Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

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  • Posts: 4,044
    00Agent wrote: »
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Yes, some of these critics can be horrible people, who's only contribution to the world is to undermine other peoples good work.

    It is mind boggling to me how a single site like this can jeopardize the success of a movie. Everytime i mention that i love BvS i have to defend myself against people who haven't even seen the movie. Where do they take their confidence from?
    RT will cost WB a couple million, because there are lots of people who don't want to see it just based on these stupid ratings

    Didn't Spectre go though just that. Even if you thought Spectre was rubbish, people staying away because they put faith in a critic's opinion is a bit off. They just might like the movie if they try it.

    mepal1 wrote: »
    I'am confused coz members here say the film is pretty good, yet the critics say the film is utter shite. Who is right, and why such a huge difference of opinion?

    Everyone will have their own opinion. I haven't seen this movie, but was curious as to how it was doing. So I read what people were saying on another forum, and it was largely very negative. Plus those who had gone were saying the screens they were at all gave it a bad reception, including DC fans. So it doesn't seem to be just the critics giving it the thumbs down.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Seeing it in IMAX tonight. Really looking forward to this one.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    The BEST thing I've heard from a trusted source: "It didn't suck."
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    vzok wrote: »

    Didn't Spectre go though just that. Even if you thought Spectre was rubbish, people staying away because they put faith in a critic's opinion is a bit off. They just might like the movie if they try it.

    Yes that was equally infuriating. I was slightly disappointed by Spectre myself initially, but i warmed up to it enormously since then.
    But on RT it is still on 64% and it will stay like that forever and ever.
    And this definitly had an impact on the Box office too
  • Posts: 4,044
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The BEST thing I've heard from a trusted source: "It didn't suck."

    Did it blow?


  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I won't lie I enjoyed this more than I did SP.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    vzok wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The BEST thing I've heard from a trusted source: "It didn't suck."

    Did it blow?
    Is there a meaningful difference? :P
    doubleoego wrote: »
    I won't lie I enjoyed this more than I did SP.
    Who are you and what have you done with our Bond fan????
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    chrisisall wrote: »
    vzok wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The BEST thing I've heard from a trusted source: "It didn't suck."

    Did it blow?
    Is there a meaningful difference? :P
    doubleoego wrote: »
    I won't lie I enjoyed this more than I did SP.
    Who are you and what have you done with our Bond fan????

    I just love Bond more and hold Bond movies to a higher standard. SP really left me disappointed. Crushed but as I'm not as heavily invested in DC characters I give them a bit more leeway. Regardless, from an objective perspective I did find BvS the more entertaining film, however, maybe not necessarily the better film but definitely the more enjoyable and entertaining of the two.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    doubleoego wrote: »
    I just love Bond more and hold Bond movies to a higher standard. SP really left me disappointed. Crushed but as I'm not as heavily invested in DC characters I give them a bit more leeway. Regardless, from an objective perspective I did find BvS the more entertaining film, however, maybe not necessarily the better film but definitely the more enjoyable and entertaining of the two.
    Okay, I get that.
    :)>-
  • Posts: 6,432
    There are moments in this film that far exceed anything done in this genre. There are moments where I was in awe of seeing things on film I never thought I would see. Maybe subtly has alienated the audience, watching this I fully understood what was going on, and can see the broader picture.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    There are moments in this film that far exceed anything done in this genre.
    Are you including The Watchmen or V For Vendetta in that statement?
  • Posts: 6,432
    chrisisall wrote: »
    There are moments in this film that far exceed anything done in this genre.
    Are you including The Watchmen or V For Vendetta in that statement?

    Both those films have great moments, two of my favourite films in the genre. Though some of the imagery and metaphor in BvS is jaw dropping.

  • Posts: 6,432
    There are two shots/scenes that are the total personification of Superman. One reminded me of the shot of Doc Manhattan in the Vietnam war scene from Watchmen.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The Nolan Bat films are a work of art imho.

    The trouble is too many peeps trying to emulate his success. If one doesn't know how to do angst with style, then don't bother, again imho.

    PS: I didn't find BvS all that bad either. Run of the mill superhero stuff. Nothing to write home about, but not the stinker it's being portrayed as. Like I said yesterday, I think they tried to do too much with this film, but given Supes is their only operating franchise, I don't really see how else they could have gone about it, given they are playing catchup with Marvel. Poor planning leads to bungled execution, inevitably.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    Poor planning leads to bungled execution, inevitably.

    Now that really should've been the tagline on SP's poster.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Oh, god, guys. Oh god.

    I waited years and years for this damn film, invested so much time, energy and hope into it, and for what?

    Despite all the reviews, I told myself just like I did with SP, "don't let the negativity eat at you, it's Batman, you'll love it."

    I'm afraid that my reaction is similar to many fans out there: I hate this movie with a passion, but there's a part of me that likes it. Unfortunately, I fear that the former outweighs that by a heavy, heavy margin.

    There is stuff that this film does that are brilliant. The action is insane, the choreography is top notch, the comics allusions are interesting and the visuals amazing. However, the biggest issues remain in other areas. You see, I didn't go to this movie for Superman, or Wonder Woman. I went for Batman.

    Since before I was even able to walk, Batman has been my everything. The figure that I followed religiously, and whose principles and mission I have always appreciated. I went into this movie with everything resting on Batman, and that is why I have come back from the theater disappointed and beyond offended and infuriated with what Snyder and his team have done.

    There is someone in this film with pointy ears and a cape, but for my money, it isn't Batman. Anybody that's read some of Snyder's comments about one big thing Batman does in this film will know where some of my disappoint is coming from. For those that have seen the film, you know quite well that Batman
    kills people in insanely brutal ways
    . I loved this movie until
    the first chase scene with the Batmobile happened where Batman is trying to track the kryptonite, and he absolutely decimates the guys under Lex's employ. During this entire scene, I had a look of complete disappointment on my face as his body count rose. "The Batman I know wouldn't do that," I kept saying over and over. Things only worsen when Batman and Superman actually fight and, savagely, Batman drags Superman to a spot where he can be stabbed by the Kryptonite spear. During this entire scene, again my inner voice said, and I hate to admit this, "I don't like him." After Batman and Superman make up and Batman sets off to save Ma Kent, again he undeniably blows people up without a second thought from the Batwing. At this point in the movie, I'd checked out. This wasn't Batman, and I hadn't been rooting for him for a long time even before that.
    And honestly, if this Batman is so nonchalant about
    killing random thugs with military precision, why hasn't he killed Joker in this universe? If he's fine with blowing up Lex's men, why spare the man who has killed more people close to him than anyone else.
    What a can of garbage it all is.

    What's worse is Snyder's pencil thin argument for
    Batman killing. He doesn't kill for any good reason, and Snyder tries to argue that because Batman never directly kills, only shooting the cars the men are in or around or the elements in their environment, he's not directly responsible. Which is straight up fucking bullshit. During these scenes where Batman does these savage things, my stomach was in knots. It hit me in my core and disturbed me. I was never, ever going to root for this man. His actions had no moral value and he certainly wasn't being any kind of hero I'd support.

    The biggest failure of this movie is the worst failure to have in this genre. As a superhero film, these movies need to show you the hope that these men and women can inspire within the public they serve. You want to find yourself rooting for the heroes as they go out to risk it all to save the world and protect the innocent, respecting human life and the lines that set them apart from the villains they face, making sure not to cross them unless as a last resort.

    Unfortunately, Batman v. Superman is not this kind of film. Leaving this film, I didn't want to think about these versions of Superman or Batman again, nor did I want to see any future films with them in it, Justice League included. They weren't the heroes I grew up with, and I couldn't stomach supporting this film's approach to them beyond the movie ticket I'd already purchased.

    Batman especially was nothing more than the thing he had always fought against in better adaptations of the character, so far removed from who he has always been to me that I can't even stomach how he's been portrayed. Superman and him are both so out of character for so much of this movie, doing things that make me undeserving of the title hero that I can only hang my head in shame. I left the theater beyond disappointed, like I was grieving a lost friend when I really analyzed just how unheroic and downright terrifying and villainous Batman was being and how uncharacteristic Superman was and how little he was standing for the values synonymous with the Man of Steel. There's one scene where Superman
    fully accepts that maybe he does have to be a bad guy. I mean, what the serious fuck is that about?!
    These are not the heroes I grew up with. Far, far from it, actually. Snyder, what the hell have you done?

    I wanted to like this movie more than anything in the world. I wanted to proudly support the coming JLA and Wonder Woman films, and all the rest of the movies building up the DCCU. But here, right at the very beginning, Warner and DC have lost me for good. I can't in good conscience support this utter decimation of my favorite comics characters.

    Marvel, it's all up to you and Civil War now. I'm now questioning why I ever doubted you in the first place. :(

    I think I'm going to have to go watch some Kevin Conroy Batman to get in touch with who the character actually is after this and wash the bad taste out of my mouth that BvS left behind. Goddammit.
  • Posts: 6,432


    Batman kills...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2016 Posts: 28,694
    2 instances from the craptastic Kane era, 1 retcon, one ambiguous tall tale and the one time it was warranted from Morrison's run. Hardly conclusive, eh?

    Batman as he is in my mind grew out of the Denny O'Neil and Neil Adams run. He was reinvigorated as a character who respected human life no matter if the person was an innocent or a criminal. He didn't use guns or kill, because how does that make him any different from Joker or Penguin or Bane or all the rest? He knew nobody had the right to decide who lived and who died, and what he would be and how charred his soul would become if he crossed that line.

    In BvS, that Batman is not present. All that remains is
    a monster who somehow justifies the chaos and murder he unleashes.
    That IS NOT Batman.

    If I want to watch a horrible Batman movie where
    he kills people indiscriminately, I'll pop in Burton's two.
    Except for the fact that I never want to watch that. Because that's not what I think Batman would do.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    This is certainly one of the most polarizing films I've seen. I've just seen it, and as a casual fan I really, really liked it. However, I'm sure that many of the criticisms coming from hardcore Batman fans are justified.
  • Posts: 4,813
    Damn 0Brady, your review has me nervous now. Usually we have the same taste in movies.
    I'm not seeing it till Tuesday, so I didn't read your spoiler tags yet, however I did hear from somewhere else that
    Batman kills people
    .
    Assuming I'm open to that- I should be ok, right?

    Unless there's something in the movie that says otherwise, I'm assuming that
    this is more or less Dark Knight Returns Bats, who didn't necessarily always kill throughout his career
    . Is that correct?

    Man, Tuesday can't get here quick enough. My excitement has turned into simply 'will I love it or hate it?'
    As the bank robber from Dirty Harry said, "I gots ta know"
    36614-5046.gif
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 6,432
    I think the behavior of some of the characters in BvS especially Batmans is extreme, he has a number of visions in the film. The demon Batman or possibly image of Darksied at his parents grave stone is key to one possiblity. That Darkseid is already corrupting souls.
    On a lighter note, just purchased the movie score. The score is fantastic Batmans and WW themes are stand outs.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    This is the older, disillusioned Frank Miller Batman.

    As for reviews, the critics here are very divided. Senior citizen critics call it mediocre and filled with cliches. The somewhat younger critics praise it for it s over-the-topness.
  • jake24 wrote: »
    This is certainly one of the most polarizing films I've seen. I've just seen it, and as a casual fan I really, really liked it. However, I'm sure that many of the criticisms coming from hardcore Batman fans are justified.

    Will now some understand why turning Bond/Blofed into "brothers" is a big problem for some as it is a too big change of character ? :)
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    BvS is polarising because everything Batman is bloody brilliant and everything Superman is bloody crap.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    jake24 wrote: »
    This is certainly one of the most polarizing films I've seen. I've just seen it, and as a casual fan I really, really liked it. However, I'm sure that many of the criticisms coming from hardcore Batman fans are justified.

    Will now some understand why turning Bond/Blofed into "brothers" is a big problem for some as it is a too big change of character ? :)
    No.
    See, I have no problem with
    Batman killing occasionally
    . I have a problem with the tone. If he just
    mows people down
    in a dark & depressing movie, then he's less a hero than a
    Terminator
    .
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I don't see what the big surprise is about
    Batman killing people (even if via collateral damage) in a Snyder film. That happened in the Supes film MoS as well, and was criticized then also, so it should have been expected, given who is in charge here.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't see what the big surprise is about
    Batman killing people (even if via collateral damage) in a Snyder film. That happened in the Supes film MoS as well, and was criticized then also, so it should have been expected, given who is in charge here.

    Yeah, kinda goes with the director territory.
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 12,837
    Haven't seen the film so maybe it's explained but what doesn't make sense to me about that are two things. If he has no problem killing, why are all his enemies still alive? And why doesn't he carry a gun at all? If this Batman doesn't have the same moral code as the others then surely he'd actually carry a weapon? If he's a killer now then the whole running around using his fists and gadgets thing seems dumb and impractical imo.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2016 Posts: 28,694
    @Master_Dahark, yes, that is what has ruined this film for me. It does some interesting stuff, but its horrible treatment of Batman and Superman's characters are beyond unacceptable. I have felt numb since I left the theater, truly haunted by this film.

    This is not The Dark Knight Returns Batman, and not Keaton's either, though I have never liked the latter for the same reason I don't like Affleck's. With the former, he could do brutal things and I could still support his mission. In BvS, I despised this man and how he thought it was okay to solve his problems with missiles and bullets.

    @chrisisall has addressed this issue of Batman in BvS perfectly: this Batman doesn't kill for any good reason, and when he does, he absolutely decimates people off the face of the earth. I could accept Batman killing if it was done like in MoS where Superman had to kill Zod to save thousands. That was a scene with great weight and was interesting, something he had to do for the greater good. If Batman was forced to kill to save someone, that would have been interesting and it would have tested his morality.

    Here, Batman has no moments like that at all. He runs into people's cars with the Batmobile, blowing the vehicle to smithereens as he cruises on, blows people up with missiles from the Batwing, actively uses the guns of others to mow people down, stabs people with knives and using their own military grade explosives to wipe them out, including automatic weapons and grenades. He is perfectly capable of taking them out cleanly, but he doesn't, and the ways in which he does are sadistic and beyond brutal. I can't support this man, and to be perfectly honest, I hate him. I don't know why his rogues gallery are still alive at this point if he's so willing to kill random thugs. Why is Joker alive, of all people? Why hasn't this monster killed him yet for what he's done?

    Some reviews have warned that BvS contains a different Batman than people are accustomed, using that as their excuse for why he's essentially a terrorist in this film, but there comes a point where you can change a character so fundamentally that they aren't that character any longer. I don't know who Affleck plays in this film, but it's not Batman.

    I don't hate Superman as a man in this film as much as Batman, but I do heavily hate how he was developed. I think MoS is great and really cemented who Superman is and why he feels a calling to save earth with the abilities he has. Here, that's all brought crumbling down. He is run through the mud and hated by the people for illogical reasons, who then
    nonsensically love him when he's dead
    , and he is still fighting with himself over whether he should continue being a hero or not and if he's truly a good man. That's right, in this movie Superman looks and Lois and says something along the lines of, "I guess you can't be a good guy forever." Yeah, because Superman, the symbol of truth and justice, protector of the innocent and quintessential boy scout would say that. He wouldn't question the righteousness of his acts, because he knows he's a good man, and he wouldn't go off with the intent to kill someone to save another,
    like he does with Batman
    .

    This film made me hate the heroes just as much as the villains, because the ideals they aspire to are hollow. We have a Superman who is a 180 in character from who he was in MoS, doubting himself and giving in to public hate and the image they're painting of him as a villain, and a Batman who is worse than the rogues gallery he faces. Why would I ever support this film if that's how they're portraying these "heroes?" I wouldn't root for Batman in a second, and I honestly can't believe Superman isn't going after him for what he's doing to people in this film.

    I have a heap of other problems with this movie that absolutely ruin it for me, of plots holes, logical fallacies and heaps of other character related complaints, but for now I wanted to talk about the biggest problem, being that these characters aren't who they are in the comics.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited March 2016 Posts: 9,020
    BvS simply isn't for the masses. It is aimed at the mainstream audience with big budget and hype but shows something that is more in the vein of Watchmen and will appeal to a niche audience.

    In any case I think it can be said that BvS failed miserably. The movie's reputation cannot be turned around and it doesn't really matter how big the BO will be.
    I see a very dark future for the Justice League movies. JL part I definitely will make less money than BvS as everybody will expect it to be more of the same as MoS and BvS. Not good.
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