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It's the more full renditions of the theme that I'm more referring to here. These can be way overdone like Kamen's effort, but most composers will find a way of including subtle nods here and there, four chords here, two over there. Other than "Breadcrumbs", you're mostly referring to "The Bloody Shot" and "She's Mine". The rest is more of a two chord/four chord nod here and there and it just felt more or less no more epic nor extensive than what Arnold gave us previously in say, Casino Royale. And perhaps part of my problem here is that considering I find Newman overall more technically advanced and versatile than Arnold, I expected more than I got in an original sense and what I felt he was capable of in this particular effort. I felt he was as repetitive as much as anyone else when I listened to the soundtrack as a standalone. Whereas Arnold, and I am consciously trying to keep the conversation focused here on Newman rather than comparisons to others in order to fairly judge it, exceeded my expectations with QOS. I felt it was more diverse from track to track. Which is why I felt that was a better effort than this one. Unlike discussing music in technical terms, personal taste in music is all subjective and there's no right and wrong answer there.
I would not remotely dispute that the soundtrack is very much a Newman effort consistent with his style. I'm familiar with many of his works and his stamp is all over it. Now this is just my personal taste speaking here as it is for any and all who comment on the subject, but from having Bond soundtracks ingrained in some of my earliest childhood memories and being from a family where the last 3 generations have contained performance musicians, I tend to make my initial judgements strictly by my "ear" before digging in on a technical level. And perhaps it is nostalgic in the sense that "nobody does it better" than Barry, but I have yet to hear anyone produce a better and more original Bond soundtrack since George Martin to date.
That's brilliant Shark, thank you for saying that! I really couldn't understand what he meant by this past the lushness of the strings. I post here during the day from work and I'm so busy with my teenagers at night that I rarely get the chance to pick up my guitar and noodle around with Bond music. Strictly on what my ear says, the technical structure and overall tone of the strings sounds much more Newman than Barry.
Fascinating. This sort of modern process, as our English cousins would say, I am "very keen" about. I ordered the Jon Burlingame book on Bond music (and am salivating waiting to read it) and always thought until recently that the composer pretty much had carte blanche to run his own show here. I guess I'll find out if I was right or wrong so don't spoil it for me! :) This explains why Barb, the Wilsons, and Mendes were present.
This is where we get into the old "tribute, pastiche, aping" objections to Arnold. I love the plunger muted trumpets and it's part of why I love "Breadcrumbs" and it's what I interpret as "Bondian music". And many people here recognize this aspect in the brass, as well as a certain tone to the strings, and variations of the title song in the soundtrack. Just by reading many comments over my 5 years here from the layman, it's something people recognize and enjoy and so why not give it to them? It's the "franchise music" I speak of and it's not an unheard of concept. In a tonal sense, the Adele title theme is monochromatic as far as the instruments being used, but I find that the song itself is more versatile as far as the ability to be used and variated in action and romance. Newman does bring a bit of this in "The Bloody Shot" and I could have stood to hear more of it as many others have also noted, it's "Bondian". Two instances only including this and "Komodo Dragon". By way of necessary comparison, Arnold uses the YKMN theme at least briefly in 8 different songs in CR. The bridge of the title song is very lovely, and could have been used when Bond was recovering with Sotiropoulou and would have been much better than the very limp "Close Shave". Which is why myself and others have remarked about Newman, and perhaps to be fair everyone else involved with the modern scoring process, didn't utilize the song as well as it could have been to give the movie an equally sounding "Bondian" identity as much as his own.
By the way, did my old sparring buddy DC find the "Skyfall experience" more appealing to his sense of "Bondian"?. He doesn't bother with us here any more.
It's a veritable graveyard at the moment. Not much to mod, but one tries. :)
Well, I'll have to object there, as aside from African Rundown, Blunt Instrument The Tell and a few others tracks, I find a Arnold's Casino Royale a dull, joyless experience. Too much Independence Day-style overblown orchestral bludgeoning from Nic Raine, with Miami International being the worst offender. Newman's score strikes the right balance for me - keeping the scale and scope, but without going overboard. It's much leaner and tauter than any of Arnold's scores (even QoS). With Bond music, sometimes less is more. Just keep it loud and sexy.
I liked this post by TheManwiththeWaltherPPK on Cb.n.
Well, if we're going to swing around musical bonafides, while I don't come from a lineage of performers (except my father). I'm 21, and got a Grade 8 on cello by the age of 15, self-taught on the piano and electric bass, and am studying composition at the Royal College of Music.
We all make our first judgements by ear. If you happen to have any technical knowledge that will come into play with following listens (FWIW, when the SF score first leaked online I played along to it on the piano, working out all the harmonies and voicings).
I'd agree with that, even if I've still got a lot of love for Bill Conti and Eric Serra's scores.
You won't regret it. It's a terrific, light read. :)
My point was that it's the equivalent of the Brosnan era box-ticking of shoehorning 'shaken not stirred' and 'the name's Bond... James Bond' into every bloody film. The Connery or Moore film never did that. It's a kind of lazy revisionism that only came about in the PoMo '90s, with Britpop and babyboomer nostalgia.
The plunger mutes are a great effect, but best used sparingly, like any effect really. Newman's probably saving them up for the next one (I hope, at least). Maybe as a tribute to the late Derek Watkins, who played the famous plungered notes on Shirley Bassey's Goldfinger at only 19.
No idea. I haven't seen him post for years.
Me, I am easy to please. I'm good with Newman's work except that I want the Bond theme blaring full blast, and properly at full blast, not that restrained rendition we heard during the Breadcrumbs scene, and I do want the title theme very clearly and obviously infused into the score too.
Otherwise I don't care what he does with the rest of the movie.
I want my Bond movies to feel like Bond movies. Harruumph.
I have no interest in their (Mendes and Newman's) lame excuses for not incorporating the JB and SF themes more brazenly into the film.
Too bad Cubby wasn't still around. He wouldn't have put up with their crap, and that gunbarrel never would have left the front of the film either.
I agree David Arnold know that, but this track also be good example of things what be les good. It have a bit to much techno like DA techno use in QOS track 6 ''Somebody Wants To Kill You''.
Newman also succes a bit with shangai drive, but the contuted be partly dispointed (To much TDK like track 20 and 21) and i wish Macau scene's be much better. David Arnold never will make a score who liked on TDK, but possible have been more liked on his ealier TMND Carver Party track.
I don't have an objection to Newman's various nods to the Bond theme in Skyfall. I would have liked the full theme to be a bit more prominent though. QOS suffered from the same problem as well.
In this song, I would have preferred percussion instruments such as congas or bongos rather than synthesized drum beats, the track has some nice Latin flavored guitar and horns and use of real instruments is always preferable. I don't like percussion that comes from a machine.
I'm not always sure I fully understand techno as a form of music as well I probably should, but I don't care for any of Arnold's except for the Hamburg pieces in TND, which were all right because it fit the German locales and popularity of the style there. Newman's "Shanghai Drive" otherwise blows all of Arnold's techno styled pieces away, it's got an urban feel and a great techno sort of backbeat that captures the ultra modern surroundings with the blue highway lights and dazzling neon everywhere.
According to John Burlingame's book, Arnold didn't even compose the music for Carver's party. The shimmering chillout track that opens the sequence (with the porno sax) was written by Simon Greenaway & Sacha Collisson (AKA Aurora).
Thanks for mentioning this. John Barry himself composed all the source music....from loungy, luxury casino scenes to the arrival of James Bond to the Whyte House (DAF).
David Arnold never composed source or background music by himself. This source music from QOS is from Jaime Cuadra, titled 'Cholo Soy'. Most of us know it as Dominic Greene's party music:
To be honest, I think it's quite unfair that we Bond fans tend to give David Arnold the credits for this (Allthough.....all Bond end credits mention this, but it's sad it's kept unnoticed). Luckily, with Thomas Newman we're back on the John Barry track again, as Newman composed his own original music for the casino scenes in Macau in SF.
I did like the song with that porn sax though. I had no idea who wrote it, it isn't on my what I'm told somewhat rare 2000 soundtrack version that includes the excellent Far East music he wrote including the exquisite "Kowloon Bay". Now that is some great music right there.
"Hamburg Break In" is all Arnold, tho, and great it is, even if the first half is just a reworking of Bond Back in Action Again from Barry's Goldfinger. Love the ever-building synth hook in the second half. Very creepy. Very German.
Re: Gustav - DA wrote the lounge source cue "Casino" for TWINE.
Thanks m8. I agree with you here. 'Hamburg Break In' is a wunderful bit of espionage music. Could have been Barry's work. But then again, from all Arnold soundtracks, I find TND the best. Despite the rather unoriginal source music.....
I think he's referring to much of TND's music like the rest of the movie being a deliberate homage to the past. The techno though is a bit different even if you hear some of this as reminiscent of a-ha's electronica contributions in TLD.
Now if we get into all the rest of Arnold's work being a deliberate "homage" while discounting the fact that the many wonderful melodies were his own and not Barry's, then I'll back you up there :)
Perhaps. But then again it was the 90's Techno beats were becoming more dominate in film score. Barry's techno in TLD was very simple "kick kick snare kick kick kick snare" Where Arnold was his own styles with his collab with The Propellerheads. Even Serra used heavy techno. It wasn't because Barry did it. It was the new trend.
What you're hearing is a 100 piece orchestra combined with sampled percussion (using the Fairlight CMI III's Page R sequencer). Everything from rock toms to banged metal pans and high tension coils.
I just hear one tiny bit of melody that repeats itself over and over again. And around that, rather lacklustre, melody....I just hear a lot of noise that doesn't sound stylish nor Bond-esque. Reminds me more of some stuff from Arnold's soundtrack for 'Die Another Day'
Then I prefer this over the example you just posted:
It sounds more 'suave', sounds less 'rushed' and you can hear that Thomas Newman depends more on big orchestra's with lots of strings. And it has a more surprising climax: The moment when Moneypenny (Eve) starts setting up her sniper gun.
By the way. Do we still hear Mark Mancina's work in recent movies? Does he have an active discography? Meaning that he's composing for big quality stuff? The answer is 'No'.
Play this above music track under this video from 2.17-4.34
http://grooveshark.com/#!/search?q=sea++of++love++trevor++jones
The thing is.....this "party source" music is not at all composed, written or produced by David Arnold. Arnold simply asked politely if he could use these tracks from a bunch of unknown lounge artists.
I don't call that particularly creative. At least John Barry created/composed all the source music by himself.
In any case, I'm just curious if they are fans who can relate to the topic title?
That's nothing compared to what Newman stole from Zimmer and Arnold. He didn't even create his own Bond theme arrangement, he had to borrow Arnold's one from Casino Royale. Pathetic.
You think he stole it from Arnold? Why was the police not called then? 8-}
Music from CR was recycled into Skyfall. When the DB5 is revealed and used during the ending credits.
However, it kept me as a fan, did not alienate me, and I was reassured to see some of the familiar elements that I associate with Bond (humour/irony/sarcasm, MI6 crew, male M. grand sweeping cinematography) creeping back in.
CR reignited me as a Bond fan. Loved it. A breath of fresh air in every way and a return to form.
QoS kept me as a fan but it did not create additional passion for me. I was disappointed by the obvious noted flaws with this film (which were self-inflicted IMO), but one thing stood out, for me: EON had the right Bond. Of that I was confident. Craig was very solid in QoS despite that movie's flaws.
SF kept me as a Bond fan and added a small dose of extra passion. I did not like the many plot holes that have been discussed on other threads. However, I loved the characterizations of all the major players (Mendes deserves an 'A' on this) and the cinematography, as well as a new composer (I'm not a fan of Arnold, apart from a few compositions scattered throughout his tenure). I find the characterizations to be much more fleshed out here than in QoS. Only Mathis was sufficiently three dimensional for QoS, but even then, he was already known from CR. Blame the writer's strike for this I think.
So I'm very happy to be a Bond fan at present, because I think they are on the right track. If they can make sure that the humour slowly comes back in without overdoing it, and that they don't resort to excesses (very difficult to do when Box office is at stake) then I think we're alright. I do want the GB at the start, I want a Bond, James Bond moment, and I want a Martini, shaken not stirred.
PS: I do not see the standard Bond theme blaring out every time Bond is in an action scene or doing something 'cool' as being characteristic of the series. Barry did this most often in DN and FRWL when he was getting his feet wet. From then on, he was much more subtle, and far more creative, in how he incorporated it into his compositions (e.g the hovercraft bit with Moneypenny in DAF, and the trip to Osato's office at night in the back seat of the car in YOLT). I much preferred this subtle referencing rather than the more obvious standard blaring out (like a party whistle/horn) that characterized Arnold's Brosnan tenure in particular. It just seems lazy to me. It takes more skill to subtley reference it and incorporate it.....if it's done properly we will make it out.
I too am a happy fan as I think they're on the right track. :)
Because EON paid the rights to Arnold, but it doesn't justify Newman's lack of creativity.
If anything it proved how much a Bond fan i was before this utterly depressing Craig era began in 2006.
Can I ask...how old you are? And if you'd like to elaborate on your comment ;-)?
I am in my mid thirties.Been a Bond fan for as long as i can remember.I have nothing against Daniel Craig personally but think he was a horrible choice for Bond and none of his films have changed that opinion.For me Bond has to have charm and wit as well as being tough and Craigs Bond just comes across as a Jason Staham alike thug.He would have been far better cast as a villain in this series.
As for Skyfall, i think it is just a horribly conceived film with a terrible illogical script that makes Bond and MI6 look like complete and utter morons.I actually felt like cheering when M died.I could go on but to list all my problems with this film would take a lot longer than i have right now.I will say the film looked nice and had some good action but other than that.....ugh.