Are Bond films heavily biased to cater for U.S. audiences?

Perilagu_Khan

Dragonpol wrote:

Suivez_ce_parachute wrote:

WillyGalore wrote:

Bryan Singer is gay and there aren't any themes of homosexuality running through X-Men or Valkyrie or The Usual Suspects?

Well, the X2 scene of Iceman coming out of the closet was almost too much in that matter, so much that the overall mutantphobia = homophobia meaning was then not subtle enough...

Dragonpol wrote:

Yes, but didn't he say something about wanting to explore this perceived homo-eroticism in an interview that was widely publicised. That's what we're getting at in this thread, I think. No smoke without fire and all that jazz. We're much too subtle to use the scatter-gun approach here on MI6 Community.

Well those who fear we will be getting too much homoeroticism, should rememeber that John Logan himself thinks there are some homoerotic tension with Scaramanga in TMWTGG. If you didn't spot them yet, then why would you spot them in the next Bonds ? :)

Interestingly, Kingsley Amis made the same point on Scaramanga and Bond in a 1965 article entitled 'The Story Fleming Dared Not Tell!' on the original TMWTGG novel which he proof-read.

I often hear about this "tension," but, despite reading Gun probably four times, I don't pick up on it. I think there's a certain grudging respect between two tough guys--Scaramanga and Bond--and, of course, there was the speculation in the psychologist's paper about the former possibly being a homosexual, but that's about the end of it--so to speak. And any homoeroticism in the novel certainly never made it to the screen version, IMO.

RogueAgent

Agree, we always hear about vital the American market is when it comes to B/O success? So I think it is a fair point to make.

db5007

Until recent times I would say that many films are made with an American audience bias because America would count for almost half of the cinema-viewing audience in the world. However, in recent years the USA now accounts for less than 50% of box-office takings and places like China and India are the growing markets. Europe is also watching more films too. Movie producers are starting to adapt for this change.

You look at recent films and they are now made for a more international audience and in particular China. The Shanghai scenes in SF were there in part to attract the growing Chinese cinema audience and, though I have not seen it, I understand that Iron Man 3 was made a view towards the Chinese market.

chrisisall

Suivez_ce_parachute wrote:

Well, the X2 scene of Iceman coming out of the closet was almost too much in that matter

I thought that "Have you tried not being a mutant?" line was pretty damn funny though...

Suivez_ce_parachute

db5007 wrote:

Europe is also watching more films too

Or rather, as far as number of viewers are concerned, we're back to the level of the 60s in France for instance. But as the $ is weaker these years, the same money from abroad means more and more $ seen from the USA.

And about Skyfall :
USA : Roughly 36M viewers for 320M people,
Germany+France+UK+Italy+Spain : very similarly, about 34M viewers for 320M

I choose these country so that the figures look the same

But for SF :
USA : Roughly 300M$
Germany+France+UK+Italy+Spain : roughly 340M$ (at the time of the release of SF - with today's rate it would be roughly 360M$...).

However the part that goes to the studio is critical, and change a lot, etc. China should be 25%, before it was 13%, but right now it is currently 0%

db5007 wrote:

You look at recent films and they are now made for a more international audience and in particular China. The Shanghai scenes in SF were there in part to attract the growing Chinese cinema audience and, though I have not seen it, I understand that Iron Man 3 was made a view towards the Chinese market.

Well everyone talks about the cut asked by Chinese, but there are also scenes in the Chinese version of Iron Man III that were not in the US one ! Tony Stark is cured by Chinese medecine in the Chinese version, by a Chinese actor :)

TheWizardOfIce

Oh dear.

What started as a mildly interesting question appears, in the time I have been at work, to have descended into an impenetrable morass of infantile US v UK tit for tat sniping and borderline homophobia.

I can't even begin to be bothered to entangle any of this as once again so many people seem to be incapable of grasping the matter that is being discussed rather than flying off the handle like good old Dubya invading Iraq and thinking someone is having a go at the USA.

It's not an anti American thing it's the fact that the character of Bond is being bastardised (or bastardized if you must).

Americans are perfectly free to call 'trousers' 'pants', 'mathematics' 'math', pointlessly spell 'through' and 'light' 'thru' and 'lite' and numerous other treasonable crimes against the Queen's English if they want but the character of James Bond is not American so such utterances coming forth from his lips ring false. I would be just as irked if he called someone 'a great galah' as Bond is not Australian either (although the thought of the legendary Ray Meagher playing Bond is something I would certainly pay to see).

The fact is the terms 'cell phone' and 'station break' should not feature in a Bond film unless spoken by an American so Willygalore's initial hypothesis seems to hold true - that Bond films have been tailored so that even the cretinous masses who pay good money to watch Transformers 3 will not be confused.

If any Yanks want to take offence at that feel free - there is just as high a proportion of moronic proles in this country too so don't think I'm ripping into you personally (unless of course you are the type of retard who goes to watch the likes of Transformers or Battleship and needs the term 'mobile phone' translating for you).

When entering into such debates I always keep a quote to hand from the great Alpha Papa himself which generally tends to get to the nub:

'The trouble with you Americans is you haven't got a sophisticated sense of humour. Have you heard of Robin's Nest?'

I'm just thankful that the Germans didn't win the war because if they were the dominant culture now instead of saying 'mobile phone' Bond would say 'handy' which (especially if you ever hear someone say it out loud in a camp, Bruno accent) has to be the gayest term for a phone ever devised so judging by some of the questionable comments about John Logan this would wind some people up on here even worse than 'cell phone'.

chrisisall

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

The fact is the terms 'cell phone' and 'station break' should not feature in a Bond film unless spoken by an American

I *thought* I made the "station break" line thing clear with "There were no adverts following Bond's action, but he definitely 'broke' something, hence the Americanism to wind up with a more clever double meaning."
Anyone seeing something wrong for an internationally experienced character to resort to an American (or Australian or Canadian) phrasing to turn out a funnier quip is just being dense IMO. :))

TheWizardOfIce

chrisisall wrote:

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

The fact is the terms 'cell phone' and 'station break' should not feature in a Bond film unless spoken by an American

I *thought* I made the "station break" line thing clear with "There were no adverts following Bond's action, but he definitely 'broke' something, hence the Americanism to wind up with a more clever double meaning."
Anyone seeing something wrong for an internationally experienced character to resort to an American (or Australian or Canadian) phrasing to turn out a funnier quip is just being dense IMO. :))

Anyone thinking that a British person would ever utter this phrase is being even denser. IMO

Why not say 'time for a break' then which actually has a meaning in this country?

The only possible meaning I can come up with for the term 'station break' in Britain is it possibly being some sort of excuse in the 'leaves on the line' vein from British Rail in the 70's explaining why your train wasn't running.

It literally has NO meaning in this country and a British person would never say it despite your desperate attempts to justify it.

chrisisall

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Why not say 'time for a break' then which actually has a meaning in this country?

Well, that would have worked for me... ;)

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

It literally has NO meaning in this country and a British person would never say it despite your desperate attempts to justify it.

So, an agent in Germany, using an American phrase to goof on a international media mogul is just WRONG then?
You must be correct, I will never spell favorite with a 'u' again, or use the word 'whilst' or type 'cheers'. I must conform to my narrow nationality, no matter the international influence.

Silly silly British man. - Andrew from Buffy's final ep
:)) :)>-

WillyGalore

Well it's pleasant to wake up on a morning to find this topic back on track.

Thank you @thewizardofice and @chrisisall for steering us away from all the mild homophobia :-)

Dragonpol

Perilagu_Khan wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

Suivez_ce_parachute wrote:

WillyGalore wrote:

Bryan Singer is gay and there aren't any themes of homosexuality running through X-Men or Valkyrie or The Usual Suspects?

Well, the X2 scene of Iceman coming out of the closet was almost too much in that matter, so much that the overall mutantphobia = homophobia meaning was then not subtle enough...

Dragonpol wrote:

Yes, but didn't he say something about wanting to explore this perceived homo-eroticism in an interview that was widely publicised. That's what we're getting at in this thread, I think. No smoke without fire and all that jazz. We're much too subtle to use the scatter-gun approach here on MI6 Community.

Well those who fear we will be getting too much homoeroticism, should rememeber that John Logan himself thinks there are some homoerotic tension with Scaramanga in TMWTGG. If you didn't spot them yet, then why would you spot them in the next Bonds ? :)

Interestingly, Kingsley Amis made the same point on Scaramanga and Bond in a 1965 article entitled 'The Story Fleming Dared Not Tell!' on the original TMWTGG novel which he proof-read.

I often hear about this "tension," but, despite reading Gun probably four times, I don't pick up on it. I think there's a certain grudging respect between two tough guys--Scaramanga and Bond--and, of course, there was the speculation in the psychologist's paper about the former possibly being a homosexual, but that's about the end of it--so to speak. And any homoeroticism in the novel certainly never made it to the screen version, IMO.

Well, most critics disagree with his theory, you see. Even William Plomer, a homosexual man himself, didn't agree with this theory or with beefing up the narrative to include it.

masterman

To be clear, Bond is a British character But The Bond Movies are "Hollywood" films, aka ALL American.

Matt007

I don't buy the idea of Americans being more stupid than the rest of the world. Culturally different of course, but a trip on a bus round any part of the British isles or watch ITV and you will quickly learn we have more than our fair share of idiots.

What I really dislike is the inclusion of American cultural and linguistic usage to appeal to a lowest common denominator across the pond.

This was at its worst in the Brosnan era.

The single worst line in any Bond film in "Am checkin' out" in Die Anothe day. Spoken in a mid Atlantic brogue. And dropping the 'g' something Bond would never do. My head truly sank when I heard that

I think Skyfall on the other hand is one of the least American and most British bond film ever. And it's refreshing particularly in a world where the American influence spreads to every corner of the globe and erases local and national identity.

It was inconceivable that the UK would be serving coffee, cupcakes and cookies ten years ago. Now it's everywhere.

It was tea buns and biscuits when I was young.

Perilagu_Khan

"And it's refreshing particularly in a world where the American influence spreads to every corner of the globe and erases local and national identity."

I sympathize, Matt, but the EU may be an even more egregious offender in this area.

Matt007

On a cultural level, I disagree.

And outside of Europe too. The first thing I saw in Indonesia getting off the plane was a KFC.

Perilagu_Khan

If the Indonesians don't patronize KFC, it will disappear. It's not a simple one-way street.

And the EU is about far more than merely sponsoring the Euro.

Dragonpol

Perilagu_Khan wrote:

If the Indonesians don't patronize KFC, it will disappear. It's not a simple one-way street.

And the EU is about far more than merely sponsoring the Euro.

Having studied its law and institutions in great depth, I can wearily agree with you on this point.

TheWizardOfIce

chrisisall wrote:

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Why not say 'time for a break' then which actually has a meaning in this country?

Well, that would have worked for me... ;)

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

It literally has NO meaning in this country and a British person would never say it despite your desperate attempts to justify it.

So, an agent in Germany, using an American phrase to goof on a international media mogul is just WRONG then?
You must be correct, I will never spell favorite with a 'u' again, or use the word 'whilst' or type 'cheers'. I must conform to my narrow nationality, no matter the international influence.

Silly silly British man. - Andrew from Buffy's final ep
:)) :)>-

A man who quotes Buffy to make his rather convoluted and logically questionable point? Hardly Sir Edward Marshall Hall is it?

chrisisall

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

A man who quotes Buffy to make his rather convoluted and logically questionable point? Hardly Sir Edward Marshall Hall is it?

Joss Whedon lived in the UK for a while. And Buffy rules.

Soundofthesinners

For the longest time, it was just the opposite. Americans were almost always portrayed as idiots barely able to get out of their own way long enough to let Bond save them. In Goldfinger, they needed a British operative to stop a terrorist plot in their own soil, in You Only Live Twice, Britain needed to talk America out of nuclear war, in Live and Let Die, it took a British agent to stop an American drug ring (same in Licence to Kill), in GoldenEye, Jack Wade swears that there's no way Trevelyan could build the satellite dish in Cuba, only to find that he did, in Tomorrow Never Dies, Carver decides to start World War III with the British instead of the Americans, and in Quantum of Solace, the CIA will gladly hop into bed with Greene and Quantum over the presumed oil in Bolivia.

Not to mention that in the films except Casino Royale, Felix serves primarily as James's helplessly less awesome sidekick and support staff, who is at most a near-equal partner and at worst John Terry. I will not dignify Jack Wade any more than his regrettably necessary previous two mentions.

All this far outweighs using expressions like cell phone and station break (which I don't remember having heard outside the context of Tomorrow Never Dies).

chrisisall

Thanks for the view from the other perspective!

Matt007

Regarding bonds are homosexual side in Skyfall, I thought his quip "how do you know this is my first time" was merely an attempt to dilute the threat of silvas advances. Not an admission of past sexual activity.

TheWizardOfIce

chrisisall wrote:

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

A man who quotes Buffy to make his rather convoluted and logically questionable point? Hardly Sir Edward Marshall Hall is it?

Joss Whedon lived in the UK for a while. And Buffy rules.

I don't think you're missing the point slightly.

BAIN123

Soundofthesinners wrote:

For the longest time, it was just the opposite. Americans were almost always portrayed as idiots barely able to get out of their own way long enough to let Bond save them. In Goldfinger, they needed a British operative to stop a terrorist plot in their own soil, in You Only Live Twice, Britain needed to talk America out of nuclear war, in Live and Let Die, it took a British agent to stop an American drug ring (same in Licence to Kill), in GoldenEye, Jack Wade swears that there's no way Trevelyan could build the satellite dish in Cuba, only to find that he did, in Tomorrow Never Dies, Carver decides to start World War III with the British instead of the Americans, and in Quantum of Solace, the CIA will gladly hop into bed with Greene and Quantum over the presumed oil in Bolivia.

Not to mention that in the films except Casino Royale, Felix serves primarily as James's helplessly less awesome sidekick and support staff, who is at most a near-equal partner and at worst John Terry. I will not dignify Jack Wade any more than his regrettably necessary previous two mentions.

All this far outweighs using expressions like cell phone and station break (which I don't remember having heard outside the context of Tomorrow Never Dies).

Great post. If you don't like Jack Wade I'd like to hear your thoughts on Michael Madsen.

"You think I'd leave this in the hands of the British?"

Dragonpol

Soundofthesinners wrote:

For the longest time, it was just the opposite. Americans were almost always portrayed as idiots barely able to get out of their own way long enough to let Bond save them. In Goldfinger, they needed a British operative to stop a terrorist plot in their own soil, in You Only Live Twice, Britain needed to talk America out of nuclear war, in Live and Let Die, it took a British agent to stop an American drug ring (same in Licence to Kill), in GoldenEye, Jack Wade swears that there's no way Trevelyan could build the satellite dish in Cuba, only to find that he did, in Tomorrow Never Dies, Carver decides to start World War III with the British instead of the Americans, and in Quantum of Solace, the CIA will gladly hop into bed with Greene and Quantum over the presumed oil in Bolivia.

Not to mention that in the films except Casino Royale, Felix serves primarily as James's helplessly less awesome sidekick and support staff, who is at most a near-equal partner and at worst John Terry. I will not dignify Jack Wade any more than his regrettably necessary previous two mentions.

All this far outweighs using expressions like cell phone and station break (which I don't remember having heard outside the context of Tomorrow Never Dies).

Well, perhaps the creator of James Bond, Ian Fleming is to blame for all this. Just look at how the American character and head of SHAPE, Colonel Schrieber is portrayed in the rather forgotten short story 'From A View to A Kill' (1960) to see what is perhaps the origin of this theme of British superiority over the Americans. In James Bond's defence I would point out that as a citizen of the UK, Bond is British and he is our hero first and foremost. We're very proud indeed of him here and gung-ho American heroes are two a penny in Hollywood, so allow us British our extravagance please.

chrisisall

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

I don't think you're missing the point slightly.

Well, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

WillyGalore

chrisisall wrote:

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

I don't think you're missing the point slightly.

Well, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, such a great gag that I couldn't resist) ;-)

MajorDSmythe

Dragonpol wrote:

Well, perhaps the creator of Bond Ian Fleming is to blame for all this. Just look at how the American character and head of SHAPE, Colonel Schrieber is portrayed in the rather forgotten short story 'From A View to A Kill' (1960) to see what is perhaps the origin of this theme of British superiority over the Americans. In James Bond's defence I would point out that as a citizen of the UK, Bond is British and he is our hero first and foremost. We're very proud indeed of him here and gung-ho American heroes are two a penny in Hollywood, so allow us British our extravagance please.

That sums it up. Usually it's the US of A that has to sort out everyone else's problems. So it's a pleasant change for a british character to have to do the same.

Dragonpol

MajorDSmythe wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

Well, perhaps the creator of Bond Ian Fleming is to blame for all this. Just look at how the American character and head of SHAPE, Colonel Schrieber is portrayed in the rather forgotten short story 'From A View to A Kill' (1960) to see what is perhaps the origin of this theme of British superiority over the Americans. In James Bond's defence I would point out that as a citizen of the UK, Bond is British and he is our hero first and foremost. We're very proud indeed of him here and gung-ho American heroes are two a penny in Hollywood, so allow us British our extravagance please.

That sums it up. Usually it's the US of A that has to sort out everyone else's problems. So it's a pleasant change for a british character to have to do the same.

Yes, and his overt Britishness is what makes James Bond so very different from any other type of hero, in my view.

WillyGalore

Dragonpol wrote:

MajorDSmythe wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

Well, perhaps the creator of Bond Ian Fleming is to blame for all this. Just look at how the American character and head of SHAPE, Colonel Schrieber is portrayed in the rather forgotten short story 'From A View to A Kill' (1960) to see what is perhaps the origin of this theme of British superiority over the Americans. In James Bond's defence I would point out that as a citizen of the UK, Bond is British and he is our hero first and foremost. We're very proud indeed of him here and gung-ho American heroes are two a penny in Hollywood, so allow us British our extravagance please.

That sums it up. Usually it's the US of A that has to sort out everyone else's problems. So it's a pleasant change for a british character to have to do the same.

Yes, and his overt Britishness is what makes James Bond so very different from any other type of hero, in my view.

Which all brings us, very nicely, full circle to the original question posed. Good contributions from everyone involved. =D>