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Comments
What would Rachel say?
I should've left this film feeling what I've always felt about these characters: love, hope and respect. I didn't exit feeling hopeful or connected to these "heroes" at all, however. I felt dejected, appalled, melancholic and lost beyond imagination. That tells me quite clearly that something big went wrong here, and I've outlined just what those big issues are more times than I care to express in the past few days.
For me, this is the Bond equivalent of how I feel about some of the Moore era. Which basically amounts to me shouting at the screen, "no, that's not Bond. No, why is he doing that! No!!!" Or something like that.
And yet, I can enjoy and appreciate the Moore films, whereas I want this film wiped from my memory.
Also, I understand that comic books re-imagine their heroes time and time again, so how can you base your expectation for films on a restricted number of interpretations?
Actually the similarities between Skyfall and BvS are staggering.
From the clownesque annoying parody of a villain to the dreary depressive undertone it's all there.
Plot holes galore in both movies and totally against character in many cases.
And there is a lot more actually.
You can look at it that way of course :P
doesn't make them better though.
Great comment! For what it's worth, and given how strongly you feel about Batman v Superman, you should sent it as an email to DC Comics or Warner Bros. If people complain about the dark tone of the film the studio may reconsider their direction for future films.
Arguably the most iconic Batman story of them all is The Dark Knight Returns. That is dark, depressing!
https://medium.com/@artemine/in-defense-of-batfleck-and-why-his-characterization-is-one-of-the-best-to-date-8b60b32e8f9b#.owidqwml5
I don't have an issue with the tone or darkness of BvS; I actually prefer it. What I can't stand is how the characters are portrayed, because they are unrecognizable many times throughout the film to the so called comic book characters Snyder attests that they're based on.
Even TDKR, with its tone and often crippling melancholia, offers its own sense of hope. Of man overcoming impossible odds (or gods!), and of old heroes finding their way out of the darkness and back on the paths they were destined for, even in old age. It reminds me of the final lines of Tennyson's Ulysses, with Bruce acting in place of Odysseus. He's aged, worn and tested by time, but willing to continue on despite those challenges to do what he deems worthy.
There's a certain ring of hope seeing Bruce at the end of TDKR, rebuilding with the Sons of Batman in the old cave. As if just knowing Batman is still out there, somewhere in the world, is enough.
Thanks for that find and posting it in both places.
The Batfleck stuff is working great in BvS and I too do hope Affleck will continue this path in his solo Batfleck movie :)
How he's in Suicide Squad and doesn't kill Joker outright is going to be one of the most implausible parts of that film too.
Yes, it has very good scores amongst teenagers, while adults don't like it. Interesting.
I don't know about that. There's something about Batman and the Joker... something complementary in a way. According to some comic book lines, they instinctively feel that they need each other so while they seem to be doing their best to catch each other off guard, they also don't want to hand out that fatal blow...
I'm still contemplating the events of TDKReturns for example.
In Kevin Smith's Batman comics, the same dynamic is played out, where Joker and Batman have this conversation in which Batman tells Joker
Or maybe I'm reading too much into it now. :)
:x
Batman doesn't need Joker; no hero needs their villain. Every hero I know would love it if they didn't have to do what they do each night, heading out to fight a crime wave that always strikes back destructively in their direction. They want nothing more than for things to quiet so that the place and people they are trying to protect stay safe.
Joker in the best adaptations, though, does need Batman, or in general, likes having him around. He likes to feel that important, and is known to try and show Batman that he gets him more than anyone else could ever hope to. He loves playing mind games, getting inside Batman's head and toying with him, or presenting him with certain philosophies that he tries to use to discount Batman's supreme code.
In The Dark Knight, for example, he wants nothing more than to do what he and Batman are doing forever. He spends the entire film facing run of the mill gangbangers, but Batman presents an excitement to him from that banality, and he's also someone who he clashes with so perfectly, an equivalent order to his rampant chaos, that the fun of planning against him could never get old.
In The Dark Knight Returns, Joker kills himself just to give Batman one last middle finger and to do an act that he thinks will frame and implicate Batman in his death and send the police after him once and for all. Again, a perfect example of Joker caring so much about Batman that he is willing to go to his death just to prove his point against him.
Batman, when around, is the most important thing in Joker's universe, and the most exciting drug he knows, because he thrills and challenges him in ways no other person can, especially for his strict code. Batman on the other hand, wants nothing more than for Joker to die, but knows that the second he kills him he tarnishes the promise he made on his parent's graves and the trust he put in Gordon to play things on the edge of that moral line, never going over it.
There's no other way to interpret Batman's feelings about Joker that makes any sense. And again, if Batman is so willing to kill a room full of thugs who pose no immediate threat to him as he does in BvS, what are his chances logically for sparing a man like Joker who has killed untold numbers of people he and his allies love more than life itself, in addition to other casualties against people he's never even met? Joker is the man responsible, apparently, for why he is the monster he is in this film and so broken, so again, why would he spare him the next time they meet? Every second this Batman and Joker are in the same room with each other in the future, the more this "hero" loses all credibility and sense, if there's any left to him post BvS.
Snyder and his team shot the feet of all future writers big time on this one.
Chill & watch a heroic Batfilm to regenerate, my friend! B-)
It's just a shame where these next ten years may be headed, with a Batman who deserves to be locked up in Arkham with all the villains he used to fight and somehow hasn't killed yet. Batman the animated series sparked a golden age for this character post Miller's landmark 80s run with the character, which led to what is for me an unmatched interpretation of the character who we see develop in Batman: The Animated Series, Superman, Batman Beyond, Justice League, Justice League Unlimited and a myriad of other shows and animated features therein. I was the lucky bastard who grew up on this Batman, one that still resonates with me as the 100% best take on this character we've ever had the privilege to see. A second golden age came around 2005. Nolan's films gave us a proper onscreen Batman who dealt with important and complex issues of morality, and in 2009, the Batman Arkham games also began, concluding this year with Batman: Arkham Knight. These games offered me a chance to finally play Batman, to swoop in and neutralize goons from gargoyles above and fight like the bat in the best combat system in memory as I protected the people of Gotham in ways that felt both important and poignant.
And now, after those magical two eras of Batman stories, films and games, we've got this Batman, who we'll see in untold numbers of sequels that I can't ever get behind, no matter how much people try to scramble to explain why it's okay for him to do what he does in this film. Another big change is that I've always hated Batman adaptations from afar. I never experienced the releases of Burtons' films, because I wasn't alive at the time to see them and soak them in, but I know that if I was, I wouldn't have liked them knowing what I do now about the character. The same is true for Schumacher's films, which became a sad joke and insult as I grew old enough to see them for what they were. The true pain of BvS and this new DCCU is that, for the first time in my entire Batman-loving life, I am experiencing firsthand and in the moment a version of the character I can't stand and one I now have to live with, and honestly, it's the worst feeling imaginable.
@chrisisall, I've been watching Daredevil to calm down, a brilliant show that only serves to make this film look even shoddier in comparison, and I'll be heading back to watch some of my favorite Batman shows to reconnect with him in adaptations where he acts like a true hero, without weapons or killing. The Batman just got released on Netflix, which has me really excited to dip back into it. I know it's not super well loved, but I've always had a respect and appreciation for it. Hopefully they'll all help this funk to pass.
All I want to do is call up Kevin Conroy and record him saying with that perfect voice, "everything will be all right, Brady, this pain will pass," so that I can keep playing it over and over each day from this point onward.
Here is a message from Batman himself:
https://facebook.com/BTAS/videos/985542071482856/
If you close your eyes, you can hear Bruce in the beginning, with Batman in the end!
@WillardWhyte, yes, Kevin beautifully outlines what makes Batman so special, and why he's so important to generations of people, both young and old.
Some have argued that this Batman has just as many things to teach kids, if not more than other versions, but I find that contention more than a little asinine. The version of Batman that reigns supreme in our hearts and minds on the pages of the best comics and in the animated series is a man who shows us we can solve our problems with quick thinking, deliberation and cleverness, and that every decision we make should be treated with the utmost importance, especially if the result effects a number of people beyond ourselves. He teaches us to stand by our principles, no matter the challenges in our way, and to always stay true to who and what we believe in.
What does Affleck's Batman have to teach us? That we can shoot our problems away and shut off our brains in favor of deploying military grade weaponry? That we should give in to the negatives of the world and allow ourselves to become lost amidst the violence and decay, instead of remaining a sign of hope and stability for those around us? He is such an impressing character for youths that I shutter to think how some kids will react when they see Batman with a gun, going on patrol like a one-man death squad, plowing his way through men like he's the plague. It sends the wrong message and it's character infringement at best. The only thing he has to teach us is that this isn't how Batman should ever be portrayed.
As I've said before, I could stomach this massive creative liberty more if the film actually took the time to explore how and why Bruce kills now, but all we get are shots of him looking upset at Jason's suit with a flash of a news report talking for two seconds about the branding he's now taking up. There's no dialogue with Alfred where he makes his stance clear, and nobody, not his allies or the public question him or challenge him on it. Instead, we are left to be surprised the first time he kills someone, because Snyder took zero time out of the massive runtime of this film to actually show that this Batman was now unopposed to killing. Why it seemed to be so unimportant to him, I haven't the faintest idea, but it hardly helps what is an already troubled mess of a film get any sort of leg up.
If they'd played with the idea of Bruce being worn down by the world and how it'd driven him to stop pulling his punches, I wouldn't be so damn critical of this move. I'd still despise his character, but at least I couldn't say that the film hadn't set a precedent for this change in his character with concrete scenes that shined a spotlight on it. Instead, we get none of that, just another character hanging in the wind, their motivations wholly unexplored.
I'm half asleep as I write this, so I hope the following makes sense. Was it Hemingway who said, 'write drunk/ proofread sober'? That sort of applies here, as I drank a hand full of Redbulls before the movie and now I'm crashing. I worked the super early shift and I'll be damned if I was going to doze off during the movie!! I hope I don't check what I wrote tomorrow and be like
So here goes- initial thoughts immediately after my first viewing.
0Brady, I absolutely respect your opinion, but are you sure you saw the same movie I did? Your posts in particular prepared me for the absolute worst, yet I was *this* close to walking right back into that theatre and watching it again!
If it means anything, I owe a debt to this forum: having heard many of the topics of debate beforehand (excluding spoiler tags- my will was strong for once) I knew to pay close attention to certain things. Regarding the whole
Superman also wasn't nearly as bad as he was made out to be, by all the forum chatter. Even before the big Batman vs Superman fight, it was obvious that Supes tried to reason with Bruce first. Was Batman a dick for not hearing him out? Perhaps, but you must understand, they don't know each other-- they aren't 'superfriends' yet, lol. Superman is 'the bad guy' as far as Bats is concerned. Imagine if Bane or Riddler, etc tried to talk Batman out of fighting. He wouldn't listen to them either!
Lastly, I found no problem with the pace and the muddled plots in the beginning (though, again thanks to this forum, I heard it was a mess beforehand so I was paying extra close attention). The pace was so good in fact that when they first showed Batman in his armor my jaw dropped like "holy crap, we're at this point already??"
Well I'm off to bed now.
I only hope my thoughts on the movie don't go the route of BondJasonBond006.... loving it one night and slowly hating it the more I reflect on it! ;)
As it stands currently in my mind, however, while obviously not a perfect movie, I'd give Batman V Superman a 7 out of 10, and I anxiously await the directors cut!
But the Supes stuff, and sadly that's the bigger part of the movie is just downright bad if not catastrophically wrong.
I'm realising this even more now that I have re-watched several DC Animated stuff and Superman Returns.
I can only hope that this Supes will have a small part in JL. If he continues to be that whining depressing wuss there, it will be no good.
My rating for this movie at the moment is circa 7.2/10 which for a movie that features Batman is very, very, very low.
That's why the movie still has such a high audience rating on Imdb and RT 7.4/7.3
because a vast majority of the votes contain of pure 10s given by under 18 aged teenagers.
They don't know anything about those Superheroes except their name and look, maybe they have seen TDK or TDKR maybe not even that. Snyder/Goyer/Terrio can dish them up whatever they want, they'll say yay as soon things explode or goons get killed.
Not saying here all are the same! Just speaking of the mainstream target group of 18 or younger.
I can decide to look at BvS the way you describe b) of course. Then it's ok, a mindless action celebration that doesn't make much sense but is good to watch if you want to turn off your brain.
I like such movies too. Some of them are my favourites.
But this is Batman. I care.
I care about Star Trek.
I care about Bond.
If they fail them, I'm not pleased.
Now sure, this movie could be fun if you turned off your brain, but is that really a point in its favor? I mean, you could say that about any film under the sun, and only serves to suggest that it is a massive atrocity. "This movie is great, if, you know, you don't really think about it." I agree with why that argument just doesn't hold up with us here.
Further, is it really a compliment when the only way this film can really be any good is when you don't view it as what it is inherently, an adaption of characters these writers and filmmakers have told us they know backwards and forwards? They pretty spectacularly failed their mission statement here.
But again, even if this film had a Batman and Superman that acted like they would in the comics, it would still be such a disappointment. All the interesting content of the first half is dropped in favor of what feels like an entirely different movie leading into part 2, where things continue to gradually sink. The characters have weak or nonexistent motivations, all the promises of depth and thematic content we were promised by Snyder and shown in the trailers was a cheat, like the Congressional hearing, and the big fight, the big Batman V Superman brawl, was over so fast you wouldn't even be able to yell out the title of the film before it was done. To make matters worse, the fight, in the context of the film, didn't even have to happen. You can't tell me Superman couldn't just hold Batman down and tell him what he needed to tell him? Really? Or better yet, why couldn't he fly off and save Martha all on his own and leave Batman standing there like a dimwit beside the bat signal? Now that's a movie I'd see.
That is definitly the best approach. Watch it with an open mind.
Going in there with preconceived notions about these characters and a sense of entitlement of what snyder is supposed to deliver you, will only destroy any enjoyment of the movie. Snyder clearly did his own take on these Characters and i like a lot of his choices, it will not take anything away from almost 80 years of comic book history
I can't stress enough that there are dozens of alternative takes on superheroes, in comics as well as animated movies and this should not be such a huge deal.