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Why people like Snowden, Manning and Assange are dangerous
WHY PEOPLE LIKE SNOWDEN, MANNING AND ASSANGE ARE DANGEROUS
Recently I have been following Russian politics in greater detail. Mainly because of an acquintance of mine. His name is Kris van der Veen and is a city councillor for the Green Party in the city of Groningen. I used to work with my own party Democrats 66 (http://site.d66.nl/d66nl/item/a_brief_sketch_of_the_party) in the city council of Groningen and while I working there I had the honour to work with Kris.
by: Gustav_Graves (Gert Waterink)
Early this year he came with the idea of making a documentary about gay rights in Russia. Especially in Groningen's Russian twin sister city Murmansk. What happened there startled me. Kris and his team got arrested for 'spreading homosexual propaganda', which is since 2013 forbidden. Not only that, but an entire package of anti-gay laws have been approved by president Putin. Culturally, Russia has never been to friendly to gay people. But these new laws are something of a 'new thing' for Russia, as Putin's predecessor Jeltsin didn't focus on these kind of 'prosecution laws'. In fact, these new anti-gay laws and many other new anti-democratic laws turns Russia slowly into that country we once all feared: The Soviet Union.
Dutch gay rights activist Kris van der Veen amidst three lesbian Russians
It is this fact I want to stress here, because I think the so called 'freedom fighters' like Snowden, Manning and Assange are only facilitating rising world powers like Russia and China. Strictly personal, I actually do understand their freedom ideals. I think what the PRISM-scandal is showing us, could indeed be dangerous for certain aspects of freedom in the western world. And by no means means I want to glorify bugging and eavesdropping. Especially for countries like The Netherlands and the United States, that have a long, intense culture of 'freedom for all', it now collides very much with what Dutch, American and other western secret intelligence services are doing.
Still, I do believe we need to open our eyes and stop being so naïve. This especially counts for the 'Robin Hood's' of freedom Snowden, Manning and Assange. Bugging, eavesdropping and many other practices of intelligence organisations have always been among us, in both the western world and the 'old countries' behind the iron curtain. Even way before World War II started. In my opinion they are facilitating the power of a certain nation, but with that it also helps the nature of a country to remain that way. The KGB made off course sure that the Soviet Union could exist for such a long time, but for a samilar reason the CIA makes sure that the USA can stay the same USA like it has always been.
Demonstration against Obama, supporting Edward Snowden
And that's the difference between western secret intelligence services and secret intelligence services from China or mother Russia. Whereas in the end the KGB (now FSB) facilitates the capitalist-dictatorial nature of Russia, thus endangering freedom and human rights, intelligence services like the British MI6, the American CIA and NSA and the Dutch AIVD in the end are always facilitating freedom. Yes, ever since 9/11 freedom has been a big discussion point, but let's not forget that the USA didn't attack itself. And as of 2013 we have an American president that stands up for gay rights completely, making it for gay couples way more easier to start their own families. That is something we cannot say from mother Russia.
For that reason my initial understanding of Snowden's, Manning's and Assange's ideological view of freedom made me support them slightly. But as I write this, this has completely changed. I have lost every respect for these so-called 'freedom-fighters'. They are naïve and quickly they loose every bit of credibility, especially when you compare them with real freedom fighters like my acquintance Kris van der Veen.
Moreover, it seems that a guy like Snowden is not realizing that the Russian approval for his asylum there is nothing but an old Cold War-esque game of chess he got himself into. The Russians are not giving him asylum for purposes of freedom?! On the contrary, Snowden will be pampered by Russia to such an extent, that he will even support Russia's state security in favour of his own birth nation USA.
President Putin attacked by a woman from Ukrainian Feminist Group 'Femen'
Because what would happen if Snowden was a former critic of Putin and a former employee of the Federalnaja Sloezjba Bezopasnosti (The Russian FSB) and was defecting to, let's say, The United States or The United Kingdom? Well, that's quite easy to predict, as there is a real-life case of exactly the same matter. Back in 2006 former KGB-agent Aleksandr Litvinenko was killed by the highly radio-active and toxic Polonium-210. Current British intelligence reports say that most likely Russians are behind the murder. And we know Litvinenko is not the only one suffering from this Russian international prosecution.
So the question should really be: Would The United States of America kill off Snowden on Russian soil? Most likely not. Compared to Russia, the USA still have some good faith in other rising superpowers. And Snowden should ask himself that. Because no matter how important freedom and democracy is for his own ideals, he isn't realizing that his own crusade against the USA is damaging freedom and democracy on the long term for many western nations. Snowden doesn't see the 'big picture' and that makes him dangerous.
Aleksandr Litvinenko suffering from the consequences of Polonium-210 poisoning
So I seriously think Snowden should be severely punished in his home country. The bit of trust the USA has in Russia is now also openly, in the media, fading away. We need to point our fingers to Snowden for that. And moreover, real freedom fighters like Dutch gay rights activist Kris van der Veen get victimized by this dangerous game Snowden is playing. Kris can now not enter Russia and Groningen's twin sister city Murmansk for three years. And in the meanwhile Mother Russia smiles....... Please dear readers, try to see the 'bigger picture' and be very careful in judging cases like those of Snowden. Because in the end it's the countrywide, no, even global freedom, privacy and democracy that is at stake.
As Spock once said: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....". Off course this sentence shouldn't be read very black-and-white, because there are certain nuances that could result in different interpretations. But for the Snowden-case, I think it fits the situation nicely.
Recently I have been following Russian politics in greater detail. Mainly because of an acquintance of mine. His name is Kris van der Veen and is a city councillor for the Green Party in the city of Groningen. I used to work with my own party Democrats 66 (http://site.d66.nl/d66nl/item/a_brief_sketch_of_the_party) in the city council of Groningen and while I working there I had the honour to work with Kris.
by: Gustav_Graves (Gert Waterink)
Early this year he came with the idea of making a documentary about gay rights in Russia. Especially in Groningen's Russian twin sister city Murmansk. What happened there startled me. Kris and his team got arrested for 'spreading homosexual propaganda', which is since 2013 forbidden. Not only that, but an entire package of anti-gay laws have been approved by president Putin. Culturally, Russia has never been to friendly to gay people. But these new laws are something of a 'new thing' for Russia, as Putin's predecessor Jeltsin didn't focus on these kind of 'prosecution laws'. In fact, these new anti-gay laws and many other new anti-democratic laws turns Russia slowly into that country we once all feared: The Soviet Union.
Dutch gay rights activist Kris van der Veen amidst three lesbian Russians
It is this fact I want to stress here, because I think the so called 'freedom fighters' like Snowden, Manning and Assange are only facilitating rising world powers like Russia and China. Strictly personal, I actually do understand their freedom ideals. I think what the PRISM-scandal is showing us, could indeed be dangerous for certain aspects of freedom in the western world. And by no means means I want to glorify bugging and eavesdropping. Especially for countries like The Netherlands and the United States, that have a long, intense culture of 'freedom for all', it now collides very much with what Dutch, American and other western secret intelligence services are doing.
Still, I do believe we need to open our eyes and stop being so naïve. This especially counts for the 'Robin Hood's' of freedom Snowden, Manning and Assange. Bugging, eavesdropping and many other practices of intelligence organisations have always been among us, in both the western world and the 'old countries' behind the iron curtain. Even way before World War II started. In my opinion they are facilitating the power of a certain nation, but with that it also helps the nature of a country to remain that way. The KGB made off course sure that the Soviet Union could exist for such a long time, but for a samilar reason the CIA makes sure that the USA can stay the same USA like it has always been.
Demonstration against Obama, supporting Edward Snowden
And that's the difference between western secret intelligence services and secret intelligence services from China or mother Russia. Whereas in the end the KGB (now FSB) facilitates the capitalist-dictatorial nature of Russia, thus endangering freedom and human rights, intelligence services like the British MI6, the American CIA and NSA and the Dutch AIVD in the end are always facilitating freedom. Yes, ever since 9/11 freedom has been a big discussion point, but let's not forget that the USA didn't attack itself. And as of 2013 we have an American president that stands up for gay rights completely, making it for gay couples way more easier to start their own families. That is something we cannot say from mother Russia.
For that reason my initial understanding of Snowden's, Manning's and Assange's ideological view of freedom made me support them slightly. But as I write this, this has completely changed. I have lost every respect for these so-called 'freedom-fighters'. They are naïve and quickly they loose every bit of credibility, especially when you compare them with real freedom fighters like my acquintance Kris van der Veen.
Moreover, it seems that a guy like Snowden is not realizing that the Russian approval for his asylum there is nothing but an old Cold War-esque game of chess he got himself into. The Russians are not giving him asylum for purposes of freedom?! On the contrary, Snowden will be pampered by Russia to such an extent, that he will even support Russia's state security in favour of his own birth nation USA.
President Putin attacked by a woman from Ukrainian Feminist Group 'Femen'
Because what would happen if Snowden was a former critic of Putin and a former employee of the Federalnaja Sloezjba Bezopasnosti (The Russian FSB) and was defecting to, let's say, The United States or The United Kingdom? Well, that's quite easy to predict, as there is a real-life case of exactly the same matter. Back in 2006 former KGB-agent Aleksandr Litvinenko was killed by the highly radio-active and toxic Polonium-210. Current British intelligence reports say that most likely Russians are behind the murder. And we know Litvinenko is not the only one suffering from this Russian international prosecution.
So the question should really be: Would The United States of America kill off Snowden on Russian soil? Most likely not. Compared to Russia, the USA still have some good faith in other rising superpowers. And Snowden should ask himself that. Because no matter how important freedom and democracy is for his own ideals, he isn't realizing that his own crusade against the USA is damaging freedom and democracy on the long term for many western nations. Snowden doesn't see the 'big picture' and that makes him dangerous.
Aleksandr Litvinenko suffering from the consequences of Polonium-210 poisoning
So I seriously think Snowden should be severely punished in his home country. The bit of trust the USA has in Russia is now also openly, in the media, fading away. We need to point our fingers to Snowden for that. And moreover, real freedom fighters like Dutch gay rights activist Kris van der Veen get victimized by this dangerous game Snowden is playing. Kris can now not enter Russia and Groningen's twin sister city Murmansk for three years. And in the meanwhile Mother Russia smiles....... Please dear readers, try to see the 'bigger picture' and be very careful in judging cases like those of Snowden. Because in the end it's the countrywide, no, even global freedom, privacy and democracy that is at stake.
As Spock once said: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....". Off course this sentence shouldn't be read very black-and-white, because there are certain nuances that could result in different interpretations. But for the Snowden-case, I think it fits the situation nicely.
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Comments
Assange is an egotist and does it for the benefit for his own image...and of course he's a rapist as well, I feel sorry or the woman who he assaulted and has been forgotten for the sake of 'knowing the truth'.
Snowden I have a lot of time for, even now this thread has been vetted by some US bot because I typed in the word Snowden....scary stuff. With food, water, oil and land running out a new world order is coming and we need to be controlled, we are the walking dead.
Don't go blaming Russian anti-gay laws on Snowden or Assange. They have nothing to do with it.
On Assange's alleged rape allegations: Swedish law is extremely strict. Just touching someone in a sexual context can be seen as rape there. Yes, I think he should stand trial (remember he's not convicted at all, we don't know if it's true!) but it should be done in such a way that he gets a fair trial. Same goes for his extradition to the US. But somehow I have the feeling it's going to be really hard to give him a fair trial there.
And again, same goes for Snowden. I think he too should stand trial, but there are quite a few problems with that. American judges are seldomly impartial and politicians have always tried to influence them. The fact that Snowden's actions showed that the US are breaking international laws will not be counted in his favour.
So what you're basically are saying is that these two should hang because they're not helping in a fight you personally find more important. I think that you might feel very ashamed in the future when you find that whilst you were fighting the one fight, the other got lost. Snowden and Assange have, in an odd way, been fighting for democracy. That is imo very important. Gay rights will only be safe in a democracy.
And then on your trust of Western Intelligence: you read the story of the family where the father was looking for backpacks on the internet and the mother checking for pressure cookers? They had a SWAT team in their house because of that.
I.m.o Your d66 point of view about geo politics isn't right. It's not about democracy, but "special interest" (a.k.a. making money). Intelligence is used for that.
A Russian dissident died in our Dutch jail, very suspicious! We need Russian gas, you get the picture?
I have to agree, the man is truly a criminal in this respect.
Snowden? I actually respect him for thumbing his nose at our intelligence apparatus by showing how little they regard a citizen's right to privacy. I don't have an issue with investigating suspicious characters of foreign or domestic origin, but a good law abiding citizen ought to have the right to know what's being done in the interest of public safety and an explanation for otherwise intruding in areas where they don't belong. There needs to be a clear line drawn between national security and informational privacy. They still treat us like ignoramuses in the face of clear evidence to the contrary such as UFO sightings by massive amounts of people at the same time, offer excuses no one in their right mind would believe, and have policies designed to to ridicule those who would. We're only as free as they want us to be, and our rights are violated or otherwise curtailed on a regular basis. Granted a democracy is preferable to a dictatorship, but there are always strings attached.
Otherwise, not being gay, I have no dog in this fight and no comment.
There's one huge difference though between intelligence agencies in the 'old west' (United States, Europe, Canada, Australia, New-Zealand) and the more ruthless secret services operating nowadays in countries like China and Russia.
Watch the German movie 'Das Leben Der Anderen' ('The Live Of Others'). A must-see if you ask me, especially since this discussion is about intelligence services affecting our freedom, our privacy, thus our democracy.
The story is about the ruthless East-German sister agency from the KGB, the StaSi. A guy like Snowden, like Assange should watch this movie for a change, then asking themselves if today the CIA, the NSA, the AIVD or MI6 can truly be compared with the East-German StaSi. Well guys, I do know the answer to that.
Do the secret services from the 'old west' invade our privacies, if compared with the East-German StaSi? But off course. Is that something new? Off course not. By jolly, do you really believe we 'westerners' are more sweeter than the average KGB- or FSB-agent? By no means. The only thing that is happening right now is the fact that guys like Manning, Snowden and Assange bring something important to our attention. That is that freedom is not something of certainty....and that it already invades our privacy.
But apart from invading our privacy, do they really invade our freedom? Off course not. And that's the difference between MI6, NSA and CIA on one hand and the KGB (Belarus), FSB (Russia) and Zhong Chan Er Bu (China) on the other hand.
Because the very movie I just mentioned above, is completely forbidden in the 'great' People's Republic Of China. And the death of Aleksandr Litvinenko (was seeking asylum, thus freedom, in the UK) because of Polonium is most certainly a case of getting this 'Russian traitor' out of Mother Russia's harmsway.
And THAT is exactly the thing men like Snowden and Assange must refer to as well. Because all the demonstrations I see on the streets now, blaiming president Obama for all these PRISM-scandals........well really guys.......that's overblown and in my opinion ludicrous!!
The FACT that in this so called 'Old West' we CAN actually demonstrate in freedom is completely forgotten, most importantly by Snowden and Assange! It shows us how our OWN western inventions of freedom, like social media (Facebook, Twitter) and journalism (CNN, Fox News) are exactly destroying the very same kind of freedom!! And guys like Snowden are only enhancing and accelerating the 'decay of real freedom'. Snowden himself doesn't see it this way, because he is too busy with himself and his own narcistic 'vision of freedom'.
Because in the end Snowden gets asylum in a country were demonstrating is completely prohibited (Russia) and where Russian citizens are being chased after by the FSB if they 'defect' to another western country (Aleksandr Litvinenko). And no, this is not 1963, this is 2013 we are talking about. So let us 'westerners' get a grip on ourselves man! We are destroying our own 'western cultural and social cohesion' by letting ourselves become our own little dictators on Facebook and Twitter. Thus destroying our real freedom in the near future and letting countries like Russia and China walk all over the 'old west'. And if we do not act quickly, Russia and China are in to win this 'Second Cold War'.
So my tip to Snowden? Have the guts and balls to demonstrate against Russia too. You are NOW their citizen for one year. Let's see which countries on this planet the real prosecutors are!
Hahaha, no, by no means. Allthough a channel like Fox News gives you some insight in how we treat or own freedom. Isn't it :-)?
I think after the hammering that the Japanese gave the Russians in the 1905 Russo-Japanese War you'll be safe enough there, @4EverBonded!
Because Hokkaido is so close to Russia, I am sure we (U.S. and Japan) have listening posts throughout. Would only stand to reason.
I agree with GustavGraves, by the way, that there is a huge difference between democracy, even with its faults and privacy issues, and countries that are not democratic.
But it´s true also that through platforms like facebook and through using cell phones a majority of those citizens is anyhow offering their privacy up to anyone who wants it, not just their own government, but foreign governments as well, and anyone else interested and equipped with some technical toys.
You remember why so many Dutch Jews were put on transport to concentration camps? Because the Dutch democratic government had collected all this information. When the Nazi's came, they just had to open the files.
You tell me then that there's no thread like that anymore, and I'll tell you that such forces can get to power in a democratic way. Russia is a 'democratic' country these days anyway. But propaganda does a lot.
Then you're claiming especially the US is doing well and NSA's programmes are there to protect the people. This is the same country where blacks still often get higher centenses for the same crime, where gay marriage is only allowed in parts of the country and gays in other parties btter not tell anyone they're gay, for they may not be state-prosecuted, but they will be 'prosecuted'by their neighbours.
p.s. the CIA don't spy at home, that's the FBI's job, and neither does MI6, they leave it to MI5.
I think it's a perfect fair argument to be honest. Am I using WikiLeaks? Am I leaking top secret stuff that should protect nations.....on social media? I think not. Moreover, if you compare my platform -the MI6 forums- with Snowden's platform -strongly enhanced by Russian sympathizers-, you'll see a bit of a difference no?
It's not so much about promoting views in a free and transparent way. It's more about the difficult-to-see causes on a larger, long-term scale. I only wish to point that out. That's a different opinion yes. But am I doing the 'Manning-way' or the 'Assange-way'? Endangering domestic security by actually leaking top secret stuff? I don't think so. What I write here is by no means dangerous to long-term freedom, transparency and democracy.
The biggest danger however is perhaps the fact that he isn't realizing what his vision of transparency and freedom is causing to the transparency and freedom on a larger scale, a supranational scale. That frightens me.
By the way, did you read this article today about Bradley Manning? It only confirms what I was fearing:
Bradley Manning was a very uncertain, psychologically unstable person. Thus endangering the security of a whole nation. Those are the 'idealists' who can be dangerous when they practise their ideals the easy, less effective way and not the hard, more effective way.
Now you should ask yourself if Bradley Manning will be sentenced to death, like it was done in the recent history within the Soviet Union. Your answer will be 'No'. Manning doesn't need to fear for his life. And most likely his testimony will severely lower the 90 year sentence that he is prosecuted for.
Now if I compare Bradley Manning's poorly executed freedom/transparency actions with those of a true asylumseeker like Alexandr Litvinenko who was even fearing his OWN freedom outside Russia, one can conclude one important thing here:
Russia is even willing to chase their own citizens to death by poisoning them. Bradley Manning does not need to fear that kind of dictatorial antique SMERSH-like prosecution. That's the difference between 'freedom' Manning is talking about and the 'freedom' Litvinenko was seeking.
You keep on claiming Manning endangered the security of the US? Tell me, how many people died as a result of his actions? And by the way, how did we leearn the US were committing war crimes in Iraq and Afganisthan?
Getting back to that big picture of yours: how many local Iraqis should be tortured to death to safe a Russian gay person?
It's a bigger picture obviously. Manning will most likely not be locked up for 90 years. But since when are we actually questionning or own secret services man??? I think we are plain naive and also arrogant enough to think guys like Manning, Snowden and Assange are our true western saviors.
Have you actually SEEN 'Skyfall'? A movie that perfectly tackles this theme. We need secret services to actually keep our western freedom, democracy and transparency. By jolly, saying that we don't need them means we're denying our entire western past. It means I'm attacking my own prosperity, because believe me.....the Dutch Secret Service knows what eavesdropping/bugging/tracking. Actually, recently our Dutch Foreign Minister admitted that there are bugs in evere office or committee room in the European Parliament!
Diplomats and ambassadors know this. And this will always be a part of foreign politics.....andddd foreign economics. A guy like Manning now realizes what he did. Sadly, Assange doesn't. He thinks leaking more cables and top secret documents is the key to more democracy and freedom. Bullocks. It destroys them!
Regarding freedom.....I'm not the person to put things in black and white, because I know this discussion is as grey and shadowy as it can be. But if you think that sentencing someone to a life in well-equipped prisons is as bad as sentencing someone to death......you need to put an eyeglass on all aspects of freedom. Because if someone dies much more than his/her freedom is taken away. It also takes away your soul and your life! Something you still have once you are in prison for life.
I disagree with you as that Russia shows itself currently to be a dangerous ally while the US has been listening in on its allies, allowed their Bankingsystem to be deregulised with all known consequences, the Drones program was outed otherwise we would never have known how outragious the actions taken were. Who needs friends with allies like this.
I disagree that the three you keep mentioning are a danger for democracy and freedom, they pointed out in their various ways that a lot of unsaviour behaviour goes on that people should know about. And WE should know about it.
As for the Dutch goverment, if it got out that the current goverment does not have a clue or and original idea to tackle the crisis it would cost them votes. But as always they rely on outdated ideas and cost our society more and more money. SO anything that is secret about them should be outed as soon as possible. Perhaps people would rise up against them.
I'm all for more transparancy, and I think the case the US are making against Manning will only harm them, instead of making them trustworthy. But even though I could keep on talking about this for hours (I work in the field of Information Management with our own Government) I won't. It's too complex and it would bore the hell out of many people. When I've written it all down, if I ever want to, i'll let you know.
edit august 19th. And just to show you how 'friendly' Western services are:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23750289
Don't forget that these services are run by people, and though I do agree they generally do good work, they should also be kept in check.
As a Brit myself, I am really quite uncomfortable with how the British authorities have conducted themselves in this instance:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23761918
It's more or less what I expected. I heard figures like '90 years', '60 years' or even 'prison for life'/ Nothing like that has happened. 35 years is perfect, considering his own psycological circumstances. But for Manning this will feel like a severe punishment. As he should be.....
Could you please stop commenting on things you obviously lack the depth of Intellect and Knowledge to do so. I refrained posting on this thread untill now (mainly because I think this is probably the wrong Place to discuss such a sensitive matter and I'm getting enough flack already for my opinions). But the self-righteousness and ignorance you are diplaying is simply unbearable. After all this Manning only wanted crimes to be known (or how else would you call the intentional killing of civilists out of a heli "just for Fun"). It is not that he applied to spy for Russia or whomever. No one disputes that we need Intelligence Agencys (at least I don't) but nowadays their sole reason d'etre seems to spy on their OWN PEOPLE , to fail and to cover up those failures. You probably doubt,but whenever something happens (take for example 9.11, London or Boston bombings ...) we learn afterwards that they had had all the Information needed to prevent them, but were simply to dumb (or even worse) to recognize it. Hell,the russians even called to inform them about the elder of the two Boston guys and they weren't able to something and all guys like you are doing is standing by and applaude them for breaking the law and worse. It is simply annoying (if not worse)!!!
@Matt_Helm, "I'm getting enough flack already for my opinions" makes sense if you read your post. @Gustav_Graves does his saying without getting personal to anyone here on the forum. Then you drop by to accuse him of being dumb and uninformed, self-righteously moralistic and uneducated. Do you merely expect Gustav_Graves to respond to you in equal terms or do you really want him to, that's what I'm wondering. Why don't you start by saying "I disagree and here's why" and then proceed to your more or less impersonal statements, instead of spending the first half of your post being very condescending and provocative towards another member.