Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2016 Posts: 28,694
    It's now more clear than ever that the DC cinematic legacy was entrusted to the wrong people. You'd never think that actual comic book fans made this film, because it's so erroneous in its characterizations of the heroes, supporting cast and villains. Nobody feels "right," and the worst offenders are the two we're supposed to be rooting for most, Batman and Superman.

    Not to mention what this film does to decimate (I'm using this word a lot lately) a lot of the future storylines that would make fans go nuts.

    As anyone who has seen the film will know,
    Superman "dies" at the end. The biggest issue with this erroneous move on DC's part is that any weight such an act could deliver is ruined when 1) you haven't shown the public grow a love for Superman, 2) you haven't seen Batman and Wonder Woman create a meaningful relationship with him and 3) by killing him and bringing him back, you ruin any sense of drama it creates, which by the way, isn't much at this point.

    At the end of this movie, apropos of nothing, Batman is suddenly best buds with Supes and declares that the "heroes" (feels wrong to use this word) must all join together and save the earth from future threats. WHAT? Hard to believe, considering the film never has them talking or connecting outside of punching and kicking the shit out of each other. Where did this respect and adoration come from, exactly? Did it fall from the sky?

    The biggest issue here is that DC have already told the death of Superman story, and in such a sloppy fashion to boot. As we all thought from the trailer, Doomsday wasn't a true worthy threat, just a way for Snyder and his team of nitwits to make Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman join together and fight against him. He's poorly used, serves no other purpose beyond that, and they've now thrown away any chance of properly adapting the Death of Superman arc, which is crippling and keeps me up at night.

    Guys, think if DC had waited until after JL part 2 in a Superman solo film to have Doomsday kill him. By that time, Superman would have been loved by the public, his fellow heroes would've admired and respected him, and seeing them all mourn his loss would have been emotional and heart wrenching. But what did they give us instead? The public, who hate him all film suddenly looooove and miss him, and Batman and Wonder Woman, who barely knew him at all, suddenly want to devote their entire lives to fighting evil threats in his memory. Give me a goddamn break. To make matters worse, they kill Superman just to bring him back again, ruining any weight that move had, which again, wasn't much considering you never feel like people liked him enough to miss him in the first place, outside of Ma Kent and Lois.

    Who here actually licked all this up? I mean, come on. We're better than this folks, way better, and we deserve better heroes than this garbage excuse of a superhero film.

    And worst of all, this is our DCCU for a long, long time now, unless by some miracle these aren't box office hits and the franchise is abandoned. Warner and DC won't be stopped by bad fan reviews, because they don't care about how we feel, and because money talks and it's all that matters now.

    Worst of all, I probably won't see a proper Batman in a proper Batman movie until I'm well over 30, and that's just shameful.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Rental, definitely.

    Maybe.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @chrisisall, please see it. I encourage everyone to if they're a genuine fan. As much as I don't want to advise people to see it and give more money to Warner and DC's vision of the Justice League and their characters that I don't support, you need to see this for yourself and judge it on your own terms. I don't want to feel like the odd man out here, so upset and hurt at what this film means for the future of the DCCU. Because right now, I don't want to see this movie again, nor do I want to bother seeing any future films in this line. It's gone beyond just a bad taste in my mouth.

    Some people can stomach what they've done to Batman, Superman and all the rest, and you may be able to as well, chris. And I envy the ability people have to do this, but as much as I liked some of the content in this movie at shining moments, the feeling I got in the pit of my stomach when Batman killed people and Superman told Lois he couldn't be a good guy forever just ruined any of that for me. These are not the heroes we all love, guys.

    What do you think our five year old selves, dressed in Superman and Batman pajamas would say about this movie? Come on, now.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    @chrisisall, please see it.
    Some people can stomach what they've done to Batman, Superman and all the rest, and you may be able to as well, chris.

    No, I considered it, but I never saw MOS because I heard what they did there, and here they just double the BS.

    My 5 year old self would never have liked any of this super dark, hyper-violent stuff.
  • Posts: 1,082
    I will absolutely see it soon. I like all the Batman Movies (from 1989 onwards) so I am somewhat excited. I absolutely Think it will be better than "Man Of Steel", which was just ok but hardly great.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I think perhaps people had too high expectations of this film, and as I said earlier, that was probably on account of Batman (and how we were spoiled with this character from Nolan).

    I didn't have such high expectations and it wasn't all that terrible to me. Run of the mill & mediocre, as expected. The trailers sort of suggested this to a degree.

    For me, superhero films that have far exceeded expectations include (in no order):
    -The Nolan trilogy (yes, all 3 of them)
    -Batman Returns (the first one, despite all the hype, did not work on all levels for me)
    -Spider Man 2 (Tobey version of course)
    -Cap America - Winter Soldier
    -Iron Man
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I saw Superman Returns a few times, and I wasn't really all that fond of it.
    For me not to see MOS lets you know how much sheer weight I give to the tone in a movie.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    BvS heading for a world wide opening of over $420 million.
  • Posts: 1,082
    BvS heading for a world wide opening of over $420 million.

    Impressive! And it's good to see that my favorite MI6 member is still around :x
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    My man @007RogerMoore!
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I hope it can keep up with that numbes in the next two weeks. 1.5 billion should be possible even if word of mouth will be a mixed bag.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @chrisisall, MoS is so superior to BvS you can't even conceptualize it. In that movie they deal with interesting themes of family and duty, and Superman acts like Superman. Here, there's none of that. If you thought the tone of MoS was too much, BvS is soaked in darkness and depravity to the point that I left the theater depressed, dejected and confused. I didn't feel hope or excitement or thrills; I never wanted to see the thing again.

    I honestly have never ever been so disappointed and beyond saddened while leaving a movie theater before in my life. That's not an exaggeration, either. I've walked out of theaters from bad movies before, but this is different. I had so much invested in this, and so much trust in DC to give us what we deserved, and they went beyond failure. I'd say I'm upset, but it's just not the right word. I'd be upset if I slept in and missed a college class. I'd be upset if I made plans with a friend and forgot about it. I'd be upset if I didn't meet expectations on a paper or exam.

    The better descriptors for how I feel about this film are infuriated, appalled and inconsolable. And I'll be honest: the biggest reason why I find it so hard to like this movie is because of how Batman and Superman are portrayed. I grew up with the Batman and Superman animated series, Batman Beyond, JLA, JLA Unlimited and all the animated films in between. These characters are not them; they are so far removed from what each stand for that I honestly have a hard time calling Batman Batman and Superman Superman. It's like this movie is showing us an alternate reality universe with a Batman and Superman in it who are Bizarro images or super extreme versions of their regular counterparts, and it's scary. They aren't heroic, they aren't worthy of being supported and they aren't justified in doing anything that they do.

    And even still, IF by some miracle anything Batman and Superman did in this film made sense or was in character, this film would still be a steaming pile of garbage. Everything they set up in MoS to address, from the destruction of Metropolis to whether Superman is a force of good or evil in the world, is dropped completely by one event that I honestly can't even describe in words how appalling it was to see, and that you can spot coming a mile away. This movie cheats us out of interesting character development, interesting characterizations, interesting character interactions and so, so much more. Want to see Superman talk in a Congressional hearing to explain why he does what he does? Sorry, you're not getting that, even though it appeared in every trailer. Want to see Superman show the public just how good of a man he is? Oh, I'm sorry, maybe next time...or not.

    Lex has such a thin motivation it's laughable, they tarnish what must be one of your favorite Superman moments from the comics, @chrisisall, that continues to decimate this thing to oblivion, and storylines and plot points are openly abandoned or brushed over. All the while, Batman blows people up, snaps necks, stabs, shoot and destroys anything in his path while at the same time trying to kill Superman for causing people to die in MoS, which holds absolutely no weight. Bruce is so upset that Superman let people die, but he has no issue sending people to certain death or pulling the trigger himself. What the hell is that about, huh? What an delusional whackjob.

    Superman in MoS is perfect and never, ever means to bring about the destruction that arises when he and Zod fight. Batman should get that, but this is All Star Batman and Robin Batman more than anything, so all we get is a crazy psychopath in a batsuit. I'm scared of him, but for all the wrong reasons, and I'm scared that Snyder and his team thought that fans like me would actually be able to get behind him. There's not even a brief moment in this entire movie when Bruce explains why he's suddenly okay with killing people now. Not once, and nobody, not Alfred or Superman or Ma Kent or Lois or Lex or Perry White or anybody else calls him on it. Is this the kind of hero we want to see, guys? Because it's not one I do.

    And to think that for the past year or so I had the gall to call out Marvel for not exploring their characters properly, or presenting moral complexities. What a fool I have been, thinking Warner and DC would deliver an interesting cinematic universe to challenge Marvel and create a great time for comics fans on both sides of the front.

    I was going to catch Civil War after it hit theaters, but now I'm going to one of the ones at the head of the pack. Marvel has all of my support now, and DC none with this current universe of "heroes," if I can even call them that. What a sad, sad time to be a Batman and Superman fan, but especially the former.

    This all feels like one bad dream, but I have yet to wake up.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    @chrisisall, please see it. I encourage everyone to if they're a genuine fan. As much as I don't want to advise people to see it and give more money to Warner and DC's vision of the Justice League and their characters that I don't support, you need to see this for yourself and judge it on your own terms. I don't want to feel like the odd man out here, so upset and hurt at what this film means for the future of the DCCU. Because right now, I don't want to see this movie again, nor do I want to bother seeing any future films in this line. It's gone beyond just a bad taste in my mouth.

    Some people can stomach what they've done to Batman, Superman and all the rest, and you may be able to as well, chris. And I envy the ability people have to do this, but as much as I liked some of the content in this movie at shining moments, the feeling I got in the pit of my stomach when Batman killed people and Superman told Lois he couldn't be a good guy forever just ruined any of that for me. These are not the heroes we all love, guys.

    What do you think our five year old selves, dressed in Superman and Batman pajamas would say about this movie? Come on, now.

    With a few obvious tweaks here and there this is how I feel about the last couple of Bond films especially SP.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @chrisisall

    You should watch BvS. Look at it as a patchwork of awesome and some not so awesome sequences.

    The Knightmare sequence alone justifies the ticket price. That might just be the single most awesome thing I have ever seen in a live action comic book movie. It's like Sucker Punch with Batman, freaking bloody gigantically orgasmic.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I have to laugh a little at all this whining.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I have to laugh a little at all this whining.
    Well, when you realize that the next ten plus years of DC films are going to be made by people that don't understand who these characters are at their fundamental levels, it's pretty distressing.

    I worry about the kids who grow up with these films. People of my generation had the amazing animated shows (still the best adaptations of these characters, mind you) to learn from, because they presented true heroes who helped innocents and always did the right thing.

    Kids of today have this movie, however, and whatever comes after it. And what a downgrade it is: a murderous Batman, a Superman who labels himself as a bad guy and a mad scientist Luthor. Nobody is likable and nobody looks out for each other. The US army fly in and blow up Gotham and Metropolis, the public tear Superman apart when he's one of the least evil people in the film, and everyone solves their problems with each other by fighting, not talking. It just sends a very negative precedent for young kids watching these films who think this is how heroes are supposed to act.

    DC have been out of touch with their characters for a while now, but this is just unreal. And the sad thing is that these films will rake in the cash, Warner won't give a damn about how horrible the movies are and they'll keep pushing them out happily, with barren characters and abysmal plots full of holes and leaps of logic that will only amount to a poor man's version of what Marvel's superior team have crafted. The Marvel catalogue shows that it's amazing what you can do when you hire people who actually know their characters. Not all their films are smash hits, but at least in those subpar efforts Iron Man acts like Iron Man, Thor acts like Thor, Cap acts like Cap, and on and on. Batman v Superman can't say even that.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,959
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, so what I'm getting from your posts is that it's the greatest movie of all time and I should buy 30 tickets right now?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    There is some serious James Bond in BvS. A whole sequence that is (on purpose?) 100% Bondesque.
    It even starts with Bond arriving at Lex's place in an Aston Martin....I mean Wayne, Bruce Wayne.
    Needless to say that Diana Prince (Gal Cadot) is the best Bond girl I've seen in ages.
    I almost wish Ben Affleck was British :))
  • Artemis81Artemis81 In Christmas Land
    Posts: 543
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I understand your frustration and some of the points you mentioned in your spoiler tags I totally agree with and were some of the issues I had with the movie. However, I'm going to give the film another shot, hopefully see the film differently than what I originally intended to be.

    As for those who mentioned that if you like MoS, you'll like this one. I don't completely agree that it's true. Watching MoS this past week, I loved it because of the way the story was told, seeing the characters's struggles and the themes presented. I thought BvS had some good ideas, but they just weren't presented well. Sure, they have similar visual styles and darker tones, but MoS is much better overall.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, so what I'm getting from your posts is that it's the greatest movie of all time and I should buy 30 tickets right now?

    I loved it so much that if I saw Snyder in person I'd give his neck a big, big hug.
    There is some serious James Bond in BvS. A whole sequence that is (on purpose?) 100% Bondesque.
    It even starts with Bond arriving at Lex's place in an Aston Martin....I mean Wayne, Bruce Wayne.
    Needless to say that Diana Prince (Gal Cadot) is the best Bond girl I've seen in ages.
    I almost wish Ben Affleck was British :))

    The only way this film works is if you pretend Bruce is somebody else. Actually, it'd still be bad.
    Artemis81 wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I understand your frustration and some of the points you mentioned in your spoiler tags I totally agree with and were some of the issues I had with the movie. However, I'm going to give the film another shot, hopefully see the film differently than what I originally intended to be.

    As for those who mentioned that if you like MoS, you'll like this one. I don't completely agree that it's true. Watching MoS this past week, I loved it because of the way the story was told, seeing the characters's struggles and the themes presented. I thought BvS had some good ideas, but they just weren't presented well. Sure, they have similar visual styles and darker tones, but MoS is much better overall.

    @Artemis81, I probably won't be going back for a second viewing, to be honest. I've just had enough, really, and there's too many holes for me to enjoy it, especially with Batman being who he is here. There's nothing keeping me coming back.

    I agree about MoS, though. Loved it and hoped the great stakes it addressed would be addressed in BvS, but of course we got cheated out of all of it. Everything is set up, then literally and figuratively blown to smithereens in one scene, and never brought up again. To make matters worse, Superman is 180 degrees removed from who he is in MoS. Here, he wasn't even recognizable.

    And it's funny, this movie is called Batman v Superman, but in the plot the filmmakers present, Batman and Superman wouldn't ever have to fight at all, which is just another reason why it fails so much. All Superman had to do was
    tell Batman, "Lex has my mother Martha and he'll kill her and even more people without your help," and that would have been it.
    Oh course, because this Batman is a raging asshat, who knows how receptive he'd be to such logic.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited March 2016 Posts: 9,020
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    I really try to like this movie, I try hard. And now you come along and make this post above which makes total sense and is.....
    ahhh.....I can't say it.....t h e......t....r.....u.....t..h...aaarghhhh..... :))

    There are some really cringe-worthy things in it. Everything Eisenberg, and sadly he has a lot of screen time. Supes being depressed (more or less from start to finish).
    The creation of
    Doomsday
    I mean what??? How??? Did Goyer/Terrio even attempt to try to explain that?
    What does Lex try to achieve? What's his end-game?
    Alluring Darkseid to Earth so he can destroy it??

    Another thing that angers me in retrospect: Alfred isn't a butler, did you see him buttle anything?
    In fact he is Lucius Fox in BvS, if they named him that
    nobody would even suspect it isn't so. Another very badly done character.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    I just saw this earlier today and I went in with low expectations and walked out satisfied for the most part. Overall it felt more like prelude to the Justice League movie rather than a standalone movie. Lex Luther was the only big thing I didn't like. Batman steals the show for me. I've never been a big DC fan but I have always been a big Batman fan. Between Man of Steel and Batman V Superman, BvS was far more entertaining and is something I would mind seeing again and owning.

    Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice
    Man of Steel
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 2,015
    I have a heap of other problems with this movie that absolutely ruin it for me, of plots holes, logical fallacies and heaps of other character related complaints, but for now I wanted to talk about the biggest problem, being that these characters aren't who they are in the comics.

    Let's hope it'll make you understand more those who feel that way here with Mendes' Bond :) For some, it's no so great to see a movie that throws everything away from a given universe for the sake of a few self-conscious iconic scenes...

    Let's see what you'll make of the "it made a ton of money so they're right and you're wrong" approach with Batman vs Superman !
  • Posts: 4,044
    jake24 wrote: »
    This is certainly one of the most polarizing films I've seen. I've just seen it, and as a casual fan I really, really liked it. However, I'm sure that many of the criticisms coming from hardcore Batman fans are justified.

    Will now some understand why turning Bond/Blofed into "brothers" is a big problem for some as it is a too big change of character ? :)


    How can it be a change of character for Bond or Blofeld when this is the first time they have met onscreen?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I have a heap of other problems with this movie that absolutely ruin it for me, of plots holes, logical fallacies and heaps of other character related complaints, but for now I wanted to talk about the biggest problem, being that these characters aren't who they are in the comics.

    Let's hope it'll make you understand more those who feel that way here with Mendes' Bond :) For some, it's no so great to see a movie that throws everything away from a given universe for the sake of a few self-conscious iconic scenes...

    Let's see what you'll make of the "it made a ton of money so they're right and you're wrong" approach with Batman vs Superman !

    To even compare SP with BvS is ridiculous.

    While SP has an easy to follow plot with clear character motivation and is nicely structured, BvS is a total plot, sub-plot and sub-sub plot mess, has illogical character motivations if any, everything is all over the place.

    Compared to BvS, Spectre is a masterpiece of gigantic proportions.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Having read super hero comics since the early 70s, I must say that I have enjoyed many various takes on the classic characters. Once in a while an alternative version would come out, and I would enjoy that as well. Or not.

    It is the same thing with the movies. For me, every scene with Batman was a highlight of this new one.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Having read super hero comics since the early 70s, I must say that I have enjoyed many various takes on the classic characters. Once in a while an alternative version would come out, and I would enjoy that as well. Or not.

    It is the same thing with the movies. For me, every scene with Batman was a highlight of this new one.

    I see we agree, which is strange...
  • Posts: 9,843
    rather then multiquote a few comments to Bond Jason and Brady
    1. Why is batman ok with killing or why is he more brutual?

    to me it makes sense and if you Read A lonely place of Dying Batman in the comics was on a similar path Robin (Jason todd) was dead and Batman became more brutal in the comics so times that by 10-15 years (depending on when Joker killed robin) yeah I would imagine Batman would be right where we are in Batman V Superman he is angry he does brand and torture people he does womanize He lost Jason Todd and he never got Tim Drake OF COURSE he is going to be brutal what were you expecting Him to be Adam West's Batman and again I have to point to Keaton's Batman watch Batman Returns and play a drinking game on how many times Batman just murders some one heck even in Nolan there isn't a jury in the world that wouldn't of convicted him for killing Ra'z Al Ghul don't let fancy speeches distract you Batman murdered Ra'z in Batman Begins

    2. Alfred isn't a butler so I hate him

    Ok weird but lets talk about the character of Alfred clearly Irons version is taking influence from Batman: Earth One (volume 1 and 2) as well as Alfred in the 70's and 80's and Even Alfred from Grayson's run who while being butler also did the following things

    1. Helped Train Bruce Wayne with his acting abilities to developed the Bruce Wayne persona
    2. fixed Bruce's wounds And performed numerous procedures on him
    3. Helped Build and maintain numerous gadgets and yes the batmobile
    4. Take control of the Batmobile (this was done in comics numerous times)
    5. act as a conscious for Bruce

    and Irons Alfred did all of that was he more hands on then Caine yes is that a bad thing honestly no. I like Irons Alfred. I felt he was closest to the comic book interpretation that iam most comfortable with. Heck even in the Animated Series Alfred was seen helping bruce out in the cave numerous times.

    Again for me this all makes sense and works well with the character Again Superman and Wonder Woman in this time line more then likely will be the beacon of hope needed for Bruce and honestly I can imagine since Superman and Lane are together maybe Batman ends up with Wonder woman in Justice league..

    as a series I feel it's strong and wonderful and I am looking forward to seeing it again this weekend.

  • Posts: 6,432
    BvS is as @Thunderfinger rightly illustrates, its another variation. Sup and Bat have both been around for 75 years and have changed and evolved countless times, that's the prime reason for their longevity. I loved this film simply because I was open minded to take on board this version. In years to come there will be many other versions.

    Bottom line like any film, if you not willing to buy into something you are by default going to critise many aspects. Initially I did not like Spectre, once I watched it again and accepted this interpretation it opened the door to really enjoying the film. Each to there own obviously.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Don't get me wrong people. I rate this movie 75% at the moment. And it might go up to 80 something.
    It's just that I wanted it to be much better. The story is all over the place.
    Maybe the 30 minutes longer Ultimate Cut will do wonders to the movie. I sure hope so.
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