The appearance of the villain(s)

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    My pleasure.

    It's amazing the details one so easily forgets - it's been too long.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited August 2013 Posts: 4,516
    Ludovico wrote:
    I have in the past started a thread about the clothes of the villain. I think it was an incomplete topic, to say the list. This thread is about the general appearance of future villains, how they would have the "benign bizarre" that was so common and so Bondian in many of the early Bond movies: the cat of Blofeld, the metal hands of Dr No, the eyepatch of Largo, the general appearance of Rosa Klebb, etc. What's left, and how to do it convincingly nowadays, without going into self-parody?

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQU5XNmkpm14N6rycrW4h4o1BOBtK1b4i0yAdfz9jDeA1kiOsqc
    Special thanks from Pervis and Wade

  • Posts: 1,068
    It purely depends on how good the actor portraying the big bad guy is - Christopher Walken's Max Zorin didn't have weeping blood, eye patches, a limp etc etc but was expertly acted and evidently psychotic which is certainly a pre-requisite for being evil and notwithstanding the facepaint look how Heath Ledger gave us the best Joker ever.

    Plot twist:
    Quantum is actually run by Max Zorin who had $ billions salted away and survived the plummet into San Francisco Bay. Hey it worked for RDJ as Holmes, Matt Damon in Bourne and even DC in SF...
  • Posts: 15,117
    andmcit wrote:
    It purely depends on how good the actor portraying the big bad guy is - Christopher Walken's Max Zorin didn't have weeping blood, eye patches, a limp etc etc but was expertly acted and evidently psychotic which is certainly a pre-requisite for being evil and notwithstanding the facepaint look how Heath Ledger gave us the best Joker ever.

    Plot twist:
    Quantum is actually run by Max Zorin who had $ billions salted away and survived the plummet into San Francisco Bay. Hey it worked for RDJ as Holmes, Matt Damon in Bourne and even DC in SF...

    But even Zorin had benign bizarre elements: the Aryan overall appearance, a classic in Bond movies. It was more subtle than Silva, but still. Of course this thread is assuming the villain will be properly cast. And any oddity must not seem to be added to the character, but springing from him, like Richard III's appearance in Shakespeare's play. A scar has a history, there is a reason why it is there, one does not wear a scar, you have it and it shapes you, or says something about you.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited August 2013 Posts: 18,271
    Post gone due to a site error. Will retype it later.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 1,068
    Actually, I feel the striking eyes reference is a very good one as they're always seen as the window to the soul etc and when they are so vividly coloured they can be mesmerising. Just a few weeks ago as part of my work I was shown a portrait of a very pretty woman who had the most amazing vivid bottle green eyes unlike anything I've ever seen and the impact on myself and everyone who saw it was huge - easily achieved with contact lenses with an unusual bright orange or rich dark green etc. If not the villain a leading character?

    Certainly clothes and mannerisms tell a story about a character but I don't feel physical deformities are the right way to go no matter how dramatic they may be depicted on the screen as this can be seen as being prejudicial to people with disabilities.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 15,117
    andmcit wrote:
    Actually, I feel the striking eyes reference is a very good one as they're always seen as the window to the soul etc and when they are so vividly coloured they can be mesmerising. Just a few weeks ago as part of my work I was shown a portrait of a very pretty woman who had the most amazing vivid bottle green eyes unlike anything I've ever seen and the impact on myself and everyone who saw it was huge - easily achieved with contact lenses with an unusual bright orange or rich dark green etc. If not the villain a leading character?

    Certainly clothes and mannerisms tell a story about a character but I don't feel physical deformities are the right way to go no matter how dramatic they may be depicted on the screen as this can be seen as being prejudicial to people with disabilities.

    In that case we might as well stop playing Richard III, as the main character has pretty much all the disabilities and deformities one can think of.

    The challenge with physical appearances is to keep it new and original. Scars, burnt marks and battle wounds have been done to death. I think they did very well with Silva, going very subtly, yet with an abundance of small touches that makes him very odd from his very first entrance. You do not know about the cyanide yet, but there is something about his face, his way of talking, the brightness of his teeth, that looks and feels strange.

    An idea in a similar vein, vaguely inspired by the novel's Hugo Drax: a botched plastic surgery job. A few years ago, the main villain wanted to go into hiding and change identity and changed his appearance, but things went wrong. Not like the Joker in Batman 89 wrong, but wrong enough to, instead of looking like another person, he looks somewhat unnatural, like an old man who used too much botox or something.
  • Posts: 2,483
    andmcit wrote:
    It purely depends on how good the actor portraying the big bad guy is - Christopher Walken's Max Zorin didn't have weeping blood, eye patches, a limp etc etc but was expertly acted and evidently psychotic which is certainly a pre-requisite for being evil and notwithstanding the facepaint look how Heath Ledger gave us the best Joker ever.
    Plot twist:
    Quantum is actually run by Max Zorin who had $ billions salted away and survived the plummet into San Francisco Bay. Hey it worked for RDJ as Holmes, Matt Damon in Bourne and even DC in SF...

    True. But Zorin did have the concrete blonde hair, and a rather quirky personality. I think the main point is that Bond villains cannot be plain. They cannot be everyman. They have to stick out in some way, and one method of doing this is by giving them a very distinctive physical marker.

  • Posts: 2,483
    andmcit wrote:
    Actually, I feel the striking eyes reference is a very good one as they're always seen as the window to the soul etc and when they are so vividly coloured they can be mesmerising. Just a few weeks ago as part of my work I was shown a portrait of a very pretty woman who had the most amazing vivid bottle green eyes unlike anything I've ever seen and the impact on myself and everyone who saw it was huge - easily achieved with contact lenses with an unusual bright orange or rich dark green etc. If not the villain a leading character?

    Certainly clothes and mannerisms tell a story about a character but I don't feel physical deformities are the right way to go no matter how dramatic they may be depicted on the screen as this can be seen as being prejudicial to people with disabilities.

    Agreed completely with your first paragraph. Indeed, in OHMSS Fleming describes Blofeld has having unsettling dark green eyes. I would love to see this eye color in a future Bond villain.

    Your second paragraph, I'm afraid, is errant nonsense.

  • Posts: 1,068
    Hell, I'm not trying to trot out the tired old politically correct view that you can't show deformed or disabled characters. My 'nonsense' comment simply picks up on the point that physical deformities seem to be preferable here for a lead villiain on this thread in their portrayal of someone who has an 'evil' or certainly no good agenda. I'd say distinctive, definitely, deformed (as per Richard lll) No.
  • Posts: 15,117
    andmcit wrote:
    Hell, I'm not trying to trot out the tired old politically correct view that you can't show deformed or disabled characters. My 'nonsense' comment simply picks up on the point that physical deformities seem to be preferable here for a lead villiain on this thread in their portrayal of someone who has an 'evil' or certainly no good agenda. I'd say distinctive, definitely, deformed (as per Richard lll) No.

    But why not if it was good enough for Shakespeare?
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 1,068
    OK, maybe I'm being too sensitive.

    Richard lll was recorded as being a hugely disfigured King and this would be a constant reminder and motivator for his actions so yes, a writer such as Shakespeare would see this as dynamite material for portraying an interesting character riling against his deformity and shading his every decision which is after all what is a point of discussion here.

    I just don't feel comfortable rooting against the bad guy here who is going to have a stunted limb, hump on the back and the like. Why not go the whole hog and have conjoined twins as the lead villain? OK, an extreme example. For me there's nothing wrong with depiction by the interesting characters played by Robert Davi and Benicio Del Toro - yes the scaring for Sanchez is now a bit hackneyed and is falling into being a caricature parody. All I'd want is a striking appearance as touched on by Silva in SF.
  • Posts: 15,117
    nd
    andmcit wrote:
    OK, maybe I'm being too sensitive.

    Richard lll was recorded as being a hugely disfigured King and this would be a constant reminder and motivator for his actions so yes, a writer such as Shakespeare would see this as dynamite material for portraying an interesting character riling against his deformity and shading his every decision which is after all what is a point of discussion here.

    I just don't feel comfortable rooting against the bad guy here who is going to have a stunted limb, hump on the back and the like. Why not go the whole hog and have conjoined twins as the lead villain? OK, an extreme example. For me there's nothing wrong with depiction by the interesting characters played by Robert Davi and Benicio Del Toro - yes the scaring for Sanchez is now a bit hackneyed and is falling into being a caricature parody. All I'd want is a striking appearance as touched on by Silva in SF.

    Richard III was also not nearly as evil as Shakespeare depicted him. In fact his reputation was pretty much tainted by Tudor propaganda. What I am trying to say is that people now understand artistic licenses. No bald people ever complained about Blofeld's baldness or people with eyepatch about Largo's one.

    And one can root for a villain, at least for a while. I want Bond to have a run for his money and go against a real malevolent and intelligent adversary. I come back to Shakespeare: when does one want Richard III to fail? At the end of the play of course, when he gets retribution for all the evil he has done, but also when he had time to show how clever he was climbing to power.
  • Posts: 2,483
    andmcit wrote:
    Hell, I'm not trying to trot out the tired old politically correct view that you can't show deformed or disabled characters. My 'nonsense' comment simply picks up on the point that physical deformities seem to be preferable here for a lead villiain on this thread in their portrayal of someone who has an 'evil' or certainly no good agenda. I'd say distinctive, definitely, deformed (as per Richard lll) No.

    So what? Where's the harm in it? If a person with a physical deformity gets bent out of shape because of Bond villains then he's got far greater problems than his deformity. And it's not Eon's job to kowtow to such people.

  • edited August 2013 Posts: 15,117
    andmcit wrote:
    Hell, I'm not trying to trot out the tired old politically correct view that you can't show deformed or disabled characters. My 'nonsense' comment simply picks up on the point that physical deformities seem to be preferable here for a lead villiain on this thread in their portrayal of someone who has an 'evil' or certainly no good agenda. I'd say distinctive, definitely, deformed (as per Richard lll) No.

    So what? Where's the harm in it? If a person with a physical deformity gets bent out of shape because of Bond villains then he's got far greater problems than his deformity. And it's not Eon's job to kowtow to such people.

    Indeed. And I am not sure any dwarf was unhappy about Hervé Villechaise playing a villain. I am sure many envied him for playing in a Bond movie.

    I think the very worst thing that could happen would be someone complaining that they did not cast an actor with whatever deformity they gave the villain.
  • Posts: 686
    One of the things that I have noticed about the villains in the novels is that they had little or red hair.
  • Posts: 15,117
    They often have crew cuts. too. Many look brutish, whether they are henchmen or masterminds.
  • Posts: 2,483
    They usually have pale brown, almost yellow eyes, as well.
  • Posts: 15,117
    I always thought Brother Mouzone in The Wire would make a good model for a Bond villain:

  • Posts: 15,117
    Maybe this is not appearance, but a villain using a specific weapon (a navaja, a scarf used to strangle) would be a nice little distinctive feature.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote:
    Maybe this is not appearance, but a villain using a specific weapon (a navaja, a scarf used to strangle) would be a nice little distinctive feature.

    How about a villain of either sex masquerading through wearing an Islamic burka - keeping it topical - like Scaramanga they could pass through Customs unnoticed. In John Gardner's Never Send Flowers the villain David Dragonpol dresses as a nun with a habit of olden times in order to carry out an assassination in Rome, so anything's possible.
  • edited October 2013 Posts: 15,117
    Cross-dressing villain? I don't think it could work, or at least it would be too dangerous. I want to avoid the infamous Blofeld incident in DAF. Fantômas back in the early XXth century dressed as a nun too, in one story (which I think may have inspired NSF). It worked for the surreal environment that was his universe, but now it has been done tod eath.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2013 Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote:
    Cross-dressing villain? I don't think it could work, or at least it would be too dangerous. I want to avoid the infamous Blofeld incident in DAF. Fantômas back in the early XXth century dressed as a nun too, in one story (which I think may have inspired NSF). It worked for the surreal environment that was his universe, but now it has been done tod eath.

    Yes, Blofeld in drag was not what I had in mind. Thanks for the additional info on nuns - I didn't know that but I'm always on the look-out for additional inspirations for Never Send Flowers. Interestingly, Gardner has a man dressed in the habits of a nun in his later PC Suzie Mountford novel No Human Enemy (2007) so it seemed to be something that he was interested in - again there is the religious influence as he was a Church of England priest at one thing and had a degree in Theology from St John's College, Cambridge.

    Also, on the surreal environment, are you referring to John Gardner there or something else entirely, and could you possibly expand on what you mean by that at all? It's just that I'm intrigued by that comment, @Ludovico.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Just out of curiosity, why is it that everyone hates the Blofeld in drag scene (including me) but no one bats an eye over the Bouvar sequence?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    pachazo wrote:
    Just out of curiosity, why is it that everyone hates the Blofeld in drag scene (including me) but no one bats an eye over the Bouvar sequence?

    I think because it just seemed so camp and pointless - it was unnecessary and made no real narrative sense, like much of the film in fact. I still can't quite fathom what that crazy DAF film was all about...
  • Posts: 15,117
    pachazo wrote:
    Just out of curiosity, why is it that everyone hates the Blofeld in drag scene (including me) but no one bats an eye over the Bouvar sequence?

    Not sure why exactly, but I always thought it worked in TB, but not in DAF. I guess Bouvar was not in a comedic scene, and he was no Blofeld. I think the scene in TB was used for shock value.
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Cross-dressing villain? I don't think it could work, or at least it would be too dangerous. I want to avoid the infamous Blofeld incident in DAF. Fantômas back in the early XXth century dressed as a nun too, in one story (which I think may have inspired NSF). It worked for the surreal environment that was his universe, but now it has been done tod eath.

    Yes, Blofeld in drag was not what I had in mind. Thanks for the additional info on nuns - I didn't know that but I'm always on the look-out for additional inspirations for Never Send Flowers. Interestingly, Gardner has a man dressed in the habits of a nun in his later PC Suzie Mountford novel No Human Enemy (2007) so it seemed to be something that he was interested in - again there is the religious influence as he was a Church of England priest at one thing and had a degree in Theology from St John's College, Cambridge.

    Also, on the surreal environment, are you referring to John Gardner there or something else entirely, and could you possibly expand on what you mean by that at all? It's just that I'm intrigued by that comment, @Ludovico.

    I meant the Fantômas universe. He even disguises himself as a bride (his daughter) to avoid her marrying one of the good guys. And it is all played in a straight face, not as comedy but pure suspense.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2013 Posts: 17,798
    YOLT's pre-plastic surgery Blofeld or TSWLM's post-plastic surgery Stromberg are as far as I ever want it to go.
    Le C's weeping blood was cool.
    Dr. No's metal hands rocked.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    chrisisall wrote:
    YOLT's pre-plastic surgery Blofeld or TSWLM's post-plastic surgery Stromberg are as far as I ever want it to go.
    Le C's weeping blood was cool.
    Dr. No's metal hands rocked.

    Post-plastic surgery Stromberg?! Whatever do you mean Mr chrisisall?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Post-plastic surgery Stromberg?! Whatever do you mean Mr chrisisall?
    No one is born with truly webbed fingers, I figured Stromberg for the kind of nut that'd have it done in prep for his 'event'.
    ;)
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