Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

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  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    BvS is as @Thunderfinger rightly illustrates, its another variation. Sup and Bat have both been around for 75 years and have changed and evolved countless times, that's the prime reason for their longevity. I loved this film simply because I was open minded to take on board this version. In years to come there will be many other versions.

    Couldn't agree more, i don't think BvS strayed to far from what we know about Superman and Batman. And i am pretty sure that for every action that supes and bats did in the film, somewhere theres a comic or even an entire run where they did exactly that!

    You would think that on a Bond forum people would better understand the concept of alternate takes on characters, but some here are struggling with it a lot
  • Artemis81Artemis81 In Christmas Land
    Posts: 543
    Don't get me wrong people. I rate this movie 75% at the moment. And it might go up to 80 something.
    It's just that I wanted it to be much better. The story is all over the place.
    Maybe the 30 minutes longer Ultimate Cut will do wonders to the movie. I sure hope so.
    This agree with. I had no issues with how the characters were portrayed, is just the film they were in was a mess. I do hope the extended cut would provide more focus.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    The BvS: Ultimate Cut will be released July 16th on Blu Ray.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The BvS: Ultimate Cut will be released July 16th on Blu Ray.

    That means Christmas comes in Summer this year :D
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 2,914
    For me the best version of Batman meeting Superman will always be "World Finest," from Batman: The Animated Series. Technically, it's three episodes from Superman: The Animated Series, but both shows had the same peerless creative team of Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, and Alan Burnett. Fine as some live action superhero films have been, the animated versions are the best versions of the characters in any medium, because they strike the best balance between gritty darkness and superheroic lightness.

    "World's Finest" has been released as a stand-alone DVD (don't let the ugly cover art and uncreative title put you off) and there's a good preview clip here as well. The movie avoids the mistake of making the heroes too antagonistic or too chummy, and is a hard act for anyone, let alone Snyder, to follow. Plus it has the Joker teaming up with Luthor and a catfight between Harley Quinn and Lex's bodyguard Mercy, so what's not to like?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    There was too little Mercy in the film.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2016 Posts: 28,694
    Risico007 wrote: »
    rather then multiquote a few comments to Bond Jason and Brady
    1. Why is batman ok with killing or why is he more brutual?

    to me it makes sense and if you Read A lonely place of Dying Batman in the comics was on a similar path Robin (Jason todd) was dead and Batman became more brutal in the comics so times that by 10-15 years (depending on when Joker killed robin) yeah I would imagine Batman would be right where we are in Batman V Superman he is angry he does brand and torture people he does womanize He lost Jason Todd and he never got Tim Drake OF COURSE he is going to be brutal what were you expecting Him to be Adam West's Batman and again I have to point to Keaton's Batman watch Batman Returns and play a drinking game on how many times Batman just murders some one heck even in Nolan there isn't a jury in the world that wouldn't of convicted him for killing Ra'z Al Ghul don't let fancy speeches distract you Batman murdered Ra'z in Batman Begins

    2. Alfred isn't a butler so I hate him

    Ok weird but lets talk about the character of Alfred clearly Irons version is taking influence from Batman: Earth One (volume 1 and 2) as well as Alfred in the 70's and 80's and Even Alfred from Grayson's run who while being butler also did the following things

    1. Helped Train Bruce Wayne with his acting abilities to developed the Bruce Wayne persona
    2. fixed Bruce's wounds And performed numerous procedures on him
    3. Helped Build and maintain numerous gadgets and yes the batmobile
    4. Take control of the Batmobile (this was done in comics numerous times)
    5. act as a conscious for Bruce

    and Irons Alfred did all of that was he more hands on then Caine yes is that a bad thing honestly no. I like Irons Alfred. I felt he was closest to the comic book interpretation that iam most comfortable with. Heck even in the Animated Series Alfred was seen helping bruce out in the cave numerous times.

    Again for me this all makes sense and works well with the character Again Superman and Wonder Woman in this time line more then likely will be the beacon of hope needed for Bruce and honestly I can imagine since Superman and Lane are together maybe Batman ends up with Wonder woman in Justice league..

    as a series I feel it's strong and wonderful and I am looking forward to seeing it again this weekend.


    @Risico007, there's many reasons why
    Batman killing upsets me.

    For one, it's done for no good/important reason in the film. Batman will just run people over, mow them down with bullets, and shoot them with missiles like it's second nature, without a single thought. I read lovely articles examining his character in this film and they all express a salient point: every life Batman takes, when he must cross that line, should be important and troubling and wrenching, for him and for us. In the comics, when Batman has to cross a line, it's a big moment and treated as such because he morals are so fixed; he doesn't take brutality lightly, and always thinks hard before doing something he usually doesn't do, no matter what that may be.

    In BvS, we have no context for why Batman is like this now. We see what I assume is Jason's Robin costume there, but there is no dialogue between him and any other character to explain his increased violence and brutality, and why he has become a one man death squad. It's the thing about this film that bugs me more than anything, and they don't even care enough to properly address it, which is funny, because Bruce has the audacity to call Superman a killer. This Bruce is a monstrous, hypocritical terrorist, just as bad as those he is fighting. Superman should have been fighting to put him behind bars, not Lex. The Superman from MoS, who was always in character, would have made sure Batman and Luthor shared a padded cell together. I've said it once, and I'll say it again: is this the hero we want to see in these films?

    To make matters even worse, this Batman doesn't need to kill. He is still so strong and agile, even in his older age, that he could take out his foes without shooting them, stabbing them or lighting them on fire/blowing them up, and he also doesn't need to brand men and send them to their certain deaths. This tells you that he does this just because he can. Because, why not? He never has a good reason for it, never gets challenged on it by the public or his allies (again, how in the hell is that?) and never debates the impossibly difficult decision of taking a life. This Batman seems to forget that night in Crime Alley when his parents got gunned down. He fails to realize that it's never a solution to kill people; we have the criminal justice system to decide their fate legally and within the system. He fails to see how hypocritical it is to gun people down without a second thought, just like Chill did to his mother and father. He seems to have forgotten his mission to help criminals and attempt to rehabilitate them, despite the horrors of their acts. Thomas and Martha would look at this man and hang their heads in shame, just as I am.

    Snyder, the dolt that he is, has given tons of interviews where he scrambles like a pseudo-intellectual to explain why he made this Batman the way he did, citing each time The Dark Knight Returns. What did he miss? Oh, just the very important fact that this Batman is nothing like The Dark Knight Returns Batman. Again, in that comic when Batman gets more brutal and beats the snot out of people, we know what has driven him to it. It's called storytelling, folks, something that was missing in this film. Every time Batman crosses a line in this comic and every other one, he debates it and debates it, because it's important to him and he knows that taking a life should always been the last, last resort, and something that blackens the soul. In the comic he despises guns and killing, and can't even bring himself to kill Joker, despite what he'd done, past and present. He doesn't mow people down. He doesn't explode people into oblivion, and he doesn't stab guys or snap their necks. Because that's not Batman.

    I'd suggest to Snyder to reread The Dark Knight Returns, because it seems like he forgot to before making this film and simply went along with what his writers had cooked up to poison us all. This Batman isn't like the Batman from any of the comics, except for maybe Kane's rotten beginning run, where again, Batman kills people sadistically just 'cause, completely discounting his entire origins and role as a so-called hero. Thankfully, over time writers like Denny O'Neil, Frank Miller (most of the time) and Jeph Loeb have reinvigorated Batman and made his actions weighed with importance, depth and significance, where what he does makes sense for where he's been and he doesn't kill or use weapons because it's the antithesis of what he stands for. It's a shame people like those comics writers weren't on the writing team; maybe then we'd get a better story that doesn't seem like it was written by a preschooler, with characters who resemble who they are in the comics and that have solid motivation. Is that really too much to ask for? These days, maybe.


    At this point, any faith I still had in DC and Warner is gone. It seems they just don't know their own characters anymore, largely because all the best writers of olden days are dead and gone. Just to show you how stupid they are, Geoff Johns is engineering to reveal the identity of the Joker in coming issues of one of their lines, a character who works so well because we don't know who he is or where he comes from. Why ruin that mystery and make him just another guy? Because, money, I guess. Johns and his team have made the reveal seem like the best thing since sliced butter, hyping up the identity of Joker, which instantly tells me it'll be an absolute disaster and completely disappointing, if not entirely predictable. And guess who was heavily involved in BvS and the future DCCU films? That's right, Geoff Johns. This reveal, like most DC reveals lately, will likely be openly mocked and hated by fans. Because we recognize bullshit when we see it and don't support it when we can't believe what has been done to our favorite characters. Which is why I stand in opposition to this film and its extremist versions of these "heroes," who are so different you'd think The Punisher crossed over into the DC universe to be the new Batman.

    I don't mean to exaggerate here, but this film is the worst movie containing Batman since Batman & Robin. And what's more sad, I like Schumacher's Batman better, as difficult as that is to admit.

    I think I'm going to be done talking about this film soon. It's upset me more than it has any right to, but that's because I care more about there characters than I do a lot of real people. They've impacted my life and given meaning to a lot of things in it, and I've devoted some of the best hours of my life watching DC films and reading their comics. I see this figures for what they are: important to generations of kids who increasingly need heroes to affect their lives and become connected to. And when I see the characters I love so horribly portrayed, like they are here, empty of any depth or logic for why they do what they do, I have to stand up and shout about it. Our five year old selves would look at Superman and Batman in this movie, folks, and confuse them with the villains, and that's just not right.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    @0Brady0M0Bondfanatic, what did tou think of The Dark Knight Strikes Again., particularly the ending where
    he kills Dick Grayson?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @0Brady0M0Bondfanatic, what did tou think of The Dark Knight Strikes Again., particularly the ending where
    he kills Dick Grayson?
    I treat TDKSA as if it never existed. It was the beginning of the end for Frank's genius, that at the end of the 90s disappeared unexplainably, giving us Holy Terror, All Star Batman and Robin and heaps of other garbage that was so far removed from his earlier groundbreaking work you'd never think they were written by the same man. He's one of the greatest tragedies of talent in modern comics.

    I'd be curious to hear his thoughts on BvS, though. Would his memories of writing TDKR make him despise the portrayal, or have his remaining neurons been soiled by his work on All-Star, leading him to love how malicious Batman acts? You can never predict anything with Frank, that much is certain.
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 4,813
    Yeah DKSA isn't the best incarnation of Bats out there, lol.
    in the very scene you refer to @Thunderfinger, Batman says the following: "You were useless... couldn't cut the mustard!" "Awwww nuts. He caught the head." "That's why I fired your worthless butt!" and "Let's die."
    And that's just the good ones I remember off the top of my head! Try reading those lines in Keaton's voice... or Bale's! =))

    *Edit- Better yet, here... have a little taste!
    The-Dark-Knight-Strikes-Agian-1.jpg
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Forbes Article.

    "Batman v Superman' Sets Record With Worst Friday-Sunday Drop For A Superhero Pic"

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/.../#5ec4d70a6d72

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited March 2016 Posts: 40,959
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Forbes Article.

    "Batman v Superman' Sets Record With Worst Friday-Sunday Drop For A Superhero Pic"

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/.../#5ec4d70a6d72

    I told my overly-biased buddy about this, and he said it's because of Spring Break and people traveling on Satuday to go to Easter celebrations and blah blah blah.

    Also, couldn't read the article (so it may have stated this) because Forbes won't let me view their site while I have an Adblocker on.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2016 Posts: 28,694
    I'd love to see this film plummet financially, but I know it won't happen. It's the only way Warner and DC will know that this is not the quality they should be aspiring to.

    @Master_Dahark, have you seen BvS yet? I'm more curious about your thoughts than anyone else's. I know you like Keaton's Batman, so you don't mind a Bruce that goes super brutal, but here that's taken to entirely scary new levels. I can still watch the Burton films okay even with the killing Batman does, but with this film my stomach was in knots the entire time. My inner five year old was crying in a corner.
  • Posts: 4,813
    Tomorrow I'll be seeing it right after work and will present my full report!
    I'm curious as to just how much killing Batman does: is it the level of Burton's movies or is Batman a freaking serial killer now? ;)

    Tomorrows work day will be soooo long....
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Batman's like the Punisher.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Sorry but why does anybody claim Keaton's Batman was super-brutal??

    Compared to Batfleck Keaton was a harmless mousy.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Tomorrow I'll be seeing it right after work and will present my full report!
    I'm curious as to just how much killing Batman does: is it the level of Burton's movies or is Batman a freaking serial killer now? ;)

    Tomorrows work day will be soooo long....

    I think your opinion will heavily influence how I will finally rate this movie.
    I'm so torn about it, I can't recall ever been such an emotional mess over any movie.
    I can't see straight, one minute I think: Yes, it was bloody brilliant, I love it. The other minute I'm like: Noooo, what have they done? Why, I'm destroyed.

    I'm sure you will bring clarity to it all. Not that I want to put any pressure on you...still...
    :P
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Sorry but why does anybody claim Keaton's Batman was super-brutal??

    Compared to Batfleck Keaton was a harmless mousy.

    Because like Affleck's Batman, he kills when he doesn't need to, and in the most brutal ways imaginable. Lighting a guy on fire with the thrusters of the Batmobile? Check. Strapping a bomb to a guy and kicking him down a man hole? Check. Kicking a guy off the top of a belltower landing? Check. At times Keaton's Batman would smile really creepily as well while doing all this. At least when Affleck's Batman is going on a killing spree he doesn't look like he's enjoying himself so much.

    I want to love the Keaton movies like I wanted to love BvS, but this stuff just doesn't sit well with me and I don't stand for it.
  • Posts: 9,843
    shrugs So Brady how do you feel when Bale's Batman killed people?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Sorry but why does anybody claim Keaton's Batman was super-brutal??

    Compared to Batfleck Keaton was a harmless mousy.

    Because like Affleck's Batman, he kills when he doesn't need to, and in the most brutal ways imaginable. Lighting a guy on fire with the thrusters of the Batmobile? Check. Strapping a bomb to a guy and kicking him down a man hole? Check. Kicking a guy off the top of a belltower landing? Check. At times Keaton's Batman would smile really creepily as well while doing all this. At least when Affleck's Batman is going on a killing spree he doesn't look like he's enjoying himself so much.

    I want to love the Keaton movies like I wanted to love BvS, but this stuff just doesn't sit well with me and I don't stand for it.

    I see what you mean.
    Burton's style was more cartoonish and the "brutality" didn't feel that brutal imo, it was even funny in a way. But I will look at those scenes more carefully when I'm re-watching the Batman movies shortly.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    I went to see the film today and I loved it. To me, it's a very good Man Of Steel film guest starring Batman. I really liked Affleck in the part and was pleasantly surprised by Wonder Woman.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    To me, it's a very good Man Of Steel film guest starring Batman.
    That's how I look at it as well @DarthDimi. Then it works for me.

    Having Batman and Superman in the same universe on film (as opposed to in the comics) was always going to be tricky, and I think they did a half decent job of it, leaning towards the Supes side of things, given this is still primarily his film.

    They have plenty of opportunity to fine tune Batman for his stand alone universe film. e.g scale it down and make it more thriller focused rather than action spectacle.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2016 Posts: 28,694
    Risico007 wrote: »
    shrugs So Brady how do you feel when Bale's Batman killed people?

    The only instance where that could be close to being argued is in Batman Begins where Bruce refuses to execute the man after his training and he sets off an explosion that gradually burns the hideout of the League of Shadows down. Bruce sets up the explosion but ensures that people would have time to flee the place if they wish, most importantly the man who was going to be executed, who does get out. However, the ninjas choose to stay behind regardless, and they are ordered to stay put by the man who is "playing" Ra's, who essentially signs their death warrants. The blame for their deaths falls far more heavily on his shoulders than Bruce's.

    I love the scene because Bruce really thinks on what he is doing here, and he makes the first big decision that cements his destiny to protect the innocent from forces of ill intent. As I've said, when Bruce does anything remotely brutal, he thinks on it like mad, because it's important to him to keep to his principles.

    In BvS, we find a man with no such principles, and worse yet, it's never explained why he's like that or why he finds his solutions to be the right ones.

    If Affleck's Batman and Bale's Batman crossed universes, the latter would be fighting against the former just as he did Scarecrow, Joker and Bane. He's a danger to the public and a danger to himself.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    What about batman letting Ras die in the train?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited March 2016 Posts: 40,959
    Don't forget about Harvey Dent.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    Batman's more or less 'accepted' ethics is that he won't kill BUT he won't have to save you if you're truly evil and gotten yourself into trouble.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    Risico007 wrote: »
    shrugs So Brady how do you feel when Bale's Batman killed people?

    The only instance where that could be close to being argued is in Batman Begins where Bruce refuses to execute the man after his training and he sets off an explosion that gradually burns the hideout of the League of Shadows down.

    That is not true, he absolutely consiously kills the driver of the truck in the dark knight rises at the end (as well as thalia technicaly)
    There isn't a cinematic batman who hasn't killed, except for adam west.
    And i honestly think it would be completely unrealistic. This guy fights single handedly against armys of guys. If they would know that they can kill him but he can't kill them, they would behave absolutely reckless when they see him. Batfleck evens the odds, by making clear he will do whats necessary. "don't f*** with me and i might let you live"
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Nolan made a point out of it, including 'no guns' etc. The overriding themes were there, even if there were exceptions, and they resonated.

    Again, with BvS, it's really an Avengers style spectacle. They can fine tune Bat's perspective in his standalone film if they choose (and I'm curious to see what direction they will take with that).
  • Posts: 2,914
    Burton's style was more cartoonish and the "brutality" didn't feel that brutal imo, it was even funny in a way.

    Yes, it's not so much "cartoonish" as it's black comedy, with a level of irony: the guy Batman roasts with the batmobile's exhaust was a fire-eater who tried to incinerate Batman, while the guy with the bomb on his chest was the circus fat man who dared Batman to punch him. In Burton's grotesque universe, such elements aren't out of place, and they aren't overused to the point of weakening the violence that's meant to be taken seriously.


  • Posts: 7,653
    Saw BvsS last night, it was indeed a super boyscout movie with a surprisingly impressive Batfleck and a stunning Superman. A nice spectacle of a movie, will buy it in BD to watch again.
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