What went wrong with QUANTUM OF SOLACE?

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  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    I felt fairly satisfied that we got some answers about Vesper's betrayal and why she became a traitor. Though, I think NTTD may answer more about Bond's lack of ability to save or help her. Hence, the whole 'Forgive Me' scene in Matera.

    That was already explained in CR by M on the phone. The only thing QoS did was putting the whole thing more into contest, showing that her boyfriend was a liar and a member of the organization.

    Then Bond in CR did everything he could possibly do to save her. There's no way he feels responsible for her death, especially since she decided to commit suicide preventing him to save her. In fact, in CR he was so angry for being betrayed by Vesper that he would've been able to even kill her, at the beginning of the shootout.

    The forgive me note is gonna be about Bond feeling guilty for not being able to forgive her for what she did. After her death he never really made peace with the fact that she cheated on him and that is the emotional foundation of QoS. Bond was never able to really understand what she did and forgive her because he felt she used him. He opened up, took out the armor for the first time in his life and then his feelings were used against him. He finally moves forward with Vesper at the end of QoS because he understands that she was used too, just like him, but throughout the film Bond not being able to forgive her is an important theme and that anger is what makes him consistently close to cross the line in his job. But that is not enough to heal such a wound. And this is where Dr. Swann steps up.

    There's a pivotal line by Mathis in QoS that sums everything up and that is gonna be thematically relevant in NTTD: She gave everything for you. Forgive her. Forgive yourself.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2021 Posts: 6,288
    On the other hand, Vesper removed the necklace and made a deal with the organization to spare his life in CR. She didn't feel like she could save herself from the organization, though, so she killed herself.

    So there's evidence in CR that Bond didn't even need to go on an anger-based mission in QoS. And that the Craig era has been needlessly emotionally complicated by the writers.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited August 2021 Posts: 4,343
    echo wrote: »
    On the other hand, Vesper removed the necklace and made a deal with the organization to spare his life in CR. She didn't feel like she could save herself from the organization, though, so she killed herself.

    So there's evidence in CR that Bond didn't even need to go on an anger-based mission in QoS. And that the Craig era has been needlessly emotionally complicated by the writers.

    Bond wasn’t able to forgive her because she lied to him and she used his feelings against him. At the beginning of QoS he has all the reasons in the world to be angry. He makes totally peace with her betrayal once he finds out she was used too, just like him, even tho he starts to do that during the course of the film speaking with Mathis, that in this film represents the voice of reason.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2021 Posts: 6,288
    He already knows why Vesper betrayed him (her boyfriend was blackmailing her), and that she tried to save him (she cut a deal to deliver the money in Venice to save his life), from his conversation with M in CR.

    Significantly, Bond does *not* know any of this this when he angrily shoots at Vesper in Venice.

    QoS is about Bond verifying that information (and confronting her ex-boyfriend, catharsis for Bond), but he already knew everything in CR.

    So in a way CR never needed a sequel. We could have jumped from the end of CR to a standalone (or at least non-Vesper) mission.
  • Posts: 2,162
    Ultimately, the production time factors didnt help.

    1. Sony wanting the movie out initially in May 2008, only 18 months after CR. Eventually they moved it to November 2008.
    2. Purvis and Wade not starting a treatment until July 2006.
    3. Forster joining July 2007, giving him five months of prep and script development. Not much.
    4. Writers Strike beginning November 2007, so they only had four months script development.
    5. It being a $220m mega budget film.

    So for a film that was in effect “made” in five months, it turned out alright.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited August 2021 Posts: 4,343
    echo wrote: »
    He already knows why Vesper betrayed him (her boyfriend was blackmailing her), and that she tried to save him (she cut a deal to deliver the money in Venice to save his life), from his conversation with M in CR.

    Significantly, Bond does *not* know any of this this when he angrily shoots at Vesper in Venice.

    QoS is about Bond verifying that information (and confronting her ex-boyfriend, catharsis for Bond), but he already knew everything in CR.

    So in a way CR never needed a sequel. We could have jumped from the end of CR to a standalone (or at least non-Vesper) mission.

    Not correct.
    In CR M tells him Vesper’s boyfriend was kidnapped by the organization and she made a deal with them to save him. M also tells him Vesper and her French-Algerian boyfriend were very much in love. Bond finds out the truth about Yusuf seducing women only in QoS. Vesper never knew the truth about Yusuf and Bond definitely didn’t knew all the truth by the end of CR.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    Vesper was in love with her boyfriend (CR)...and apparently it was not reciprocated (QoS). All that tells Bond in QoS is that Vesper was duped by her boyfriend and Quantum.

    But QoS doesn't change anything about his relationship with Vesper...certainly not to merit two to three more films about it.
  • Posts: 15,114
    I think making a sequel of sorts to CR was actually the logical thing to do, given that they had introduced a shadowy organisation in CR. Whether the sequel we got was the sequel we needed is another debate entirely. But I do like QOS, in spite of its flaws.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think making a sequel of sorts to CR was actually the logical thing to do, given that they had introduced a shadowy organisation in CR. Whether the sequel we got was the sequel we needed is another debate entirely. But I do like QOS, in spite of its flaws.

    I think it should have been a sequel in the same sense LALD novel was. It still follows up on Bond hungry for a little payback against the organization. It’s just not set literally minutes after the preceding novel.

    Also, I absolutely LOATHE the name “Quantum”. Imagine if they didn’t bother naming it, that would have allowed them to simply name them SPECTRE later on without any contrivances. They’re basically the same type of organization already anyway.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    Yes, I'd prefer if they didn't name Quantum either.

    They just needed a short scene with someone (M? Mathis?) to explain the "quantum of solace"--perhaps in the "uncontrollable rage" scene.

    Dench could have pulled off that phrase...title, check. And move on. Like Dalton in The Living Daylights.
  • Posts: 1,394
    I actually think the M and Bond scene in the hotel is ridiculous.First she has Bond taken into custody and says “When you don’t know who to trust it’s time to go “.

    About 30 seconds later when Bond beats up the other agents and escapes she says “ He’s my agent, and I trust him “.

    ???
  • Posts: 15,114
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think making a sequel of sorts to CR was actually the logical thing to do, given that they had introduced a shadowy organisation in CR. Whether the sequel we got was the sequel we needed is another debate entirely. But I do like QOS, in spite of its flaws.

    I think it should have been a sequel in the same sense LALD novel was. It still follows up on Bond hungry for a little payback against the organization. It’s just not set literally minutes after the preceding novel.

    Also, I absolutely LOATHE the name “Quantum”. Imagine if they didn’t bother naming it, that would have allowed them to simply name them SPECTRE later on without any contrivances. They’re basically the same type of organization already anyway.

    Well, that may be for the controversial thread, but I don't mind they used Quantum as a name by default and I don't mind that it's revealed to be SPECTRE in the end, when they finally got the rights. But yes, a sequel a la LALD, set later in time, would have been what I'd preferred.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think making a sequel of sorts to CR was actually the logical thing to do, given that they had introduced a shadowy organisation in CR. Whether the sequel we got was the sequel we needed is another debate entirely. But I do like QOS, in spite of its flaws.

    I think it should have been a sequel in the same sense LALD novel was. It still follows up on Bond hungry for a little payback against the organization. It’s just not set literally minutes after the preceding novel.

    Also, I absolutely LOATHE the name “Quantum”. Imagine if they didn’t bother naming it, that would have allowed them to simply name them SPECTRE later on without any contrivances. They’re basically the same type of organization already anyway.

    Well, that may be for the controversial thread, but I don't mind they used Quantum as a name by default and I don't mind that it's revealed to be SPECTRE in the end, when they finally got the rights. But yes, a sequel a la LALD, set later in time, would have been what I'd preferred.

    Actually Quantum is just part of the bigger SPECTRE organization, not actually SPECTRE.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I actually think the M and Bond scene in the hotel is ridiculous.First she has Bond taken into custody and says “When you don’t know who to trust it’s time to go “.

    About 30 seconds later when Bond beats up the other agents and escapes she says “ He’s my agent, and I trust him “.

    ???

    I think the fact he comes up to her and asks that Fields gets posthumous compliments rather than just take off without a word is what convinces M that Bond IS dedicated to his duty. It’s flimsy, but it’s something. But that just gets into how this film really needed like an extra six months of pre-production to finesse the script. It’s barely holding together as it is, and the editing choices by Marc Forster doesn’t help.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,779
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I actually think the M and Bond scene in the hotel is ridiculous.First she has Bond taken into custody and says “When you don’t know who to trust it’s time to go “.

    About 30 seconds later when Bond beats up the other agents and escapes she says “ He’s my agent, and I trust him “.

    ???
    I think the fact he comes up to her and asks that Fields gets posthumous compliments rather than just take off without a word is what convinces M that Bond IS dedicated to his duty. It’s flimsy, but it’s something. But that just gets into how this film really needed like an extra six months of pre-production to finesse the script. It’s barely holding together as it is, and the editing choices by Marc Forster doesn’t help.

    That scene plays great for me. Bond passing his final test.

    He's going to do his job regardless. In spite of MI6. In spite of M if needed. That's what warrants her approval.

    It's also what Mallory M has to learn at the start SP and after. Bond's real usefulness is extinguished if M knows all he does. M simply has to trust his judgment based on history and his proven effectiveness.

  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    To this day, I still can't figure out Vesper's role in everything and how she fit in with LeChiffre and Mr. White. Furthermore, QoS didn't quite explain for me how Mathis was suddenly innocent. LeChiffre called him "My friend Mathis." Right?
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    I really love the movie - so like someone already said on this thread: The film has it‘s fan base and I also expect it to grow over time.

    I don‘t like but also don‘t mind the title song - the score however is excellent. Hell - and I even like the plot and am not ashamed for it. I find it believeable and this suits the Craig era and how the approached Bond and his world very good.

    The only thing I would really like to see (and the only Bond film I would want it for) is a recut. Slowing down the action by a fee frames here and there … a bit more shots taking more time to appreciate all those great locations would make the movie even more enjoyable and remove the (in my book) only real flaw it has.
  • I don’t mind the fast cuts so much as the frequent 180 line jumps in the action. I mentioned this on Reddit but I rewatched a couple clips from the movie and both of them had moments where the 180 degree rule is broken and Bond changes sides of the screen for no discernible reason. It’s an issue that’s compounded by the quick edits to make the spatial relations needlessly confusing, and I can’t fathom why they did it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    They needed to cut one, maybe two, action scenes and give us more drama.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,031
    Agree 100%… smooth out the action cuts, add more drama, longer establishing shots, etc. Flesh it out!

    Should start campaign:
    #ForsterCut2022

    We all need to remind Forster how beloved QOS is…
  • Posts: 618
    Agree 100%… smooth out the action cuts, add more drama, longer establishing shots, etc. Flesh it out!
    That, and:
    Change the colors of the cars chasing Bond in the PTS: make them red and/or white, blue... anything but the same color as Bond's Aston.

  • Posts: 6,709
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    Agree 100%… smooth out the action cuts, add more drama, longer establishing shots, etc. Flesh it out!
    That, and:
    Change the colors of the cars chasing Bond in the PTS: make them red and/or white, blue... anything but the same color as Bond's Aston.

    Alfa rosso ;)
  • Posts: 15,114
    matt_u wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think making a sequel of sorts to CR was actually the logical thing to do, given that they had introduced a shadowy organisation in CR. Whether the sequel we got was the sequel we needed is another debate entirely. But I do like QOS, in spite of its flaws.

    I think it should have been a sequel in the same sense LALD novel was. It still follows up on Bond hungry for a little payback against the organization. It’s just not set literally minutes after the preceding novel.

    Also, I absolutely LOATHE the name “Quantum”. Imagine if they didn’t bother naming it, that would have allowed them to simply name them SPECTRE later on without any contrivances. They’re basically the same type of organization already anyway.

    Well, that may be for the controversial thread, but I don't mind they used Quantum as a name by default and I don't mind that it's revealed to be SPECTRE in the end, when they finally got the rights. But yes, a sequel a la LALD, set later in time, would have been what I'd preferred.

    Actually Quantum is just part of the bigger SPECTRE organization, not actually SPECTRE.

    Yes but that was retconned and never made clear in the movies.
  • Posts: 2,162
    Ludovico wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think making a sequel of sorts to CR was actually the logical thing to do, given that they had introduced a shadowy organisation in CR. Whether the sequel we got was the sequel we needed is another debate entirely. But I do like QOS, in spite of its flaws.

    I think it should have been a sequel in the same sense LALD novel was. It still follows up on Bond hungry for a little payback against the organization. It’s just not set literally minutes after the preceding novel.

    Also, I absolutely LOATHE the name “Quantum”. Imagine if they didn’t bother naming it, that would have allowed them to simply name them SPECTRE later on without any contrivances. They’re basically the same type of organization already anyway.

    Well, that may be for the controversial thread, but I don't mind they used Quantum as a name by default and I don't mind that it's revealed to be SPECTRE in the end, when they finally got the rights. But yes, a sequel a la LALD, set later in time, would have been what I'd preferred.

    Actually Quantum is just part of the bigger SPECTRE organization, not actually SPECTRE.

    Yes but that was retconned and never made clear in the movies.

    All Mr White had to say was “following your intervention in Bolivia, Quantum had a hostile takeover by Oberhauser and became Spectre”.

    Wasnt that hard.
  • Posts: 9,846
    Nothing it was a fantastic film my issues with it are extremely minor Specifically

    I wish they included a bit more of the short story specifically

    The main villains name should of been Phillip Masters
    Camillie or Fields should of been named Rhoda Llewellyn


    and yes its just grabing character names without them being similar to the characters of the short story but one could write a thesis how Hugo Drax was used 3 times but interesting villains like the Spangs were largely ignored..



    Again my issue with the Craig era is and this will seem controversial but if there was ever an actor worthy of facing off against Fleming Characters it was Craig and while at least his first 2 films were named after Fleming Novels/short stories its when we hit Skyfall that I feel things take a turn for the worst but this is about Quantum and again Apart from a few more nods to the short story I love the film
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2021 Posts: 6,288
    I think there was a way to incorporate more of the short story into the film, either with Mathis or M. Probably M since "Quantum of Solace" is a mouthful, but if anyone could sell it, it's Dame Judi.

    Let's face it, it was always going to be a clunky title, and it's nothing short of amazing that they actually used it.
  • Posts: 15,114
    Mallory wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think making a sequel of sorts to CR was actually the logical thing to do, given that they had introduced a shadowy organisation in CR. Whether the sequel we got was the sequel we needed is another debate entirely. But I do like QOS, in spite of its flaws.

    I think it should have been a sequel in the same sense LALD novel was. It still follows up on Bond hungry for a little payback against the organization. It’s just not set literally minutes after the preceding novel.

    Also, I absolutely LOATHE the name “Quantum”. Imagine if they didn’t bother naming it, that would have allowed them to simply name them SPECTRE later on without any contrivances. They’re basically the same type of organization already anyway.

    Well, that may be for the controversial thread, but I don't mind they used Quantum as a name by default and I don't mind that it's revealed to be SPECTRE in the end, when they finally got the rights. But yes, a sequel a la LALD, set later in time, would have been what I'd preferred.

    Actually Quantum is just part of the bigger SPECTRE organization, not actually SPECTRE.

    Yes but that was retconned and never made clear in the movies.

    All Mr White had to say was “following your intervention in Bolivia, Quantum had a hostile takeover by Oberhauser and became Spectre”.

    Wasnt that hard.

    Oh I agree, but like I said I'm not too fussed about it.
  • Posts: 4,408
    matt_u wrote: »
    I felt fairly satisfied that we got some answers about Vesper's betrayal and why she became a traitor. Though, I think NTTD may answer more about Bond's lack of ability to save or help her. Hence, the whole 'Forgive Me' scene in Matera.

    That was already explained in CR by M on the phone. The only thing QoS did was putting the whole thing more into contest, showing that her boyfriend was a liar and a member of the organization.

    Then Bond in CR did everything he could possibly do to save her. There's no way he feels responsible for her death, especially since she decided to commit suicide preventing him to save her. In fact, in CR he was so angry for being betrayed by Vesper that he would've been able to even kill her, at the beginning of the shootout.

    The forgive me note is gonna be about Bond feeling guilty for not being able to forgive her for what she did. After her death he never really made peace with the fact that she cheated on him and that is the emotional foundation of QoS. Bond was never able to really understand what she did and forgive her because he felt she used him. He opened up, took out the armor for the first time in his life and then his feelings were used against him. He finally moves forward with Vesper at the end of QoS because he understands that she was used too, just like him, but throughout the film Bond not being able to forgive her is an important theme and that anger is what makes him consistently close to cross the line in his job. But that is not enough to heal such a wound. And this is where Dr. Swann steps up.

    There's a pivotal line by Mathis in QoS that sums everything up and that is gonna be thematically relevant in NTTD: She gave everything for you. Forgive her. Forgive yourself.

    Interesting take.....You could well be right. However, if you want to further your theory, I think you have to take a lot of what Bond says to M as factual. Especially comments including, 'The bitch is dead' and 'He's not important...and neither was she.' However, we all know that he really doesn't mean what he's saying.

    In front of M, he always plays the 'tough guy'. M is no different. She tends to play the cold matriarch. Neither really lets the other one in. It's very British in that sense. The only occasions where M reveals her feelings to Bond is that 'I knew you were you' line in CR (which Dench fought Campbell to remove as it felt out of character) and 'I need you back' in QOS. This is all prior to SF of course.

    I think it's clear that Bond feels guilt for not saving Vesper. She was the enigma that he couldn't decipher. Though her suicide likely was a very spontaneous and rash decision made in the moment - albeit an understandable one. He should have known, he should have protected her. He missed the signs and blamed Mathis. Even if Bond wasn't directly responsible, I can only imagine that he blames himself immensely.

    no-time-to-die-note-1581673336.jpg?resize=480:*
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,779
    Agree on Bond doing everything humanly possible and more to save Vesper--failing completely is part of what he can't let go. And he blames himself, yes.

    22-Quantum.of.Solace.2008.720p.BluRay.nHD.x264-NhaNc3.mkv_006090189.jpg?type=w2
    Goldfinger, Ian Fleming, 1958.
    Chapter 16 - The Last and the Biggest
    THE WINGS of a dove, the heavenly choir, Hark the Herald Angels Sing - what else ought he to remember about Paradise? It was all so exactly like what he had been told in the nursery - this sensation of flying, the darkness, the drone of the million harps. He really must try and remember the dope about the place. Let's see now, one got to the Pearly Gates...

    A deep fatherly voice said, almost in his ear, 'This is your captain speaking.' (Well, well. Who was this. Saint Peter?) 'We are coming in to land now. Will you please fasten your seat belts and extinguish your cigarettes. Thank you.'

    There must be a whole lot of them, going up together. Would Tilly be on the same trip? Bond squirmed with embarrassment. How would he introduce her to the others, to Vesper for instance? And when it came to the point, which would he like the best? But perhaps it would be a big place with countries and towns. There was probably no more reason why he should run into one of his former girl friends here than there had been on earth. But still there were a lot of people he'd better avoid until he got settled in and found out the form. Perhaps, with so much love about, these things wouldn't matter. Perhaps one just loved all the girls one met. Hm. Tricky business.

    With these unworthy thoughts in his mind, Bond relapsed into unconsciousness.

    TTx4-BLpedeM_HTfEEt6ce3coWj8tvVF-f-taYvJbT3mHta1wKaFP0-f8zoVYylnaYrlGaIbeAOKmwqFfBWxujlMbKmhpCgXiV4G_3c_aS7hBpt00bT1Wt2hLxZunFtuag
    On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Ian Fleming, 1963.
    Chapter 2 - Gran Turismo
    He leaned forward and flicked down the red switch. The moan of the blower died away and there was silence in the car as he motored along, easing his tense muscles. He wondered if the supercharger had damaged the engine. Against the solemn warnings of Rolls-Royce, he had had fitted, by his pet expert at the Headquarters' motor pool, an Arnott supercharger controlled by a magnetic clutch. Rolls-Royce had said the crankshaft bearings wouldn't take the extra load and, when he confessed to them what he had done, they regretfully but firmly withdrew their guarantees and washed their hands of their bastardized child. This was the first time he had notched 125 and the rev. counter had hovered dangerously over the red area at 4500. But the temperature and oil were OK and there were no expensive noises. And, by God, it had been fun!

    James Bond idled through the pretty approaches to Royale, through the young beeches and the heavy-scented pines, looking forward to the evening and remembering his other annual pilgrimages to this place and, particularly, the great battle across the baize he had had with Le Chiffre so many years ago. He had come a long way since then, dodged many bullets and much death and loved many girls, but there had been a drama and a poignancy about that particular adventure that every year drew him back to Royale and its casino and to the small granite cross in the little churchyard that simply said 'Vesper Lynd. RIP.'

    And now what was the place holding for him on this beautiful September evening? A big win? A painful loss? A beautiful girl - that beautiful girl?
    small-Rolls-Royce-Cloud.png

  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,031
    Does anyone know how much unused footage there is for QOS?
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