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Couldn't agree more, i don't think BvS strayed to far from what we know about Superman and Batman. And i am pretty sure that for every action that supes and bats did in the film, somewhere theres a comic or even an entire run where they did exactly that!
You would think that on a Bond forum people would better understand the concept of alternate takes on characters, but some here are struggling with it a lot
That means Christmas comes in Summer this year :D
"World's Finest" has been released as a stand-alone DVD (don't let the ugly cover art and uncreative title put you off) and there's a good preview clip here as well. The movie avoids the mistake of making the heroes too antagonistic or too chummy, and is a hard act for anyone, let alone Snyder, to follow. Plus it has the Joker teaming up with Luthor and a catfight between Harley Quinn and Lex's bodyguard Mercy, so what's not to like?
@Risico007, there's many reasons why
For one, it's done for no good/important reason in the film. Batman will just run people over, mow them down with bullets, and shoot them with missiles like it's second nature, without a single thought. I read lovely articles examining his character in this film and they all express a salient point: every life Batman takes, when he must cross that line, should be important and troubling and wrenching, for him and for us. In the comics, when Batman has to cross a line, it's a big moment and treated as such because he morals are so fixed; he doesn't take brutality lightly, and always thinks hard before doing something he usually doesn't do, no matter what that may be.
In BvS, we have no context for why Batman is like this now. We see what I assume is Jason's Robin costume there, but there is no dialogue between him and any other character to explain his increased violence and brutality, and why he has become a one man death squad. It's the thing about this film that bugs me more than anything, and they don't even care enough to properly address it, which is funny, because Bruce has the audacity to call Superman a killer. This Bruce is a monstrous, hypocritical terrorist, just as bad as those he is fighting. Superman should have been fighting to put him behind bars, not Lex. The Superman from MoS, who was always in character, would have made sure Batman and Luthor shared a padded cell together. I've said it once, and I'll say it again: is this the hero we want to see in these films?
To make matters even worse, this Batman doesn't need to kill. He is still so strong and agile, even in his older age, that he could take out his foes without shooting them, stabbing them or lighting them on fire/blowing them up, and he also doesn't need to brand men and send them to their certain deaths. This tells you that he does this just because he can. Because, why not? He never has a good reason for it, never gets challenged on it by the public or his allies (again, how in the hell is that?) and never debates the impossibly difficult decision of taking a life. This Batman seems to forget that night in Crime Alley when his parents got gunned down. He fails to realize that it's never a solution to kill people; we have the criminal justice system to decide their fate legally and within the system. He fails to see how hypocritical it is to gun people down without a second thought, just like Chill did to his mother and father. He seems to have forgotten his mission to help criminals and attempt to rehabilitate them, despite the horrors of their acts. Thomas and Martha would look at this man and hang their heads in shame, just as I am.
Snyder, the dolt that he is, has given tons of interviews where he scrambles like a pseudo-intellectual to explain why he made this Batman the way he did, citing each time The Dark Knight Returns. What did he miss? Oh, just the very important fact that this Batman is nothing like The Dark Knight Returns Batman. Again, in that comic when Batman gets more brutal and beats the snot out of people, we know what has driven him to it. It's called storytelling, folks, something that was missing in this film. Every time Batman crosses a line in this comic and every other one, he debates it and debates it, because it's important to him and he knows that taking a life should always been the last, last resort, and something that blackens the soul. In the comic he despises guns and killing, and can't even bring himself to kill Joker, despite what he'd done, past and present. He doesn't mow people down. He doesn't explode people into oblivion, and he doesn't stab guys or snap their necks. Because that's not Batman.
I'd suggest to Snyder to reread The Dark Knight Returns, because it seems like he forgot to before making this film and simply went along with what his writers had cooked up to poison us all. This Batman isn't like the Batman from any of the comics, except for maybe Kane's rotten beginning run, where again, Batman kills people sadistically just 'cause, completely discounting his entire origins and role as a so-called hero. Thankfully, over time writers like Denny O'Neil, Frank Miller (most of the time) and Jeph Loeb have reinvigorated Batman and made his actions weighed with importance, depth and significance, where what he does makes sense for where he's been and he doesn't kill or use weapons because it's the antithesis of what he stands for. It's a shame people like those comics writers weren't on the writing team; maybe then we'd get a better story that doesn't seem like it was written by a preschooler, with characters who resemble who they are in the comics and that have solid motivation. Is that really too much to ask for? These days, maybe.
At this point, any faith I still had in DC and Warner is gone. It seems they just don't know their own characters anymore, largely because all the best writers of olden days are dead and gone. Just to show you how stupid they are, Geoff Johns is engineering to reveal the identity of the Joker in coming issues of one of their lines, a character who works so well because we don't know who he is or where he comes from. Why ruin that mystery and make him just another guy? Because, money, I guess. Johns and his team have made the reveal seem like the best thing since sliced butter, hyping up the identity of Joker, which instantly tells me it'll be an absolute disaster and completely disappointing, if not entirely predictable. And guess who was heavily involved in BvS and the future DCCU films? That's right, Geoff Johns. This reveal, like most DC reveals lately, will likely be openly mocked and hated by fans. Because we recognize bullshit when we see it and don't support it when we can't believe what has been done to our favorite characters. Which is why I stand in opposition to this film and its extremist versions of these "heroes," who are so different you'd think The Punisher crossed over into the DC universe to be the new Batman.
I don't mean to exaggerate here, but this film is the worst movie containing Batman since Batman & Robin. And what's more sad, I like Schumacher's Batman better, as difficult as that is to admit.
I think I'm going to be done talking about this film soon. It's upset me more than it has any right to, but that's because I care more about there characters than I do a lot of real people. They've impacted my life and given meaning to a lot of things in it, and I've devoted some of the best hours of my life watching DC films and reading their comics. I see this figures for what they are: important to generations of kids who increasingly need heroes to affect their lives and become connected to. And when I see the characters I love so horribly portrayed, like they are here, empty of any depth or logic for why they do what they do, I have to stand up and shout about it. Our five year old selves would look at Superman and Batman in this movie, folks, and confuse them with the villains, and that's just not right.
I'd be curious to hear his thoughts on BvS, though. Would his memories of writing TDKR make him despise the portrayal, or have his remaining neurons been soiled by his work on All-Star, leading him to love how malicious Batman acts? You can never predict anything with Frank, that much is certain.
in the very scene you refer to @Thunderfinger, Batman says the following: "You were useless... couldn't cut the mustard!" "Awwww nuts. He caught the head." "That's why I fired your worthless butt!" and "Let's die."
And that's just the good ones I remember off the top of my head! Try reading those lines in Keaton's voice... or Bale's! =))
*Edit- Better yet, here... have a little taste!
"Batman v Superman' Sets Record With Worst Friday-Sunday Drop For A Superhero Pic"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/.../#5ec4d70a6d72
I told my overly-biased buddy about this, and he said it's because of Spring Break and people traveling on Satuday to go to Easter celebrations and blah blah blah.
Also, couldn't read the article (so it may have stated this) because Forbes won't let me view their site while I have an Adblocker on.
@Master_Dahark, have you seen BvS yet? I'm more curious about your thoughts than anyone else's. I know you like Keaton's Batman, so you don't mind a Bruce that goes super brutal, but here that's taken to entirely scary new levels. I can still watch the Burton films okay even with the killing Batman does, but with this film my stomach was in knots the entire time. My inner five year old was crying in a corner.
I'm curious as to just how much killing Batman does: is it the level of Burton's movies or is Batman a freaking serial killer now? ;)
Tomorrows work day will be soooo long....
Compared to Batfleck Keaton was a harmless mousy.
I think your opinion will heavily influence how I will finally rate this movie.
I'm so torn about it, I can't recall ever been such an emotional mess over any movie.
I can't see straight, one minute I think: Yes, it was bloody brilliant, I love it. The other minute I'm like: Noooo, what have they done? Why, I'm destroyed.
I'm sure you will bring clarity to it all. Not that I want to put any pressure on you...still...
:P
Because like Affleck's Batman, he kills when he doesn't need to, and in the most brutal ways imaginable. Lighting a guy on fire with the thrusters of the Batmobile? Check. Strapping a bomb to a guy and kicking him down a man hole? Check. Kicking a guy off the top of a belltower landing? Check. At times Keaton's Batman would smile really creepily as well while doing all this. At least when Affleck's Batman is going on a killing spree he doesn't look like he's enjoying himself so much.
I want to love the Keaton movies like I wanted to love BvS, but this stuff just doesn't sit well with me and I don't stand for it.
I see what you mean.
Burton's style was more cartoonish and the "brutality" didn't feel that brutal imo, it was even funny in a way. But I will look at those scenes more carefully when I'm re-watching the Batman movies shortly.
Having Batman and Superman in the same universe on film (as opposed to in the comics) was always going to be tricky, and I think they did a half decent job of it, leaning towards the Supes side of things, given this is still primarily his film.
They have plenty of opportunity to fine tune Batman for his stand alone universe film. e.g scale it down and make it more thriller focused rather than action spectacle.
The only instance where that could be close to being argued is in Batman Begins where Bruce refuses to execute the man after his training and he sets off an explosion that gradually burns the hideout of the League of Shadows down. Bruce sets up the explosion but ensures that people would have time to flee the place if they wish, most importantly the man who was going to be executed, who does get out. However, the ninjas choose to stay behind regardless, and they are ordered to stay put by the man who is "playing" Ra's, who essentially signs their death warrants. The blame for their deaths falls far more heavily on his shoulders than Bruce's.
I love the scene because Bruce really thinks on what he is doing here, and he makes the first big decision that cements his destiny to protect the innocent from forces of ill intent. As I've said, when Bruce does anything remotely brutal, he thinks on it like mad, because it's important to him to keep to his principles.
In BvS, we find a man with no such principles, and worse yet, it's never explained why he's like that or why he finds his solutions to be the right ones.
If Affleck's Batman and Bale's Batman crossed universes, the latter would be fighting against the former just as he did Scarecrow, Joker and Bane. He's a danger to the public and a danger to himself.
That is not true, he absolutely consiously kills the driver of the truck in the dark knight rises at the end (as well as thalia technicaly)
There isn't a cinematic batman who hasn't killed, except for adam west.
And i honestly think it would be completely unrealistic. This guy fights single handedly against armys of guys. If they would know that they can kill him but he can't kill them, they would behave absolutely reckless when they see him. Batfleck evens the odds, by making clear he will do whats necessary. "don't f*** with me and i might let you live"
Again, with BvS, it's really an Avengers style spectacle. They can fine tune Bat's perspective in his standalone film if they choose (and I'm curious to see what direction they will take with that).
Yes, it's not so much "cartoonish" as it's black comedy, with a level of irony: the guy Batman roasts with the batmobile's exhaust was a fire-eater who tried to incinerate Batman, while the guy with the bomb on his chest was the circus fat man who dared Batman to punch him. In Burton's grotesque universe, such elements aren't out of place, and they aren't overused to the point of weakening the violence that's meant to be taken seriously.