Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

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  • Posts: 5,767
    You seem to think I enjoy disliking this film, when in reality it pains me heavily.

    This is what I don't think that BvS defenders understand. I've seen so many concise arguments that talk about the disappointment they felt with the movie, with how the movie could have been better and that there are good things about it, arguments I've also made, but then the BvS defenders just come in and defend it with "Well, I like it so nyeh." They seem to believe that people shit on BvS just to hate on it, which is not the case most of the time.

    If Batman were less homicidal, Lex were less narm and Doomsday not in the movie, it would be 200% better.
    Haha, who needs arguments if he likes the film ;-)? I watched it again the other day, and I again found it very enjoyable.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I think the biggest problem with the movie is it's trying so hard to be the next Watchmen. Seriously, I was getting some serious Dr. Manhattan vibes from Supes and Batman was more or less the Comedian which is funny because the actual Comedian, Jeffery Dean Morgan played Thomas Wayne. Coincidence? I think not. ;)

    It's definitely Batman and Superman viewed through the prism of Watchmen, but even in the original source material that is The Dark Knight Returns, which came out and captivated the public around the exact same time as Watchmen did in 1986-87, there are comparisons that can be made between them. Alan Moore and Frank Miller were playing with similar ideas/story arcs.

    Dr. Manhattan and Superman are both superpowered god-like figures placed under the control of the American government, and Batman and Rorschach are the respective heroes who refuse to give up crime fighting even when these superpowered beings are urging them do, in addition to other factors in their societies. Vigilantism is viewed as a crime on the grandest scale, and they depict societies on the brink of collapse. Supporting heroes in each story have long been retired, the final acts of the stories end in a snowy setting, and the conclusions of each story, while up in the air/open-ended, carry some hope and optimism to them despite the dark worlds they portray.

    Watchmen and TDKR show that we need these heroes as a society, but what does BvS have to teach us? That doing good things only brings bad? That it's impossible to stay good in a world where bad exists? At times it tries to teach us that judging a book by its cover is wrong and that absolute power doesn't have to corrupt absolutely, but those messages get lost in the mess created by the rest of its indulgent, pseudo-complex misery.

    Oh I known it's very loosely based on TDKR which is my favorite DC Animated movie, but I just couldn't help but think that The Snyderverse is trying so hard to be Watchmen 2.0 that it falls flat.

    @Murdock, Snyder likes to say he based the film in part on TDKR, but none of it is in there; not its heart at least. He rips off the visuals of the comic book, but retains none of the meaning behind those images. A fight of ideologies between Batman and Superman is downgraded to a one sided bout where Superman only had to say, "Lex has my mother" to end it all. The 'I believe you' sequence ripped from the part where Bruce fires a gun at a Mutant to save a child was robbed of its emotion and impact when applied to KGBeast threatening Ma Kent because up until that point in the movie, Affleck's Batman had wracked up a body count that would make even Jason Vorhees blush. Anyway, you get my point...
    boldfinger wrote: »
    You seem to think I enjoy disliking this film, when in reality it pains me heavily.

    This is what I don't think that BvS defenders understand. I've seen so many concise arguments that talk about the disappointment they felt with the movie, with how the movie could have been better and that there are good things about it, arguments I've also made, but then the BvS defenders just come in and defend it with "Well, I like it so nyeh." They seem to believe that people shit on BvS just to hate on it, which is not the case most of the time.

    If Batman were less homicidal, Lex were less narm and Doomsday not in the movie, it would be 200% better.
    Haha, who needs arguments if he likes the film ;-)? I watched it again the other day, and I again found it very enjoyable.

    @boldfinger, I think @Agent007391's opinion may be down to the fact that the dissenters of BvS are constantly asked to argue their position and give their reasoning to explain their views on the movie, while its proponents can often play the part of crickets.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I noticed all the TDKR moments and I liked them and frankly I wish the whole movie was just a live action version of TDKR.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    boldfinger wrote: »
    You seem to think I enjoy disliking this film, when in reality it pains me heavily.

    This is what I don't think that BvS defenders understand. I've seen so many concise arguments that talk about the disappointment they felt with the movie, with how the movie could have been better and that there are good things about it, arguments I've also made, but then the BvS defenders just come in and defend it with "Well, I like it so nyeh." They seem to believe that people shit on BvS just to hate on it, which is not the case most of the time.

    If Batman were less homicidal, Lex were less narm and Doomsday not in the movie, it would be 200% better.
    Haha, who needs arguments if he likes the film ;-)? I watched it again the other day, and I again found it very enjoyable.

    Because defending it by saying "Well, I like it so nyeh", which is what 90% of BvS supporters do, suggests to me that they either don't understand the arguments against it or ignorant of it. I don't care if you like it. I don't care if you love it. Understand the flaws and stop claiming they're strengths because they are not. Nothing is perfect, and this film is no exception.

    When Superman is stripped of his hopefulness and turned into a mopey shit, that's not brilliant characterization, that's ignoring the thing the character was created to be. When Batman is killing people left and right, that's outright ignoring the lesson he learned when his parents died, that is bastardizing the character to the greatest degree. Lex Luthor is turned from a great, intelligent villain into someone basically holding a sign that says "I'm a nutjob!" His plot is nonsensical and that's before Doomsday becomes a part of it.

    There are things I enjoyed about the movie. Despite the bastardization of Batman's character, Ben Affleck played him remarkably well. I can't wait for a movie where he's playing the character the right way. Jeremy Irons' casting as Alfred is a masterstroke, and is worthy of an award. Gal Gadot was exceptional as Wonder Woman, the character was just useless to the overall throughline of the plot. Laurence Fishburne is great as Perry White and was in Man of Steel as well. There are good things about this movie, they're just buried in so much shit. For every good idea this movie has, it has twenty bad ones covering them up and saying "Look at me, look at me!"

    This movie deserved better. It deserved to be better. Defend it all you like, but give me good, concise, intelligent arguments for your points. Because 90% of BvS supporters don't. And that's the biggest tragedy of this movie.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Murdock wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I noticed all the TDKR moments and I liked them and frankly I wish the whole movie was just a live action version of TDKR.

    @Murdock, at least we have the animated movies. Snyder can't take those away from us, though let's not give him any ideas as it is.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Murdock wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I noticed all the TDKR moments and I liked them and frankly I wish the whole movie was just a live action version of TDKR.

    @Murdock, at least we have the animated movies. Snyder can't take those away from us, though let's not give him any ideas as it is.

    Agreed. Hopefully we can get this Watchmen cartoon. :))
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Murdock, that's easily one of the greatest things ever created by mankind.

    I'd watch that show in a heartbeat, for Rorschach and his dogs alone.

    "I'm nutty!" 8-}
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 5,767
    When Superman is stripped of his hopefulness and turned into a mopey shit, that's not brilliant characterization, that's ignoring the thing the character was created to be. When Batman is killing people left and right, that's outright ignoring the lesson he learned when his parents died, that is bastardizing the character to the greatest degree. Lex Luthor is turned from a great, intelligent villain into someone basically holding a sign that says "I'm a nutjob!" His plot is nonsensical and that's before Doomsday becomes a part of it.
    I´m not familiar with the comic book characters. Superman struggling with finding his place in earth´s society the way it´s depicted is interesting to me. Batman fighting an horde of goons shooting at him to kill him and shooting some in the process sounds only logical. What else should he do if he doesn´t want to get killed? I cannot explain why I enjoyed Lex Luthor in this film, normally I´m not at all a fan of Eisenberg, but somehow I found his extreme craziness highly entertaining.
    There are things I enjoyed about the movie. Despite the bastardization of Batman's character, Ben Affleck played him remarkably well. I can't wait for a movie where he's playing the character the right way. Jeremy Irons' casting as Alfred is a masterstroke, and is worthy of an award. Gal Gadot was exceptional as Wonder Woman, the character was just useless to the overall throughline of the plot. Laurence Fishburne is great as Perry White and was in Man of Steel as well. There are good things about this movie, they're just buried in so much shit. For every good idea this movie has, it has twenty bad ones covering them up and saying "Look at me, look at me!"

    This movie deserved better. It deserved to be better. Defend it all you like, but give me good, concise, intelligent arguments for your points. Because 90% of BvS supporters don't. And that's the biggest tragedy of this movie.
    It is by no way a tragedy if the supporters don´t give concise, intelligent arguments. It´s only natural that it´s easier to rationalise not liking something.
    At all, concise is not the word that comes to mind when reading the posts in this thread that express dislike of BvS.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I noticed all the TDKR moments and I liked them and frankly I wish the whole movie was just a live action version of TDKR.

    @Murdock, at least we have the animated movies. Snyder can't take those away from us, though let's not give him any ideas as it is.

    Agreed. Hopefully we can get this Watchmen cartoon. :))

    Was this approved by Alan Moore?
  • GettlerGettler USA
    Posts: 326
    So, I got around to watching this the other week, and I can see why its divided among haters and lovers. I didnt love it though. Too many fade-to-black moments for me, especially in the opening. Plot was lacking, story built up to Supes and Bats having an epic brawl, but even that was anticlimactic. Visually interesting. The music too. Technical aspects were alright, but everywhere else dropped for me. Why make Lex so....Jokerlike? It was reaching a little too high there for me. Prefer Kevin Spacey to return.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The real shame of it is that if another actor other than Eisenberg had been hired for Lex who could've played a more "put together" man and not gone crazy and over the top in their performance, that version of Lex would make quite an interesting villain. Bryan Cranston would be too old for it, but someone who could play Lex in the same complex vein of how Cranston would approach the role would've been much better.

    The movie nailed Lex's anti-theism and hatred of Superman because of his god-like presence, but their approach sagged in other areas. What makes their dynamic so great in the comics is that Lex is a devilishly sane man who is at the peak of both physical and mental perfection, and can do evil under a facade of charm and charisma. He's got genius intellect and could face most human men in combat and come out on top. Part of why he despises Superman so is because he has worked to get everything he has, strength and endurance included, while Superman only has his abilities because of a shift in atmosphere and gravity. It's a shame that Eisenberg will never be able to credibly portray the physicality of Lex effectively, especially since he's been written as so wacky and neurotic to top it all off. I don't look forward to seeing him in future DCEU movies, and my enthusiasm for his character is even lower than it is for Leto's Joker.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Since the Eisenberg Lex is Alexander Jr, the best thing they could do to make up for that mistake would be to cast Cranston as Alexander Sr, a more true-to-form Lex.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Agent007391, I think this Jr./Sr. thing largely got propagated because those that like the film found it easier to silence dissenters by saying, "but it's not that Lex, it's that Lex's son." I've not been pointed to anything that would make me think this wasn't the intended Lex we were always supposed to get. And really, he's not far removed from the modern Lex we have anyway, again besides the jitters and chirps Eisenberg made us suffer through in his performance. This is the god-hating, egotistical intellect that we know.

    He's Lex, end of story for me.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Oh, I don't think they intend on giving us another Lex, I'm just saying the door is open for them to correct the mistake, much like Marvel did with the Mandarin between Iron Man 3 and the One Shot All Hail the King.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Lexenberg is the greatest miscast in movie history besides Silva.

    BvS would get infinitely better with someone not so awfully overacting.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Wasn't Lex Sr. dead anyway?
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Ultimate Edition implies he's still alive. Either way, the theatrical version doesn't really refer to him as being dead, it's just easy to believe that he would be.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I heard once from someone who said Lex Sr. died in the Metropolis attack during a building collapse. Can't substantiate the comment, however. Just one thing I recall hearing. I think it's up to us to wonder, until we hear something from the filmmakers.

    Did Snyder do a commentary for either version of BvS that could shed light on this?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    His scene with the senator in his father's study really makes it look like Lex Sr. had passed on, though it could be incorrect. Who's to say. I hope he isn't dead though. I'd much rather have Lex Sr. as a villain instead of crybaby Lex Jr.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    There's no commentary on the theatrical. I don't have the Ultimate Edition, so I'm not sure if there's commentary on that version.

    I just hope that if Lex Sr. is still alive and shows up eventually, they cast a damn fine actor.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    What does it matter.

    Lexenberg can't be undone, no matter if he is Lex Jr. or Sr.

    And if they bring him back in the JL they are out of their minds.

    JL, if they want to have any chance for success, has to be led by Batfleck in the main role.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ranking the Luthors

    1 Kevin Spacey
    2 Gene Hackman
    3 Jesse Wassisberg
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Ranking the Luthors

    1 Kevin Spacey
    2 Gene Hackman
    3 Jesse Wassisberg

    Agree, sure. But...

    1. John Glover
    2. Michael Rosenbaum
    3. Kevin Spacey
    4. Gene Hackman
    5 to 56 all future Luthors.
    57. Lexenberg
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Luthor will be in JL; I'd bet everything on it.
  • Posts: 4,813
    Ranking the Luthors

    1 Kevin Spacey
    2 Gene Hackman
    3 Jesse Wassisberg

    Agree, sure. But...

    1. John Glover
    2. Michael Rosenbaum
    3. Kevin Spacey
    4. Gene Hackman
    5 to 56 all future Luthors.
    57. Lexenberg
    Don't forget the smarmy John Shea! He was actually pretty good too!
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Ranking the Luthors

    1 Kevin Spacey
    2 Gene Hackman
    3 Jesse Wassisberg

    Agree, sure. But...

    1. John Glover
    2. Michael Rosenbaum
    3. Kevin Spacey
    4. Gene Hackman
    5 to 56 all future Luthors.
    57. Lexenberg
    Don't forget the smarmy John Shea! He was actually pretty good too!

    My apologies. Of course John Shea was infinitely better than Lexenberg.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @BondJasonBond006, your ranking is missing Mr. #1 himself: Clancy Brown.

    Lex_Luthor_(Brave_New_Metropolis).png
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @BondJasonBond006, your ranking is missing Mr. #1 himself: Clancy Brown.

    Lex_Luthor_(Brave_New_Metropolis).png

    sheesh...I have to do my homework better next time...

    Here my re-vised ranking of the Luthor's...

    1. John Glover
    2. Clancy Brown
    3. Michael Rosenbaum
    4. Kevin Spacey
    5. Gene Hackman
    6. all actors playing a Luthor in the future
    7. Bloody Lexenberg
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I love Lionel Luthor in Smallville. What a slime ball. I also love that Rosenbaum was playing Lex in Smallville around the very same time he was also playing the animated Flash in the Justice League shows, where he faced off with Lex at intervals of time.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Ranking the Luthors

    1 Kevin Spacey
    2 Gene Hackman
    3 Jesse Wassisberg

    Agree, sure. But...

    1. John Glover
    2. Michael Rosenbaum
    3. Kevin Spacey
    4. Gene Hackman
    5 to 56 all future Luthors.
    57. Lexenberg

    I agree with your 1 and 2. Lionel and Lex from Smallville are the only live action Luthors worth mentioning. They were incredibly well written and wonderfully portrayed and for the most part the best things about Smallville.
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