big.
Just....read my post carefully, then you'll see we both agree :-).
I'm not sure that's strictly true. You suggest Snowden is implying the world doesn't need intelligence services. This isn't even remotely close to what he is suggesting. For that reason alone I can't take you seriously.
Regarding its necessity? Espionage is a tool, and tools are used for a variety of purposes both reasonable and questionable.
Regarding the 'Bradley Manning/Edward Snowden Naivety Complex'? Good on them. If they can expose a little corruption, cool. If they are just exposing secrets that should stay secrets (an argument can be made for that I guess), then they are showing us the cracks in the system, now aren't they? ;)
I never suggested that @RC7. I said: "I even think Edward Snowden is extremely naïve to think that current day's planet Earth doesn't need to have secret intelligence services." That's something different. I say that Snowden is naive. I never implied anywhere in my arguments that 'Snowden is implying the world doesn't need intelligence services'. I mainly use him as an example of a whistleblower.
I think you're right here @chrisisall. Espionage...intelligence services are indeed a tool, used for a variety of purposes, both questionable and reasonable. That's how we should look at espionage in today's society. It is of my understanding that guys like Bradley Manning, Julian Assange and Edward Snowden are way too naive about this. Yes, it would be wunderful if the world can do without questionable espionage practices. But not in my lifetime. It's not realistic.
The phrase 'Edward Snowden is extremely naive to think that current day's planet earth doesn't need to have secret intelligence services' - suggests exactly what I said. That you're implying Snowden feels there is no need for intelligence services. This isn't what Snowden thinks. Period.
Uhm.....his actions suggest otherwise. Anyway, this is besdies the point @RC7. I think you can agree with me that the point in this topic I want to make clear is something else no :-)?
The may indeed be, but there is also the naivete of believing covert ops that cannot remain covert are being handled by the best & brightest.
The key thing to remember here is Saunders.
The average intelligence agent is no more or less competent than the average doctor or plumber- that is to say, all the training in the world generally doesn't alter one's basic IQ or character. My extensive training in unarmed combat doesn't make me a better judge of human character, nor does it entitle me to feel superiour to those I can best in a physical contest- it just makes me able to do something that some others seem to find rather difficult.
Give some peeps training, then AUTHORITY, and humility can sometimes fly out the window, and overconfidence in one's self as a superiour human specimen slowly takes hold.
Sure you understand.
:P
Genuinely? I'm not sure what your point is.
Cyber-terrorism in SF is the McGuffin. It hints rather vaguely at real world fears but Silva is certainly nothing like Assange. The story itself is a rather personal, human story. As big a fan of the film as you are, I'd have thought you'd realise this.
Have you seen the German movie 'The Life Of Others'? It perfectly shows your example. Orinary civilians were recruited for simple tasks like eavesdropping. Hence, even in the Second World War people were not always what they seemed to be.....that goes for high ranking SS spies but also for ordinary civilians who were afraid that its neighbours hiding place for jews could damage their own business.....
It's possible you missed my point or that I made it badly.
Your point being?
The Dawn of Man:
UGG: I hear Sola will get with you for a fish.
Nogg: Sola is from the Slan tribe; she's a set up for recon & attack, you fool!
Ugg: Ahh, that explains her comely demeanour and low copulation price.
Nogg: See? Never trust a too-good-to-be-true bargain in these early austere hunter/gatherer times.
Ugg: I will send in Thun to investigate, no one fools HIM!
Nogg: Good call, Ugg. Give him a shell blade to hide in his loincloth, just in case.
Ugg: He will need a cover tribe name... how about Chmzbod?
Nogg: It will be the stuff of legend!
Well, there's a famous book called The Second Oldest Profession on espionage in Britain.
Moved to General Discussion.
You're right @Benny. Sorry about it :-).
Actually your Arguments tend to emphasize how dated SFs Bond looks especially compared to the Bourne Movies, which REALLY were focusing largely on the whole "Complete Survillance" issue and had a Hero, which seemed comfortable in the 21. Century and not like a relic from the Cold War.
BTW, since 9/11 there hasn't hardly been a Day on which we weren't told,that without our Intelligence Agencies we probably wouldn't survive until Dinner, so i fail to see how the Snowdon Case has brought up the toppic. What Snowdon did was telling us,that most of our wildest asumptions - regarding the "Big brothering" of Society - were probably not far behind the truth.