The appearance of the villain(s)

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    +1,Rickman was the best Bond villain, we never had. I can just
    Hear his voice delivering some of those classic lines ! :)
  • patb wrote: »
    It would be nice that, if the Bond franchise is seen as a reflection of the society it is made within, we could move away from the connection between disability/deformity and evil. Three years ago, we saw the best ever paralympics in London and the stigma and taboo attached to disability are finally being removed. We also see our brave guys coming back from action abroad with dreadful injuries from mines etc, they deserve respect. At an obvious or sub-liminal level, seeing a guy with a metal hand (DrN) or a mechanical arm (LALD) or his face scarred by burns (GE) as the bad guy is a little demeaning and old fashioned IMHO. Evil comes in all shapes and sizes. I know many will think I am being PC but there you go.
    PS Having see Inglorious Bastards a few nights ago on TV (and that reminding me of Resevoir Dogs), evil can so effectively be portrayed via actions and character, you dont need gimicks.

    You are being PC. Artistic freedom trumps--with great ease, I might add--the delicate sensitivities of designated victim groups. In other words, if the "disfigured community" gets its knickers in a twist because a Bond villain weeps blood or has a patch over his eye, it can get stuffed.

  • patb wrote: »
    No worries but Bond does move on, when was the last time he had a smoke for example, Bond movies clearly do reflect the era they are made in, it was just an observation.
    There were times (before Fleming) where it was perfectly OK to link ethnic background with being evil and we have grown up and realised that its just wrong, things do evolve and hopefully improve.
    (PS its not just Fleming, http://cjc-online.ca/index.php/journal/article/view/718/624)

    No. Bond no longer smokes alright. And more's the pity. And grown up? Ha. I'd say we've rejected unpleasant realities and become infantilized. If politically correct reality intrudes, we bang our spoons on our high chairs and whine for Nanny Obama or the UN Human Rights Commission or the EU to wade in and arrest those who hurt our feelings. And, worrisomely enough, they often do.

  • Posts: 15,117
    Let's not worry too much about the next movie: the villain will most likely be played by a German. If it is the case Waltz did not mind having his national background and playing a baguy. As for the appearance, Silva stood out as very odd.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    I don't think that's PC at all when villains are not necessarily depicted as disfigured. Why would we need that pointer? Look, there's the guy with the eyepatch, must be a baddie? C'mon, that's SO on the nose.

    But a disfigurement cleverly used (Skyfall for exa,ple) can greatly add to a character, no doubt about it. Shouldn't be the main characterisation though. Hannibal Lecter is just an oordinary older guy really, Hopkins didn't need crutches or hooks from kindergarten horror stories, his depiction was evil enough, no?
  • Posts: 4,615
    I watched TB last night for the first time in ages. The eyepatch just looks silly IMHO. You are spot on with Hopkins playing HL (or more so with Brain Cox IMHO), its all down to great scripts, great writing and great directing. Sticking on a 50p eye patch does not make up for lacking in the other areas. Imagine Hans Gruber with an eyepatch? not good
  • Posts: 15,117
    The eyepatch was a shortcut in TB and a rather clever one imo since there was a water theme in the movie. Fleming used deformities for his villains, but they were rather difficult to reproduce in movies. Hence the use of shortcuts. Die Hard is a different world than Bond's, even then Hans Gruber with his polite manners and his pointy beard looks rather like a devil.
  • Campbell2 wrote: »
    I don't think that's PC at all when villains are not necessarily depicted as disfigured. Why would we need that pointer? Look, there's the guy with the eyepatch, must be a baddie? C'mon, that's SO on the nose.

    But a disfigurement cleverly used (Skyfall for exa,ple) can greatly add to a character, no doubt about it. Shouldn't be the main characterisation though. Hannibal Lecter is just an oordinary older guy really, Hopkins didn't need crutches or hooks from kindergarten horror stories, his depiction was evil enough, no?

    We're talking about Fleming's Bond, not Silence of the Lambs. And Fleming tropes should never be jettisoned because they will offend the hurt-mongers. The deformities and tics of the villain are a key part of Fleming's Benign Bizarre. They are part of what makes the Bond series unique rather than cardboard Hollywood. Don't you guys believe in "diversity" rather than cookie-cutter conformity? Perhaps not.

  • Posts: 15,117
    People often forget that Fleming was in many ways a XIXth century writer, I'm his use of tropes at least. His villains were larger than life and their appearances illustrated their nature.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Well thats the issue, he tried to link appearance to nature but not based on anything other than the values we place. Someone having one eye has nothing to do whatsover with their nature.
  • Posts: 15,117
    patb wrote: »
    Well thats the issue, he tried to link appearance to nature but not based on anything other than the values we place. Someone having one eye has nothing to do whatsover with their nature.

    my point is he used it so why not use it? It is part of Bond's mythos, so to speak. I am all for the banality of evil, Elmore Leonard used to make amazing characters like this, but Fleming was different.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Course you can use it. Is it necessary? No, don't think so. Fleming did, but often it's slapsticky at best. How does No get by with his hooks and the contact lenses? Lol, must be awesome to clean them!

    With Blofeld Fleming was through with the totally gross deformities, the eyes and scarred nose being enough. And the eyes he hid behind tinted lenses in OHMSS. much more interesting for me was the samurai fetish and the beekeeper dress, great stuff.
  • Posts: 1,987
    Patb said, Evil comes in all shapes and sizes. But so does good. That our heroes and heroines tend to be tall and good looking, is that insult to those who don't fit that description?

    Largo's eyepatch didn't bother me in the least. It didn't seem gratuitous, phony, or scream out "Eyepatch equals villain." On the other hand, Silva's facial transformation was just plain silly and ruined what otherwise should have been a great villain portrayal. Silva's transformation was in the same category as Jaws' teeth, only one was done with an appliance and the other CGI. Both were outside of reality, which is why they fail.






  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Really? I thought Silva profited from that effect. Gave him a backstorythathurt.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Course you can use it. Is it necessary? No, don't think so. Fleming did, but often it's slapsticky at best. How does No get by with his hooks and the contact lenses? Lol, must be awesome to clean them!

    With Blofeld Fleming was through with the totally gross deformities, the eyes and scarred nose being enough. And the eyes he hid behind tinted lenses in OHMSS. much more interesting for me was the samurai fetish and the beekeeper dress, great stuff.

    Have you actually read the description Fleming makes of Blofeld? Pure baroque. Through with deformities? And how about Irma Bunt?
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    edited January 2015 Posts: 299
    Which do you mean? The large, white, bland face under the square, wry blackcrewcut and the heavy, squat nose. The middle-aged fat of authority? C'mon, that's just the average middle-aged guy who once did sports but now ist just overweight and miserable. Or do you mean the lean, aristocratic Bloffeld with the greying hair? Not a match on scarred and burned Drax, no? Bunt is hardly extraordinary for a middle-aged woman I think. If you think she's deformed, well, can't say I see it.
  • Posts: 4,615
    OK, let me float something then that I am playing with within my own Bond script. How about a villain who is just as handsome as Bond and a Bond girl who, though clearly once was stunning, has her own facial scars? Is that just too "out there" ?
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Why not? Depends how convincing it's written IMO. Was that Trevanian who once had a baddie obsessed with fitness and good looks?
  • Posts: 15,117
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Which do you mean? The large, white, bland face under the square, wry blackcrewcut and the heavy, squat nose. The middle-aged fat of authority? C'mon, that's just the average middle-aged guy who once did sports but now ist just overweight and miserable. Or do you mean the lean, aristocratic Bloffeld with the greying hair? Not a match on scarred and burned Drax, no? Bunt is hardly extraordinary for a middle-aged woman I think. If you think she's deformed, well, can't say I see it.

    You haven't read it. Blofeld has no scar save from his nose in ohmss, but he's depicted as larger than life, to a shakesperean degree. His mouth is like a badly healed wound, his eyes deep pools,,etc.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299

    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Which do you mean? The large, white, bland face under the square, wry blackcrewcut and the heavy, squat nose. The middle-aged fat of authority? C'mon, that's just the average middle-aged guy who once did sports but now ist just overweight and miserable. Or do you mean the lean, aristocratic Bloffeld with the greying hair? Not a match on scarred and burned Drax, no? Bunt is hardly extraordinary for a middle-aged woman I think. If you think she's deformed, well, can't say I see it.

    You haven't read it. Blofeld has no scar save from his nose in ohmss, but he's depicted as larger than life, to a shakesperean degree. His mouth is like a badly healed wound, his eyes deep pools,,etc.
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    the eyes and scarred nose being enough. And the eyes he hid behind tinted lenses in OHMSS. much more interesting for me was the samurai fetish and the beekeeper dress, great stuff.

    Yeah, whatever... I suggest you air out you head a bit, must have gotten stuck in a tight place... :)
  • patb wrote: »
    Well thats the issue, he tried to link appearance to nature but not based on anything other than the values we place. Someone having one eye has nothing to do whatsover with their nature.

    One of the worst bits of "common knowledge" is that "you can't judge a book by its cover." More often than not, one's appearance is very indicative of their character. And as regards deformities, it's not a stretch that such a feature could cause one to be somewhat shunned and therefrom, to become resentful. It is not infrequent to encounter this in poor souls who are wheelchair-bound.

  • Campbell2 wrote: »
    Why not? Depends how convincing it's written IMO. Was that Trevanian who once had a baddie obsessed with fitness and good looks?

    Yes. A guy named Strange. May have been in The Eiger Sanction.

  • edited January 2015 Posts: 4,615
    Remarkable stuff from Khan, I see those poor, deformed souls in wheel chairs in a new light, is this how Fleming was thinking when he created his characters?
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 15,117
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Which do you mean? The large, white, bland face under the square, wry blackcrewcut and the heavy, squat nose. The middle-aged fat of authority? C'mon, that's just the average middle-aged guy who once did sports but now ist just overweight and miserable. Or do you mean the lean, aristocratic Bloffeld with the greying hair? Not a match on scarred and burned Drax, no? Bunt is hardly extraordinary for a middle-aged woman I think. If you think she's deformed, well, can't say I see it.

    You haven't read it. Blofeld has no scar save from his nose in ohmss, but he's depicted as larger than life, to a shakesperean degree. His mouth is like a badly healed wound, his eyes deep pools,,etc.
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    the eyes and scarred nose being enough. And the eyes he hid behind tinted lenses in OHMSS. much more interesting for me was the samurai fetish and the beekeeper dress, great stuff.

    Yeah, whatever... I suggest you air out you head a bit, must have gotten stuck in a tight place... :)

    Nope, I do know a thing or two about literature. Like I said, you haven't read it. Or paid attention. Not my problem. But here is an abridged description of Blofeld from TB:

    'Blofeld's own eyes were deep black pools surrounded -totally surrounded, as Mussoloni's were- by very clear whites. The doll-like effect of this unusual symmetry was enhanced by long silken black eyelashes that should have belonged to a woman. The gaze of these soft doll's eyes was totally relaxed and rarely held any expression stronger than the mild curiosity in the object of their focus. (...)Blofeld's gaze was a microscope, the window on the world on a superbly clear brain, with a focus that had been sharpened by thirty years of danger and of keeping just one step ahead of it (...)

    The skin beneath the eyes that now slowly, mildly, surveyed his colleagues was unpouched. There was no sign of debauchery, illness, or old age on the large, white, bland face under the square, wiry black crew-cut The jawline, going on the appropriate middle-aged fat of authority, showed decision and independence. Only the mouth under a heavy, squat nose, marred what might have been the face of a philosopher or a scientist. Proud and thin, like a badly-healed wound, the compressed, dark lips, capable of only false, ugly smiles, suggested contempt, tyranny, and cruelty. But to an almost Shakespearian degree. Nothing about Blofeld was small.
    ''

    Yeah, you are right. Just your average Joe. And he does not have a scar. Because he does not need a scar: Fleming pretty much describes him as an exceptional man whose appearance illustrates his exceptional, evil nature. He spends pages describing him. He does this for every single villain. Oh and in recent years, the bleeding eye of Le Chiffre, the overall appearance of Silva (inspired by Hugo Drax's?), heck, even Elvis's ridiculous hairdo, they are all direct use of Fleming's tropes regarding the villains. Barely modernized. Again, if you can't see it, it's not my problem.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    When we say people look evil, there is a reason why we think that way. It is because evil-looking people are evil more often than not. Hence the expression and connection.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    When we say people look evil, there is a reason why we think that way. It is because evil-looking people are evil more often than not. Hence the expression and connection.

    Whisper than to a Professor of Criminology though...
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 4,615
    So disabled or disfigured people are evil more often than not? I hope there are not any disabled Bond fans reading this stuff. The Victorians thought there was a link and you can see sketches of what Victorian criminologist thought evil looked like. Thank fully, we have moved on.
    PS and I suppose Stephen Hawking must be REALLY evil? and my God, how much collective evil was there at the 2012 Paralympics?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I am not talking about crime, but evil. Not the same thing even if they can overlap.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Which do you mean? The large, white, bland face under the square, wry blackcrewcut and the heavy, squat nose. The middle-aged fat of authority? C'mon, that's just the average middle-aged guy who once did sports but now ist just overweight and miserable. Or do you mean the lean, aristocratic Bloffeld with the greying hair? Not a match on scarred and burned Drax, no? Bunt is hardly extraordinary for a middle-aged woman I think. If you think she's deformed, well, can't say I see it.

    You haven't read it. Blofeld has no scar save from his nose in ohmss, but he's depicted as larger than life, to a shakesperean degree. His mouth is like a badly healed wound, his eyes deep pools,,etc.
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    the eyes and scarred nose being enough. And the eyes he hid behind tinted lenses in OHMSS. much more interesting for me was the samurai fetish and the beekeeper dress, great stuff.

    Yeah, whatever... I suggest you air out you head a bit, must have gotten stuck in a tight place... :)

    For the record the Blofeld of OHMSS actually had the badge of tertiary syphilis on his nose.
  • Posts: 15,117
    And even in Die Hard, they cast for villains actors who looked menacing, even for the extras. I said before, the banality of evil can work beautifully too, for example in the novels of Elmore Leonard, when many villains are low life thugs and losers. But in the Bond universe there is a dimension of baroque and benign bizarre that is reflected with the villains.
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