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For me there was a lot of other things wrong with ROS as well; JJ shoehorning Palpatine's resurgence into the crawl and undoing a lot of what Rian did (for better or for worse), the Sith Wayfinder stuff, the knife pointing to the wayfinder in the wreckage, the stupid party that happens "every 47 years" just so it could coincide with A New Hope.... it was just a very poorly done film. I thought the actual Palpatine stuff was pretty cool, and it was clear to me Rey was a Palpatine from TFA (she kept her british accent and Boyega did not, which was a clue that narrowed it down for me to Palpatine or Kenobi, and then it came down to her fighting style, which was identical to Sheev's from Revenge of the Sith [watch for the jabs]) so I was happy to be vindicated there.
It's interesting you bring up Spectre because I agree with you, I think a lot of Spectre's failings were similar to ROS' failings in that they tried to cram too much into the film and they become incoherent. I still enjoy Spectre much more than ROS though.
I don't really mind any of that, though. It makes an exciting film. I don't think it's brilliant, but it's a big cartoon and it all works. I quite like that the Emperor's return was just dashed off right at the beginning, it fits that nicely cheesy style the crawls have.
And to be honest I think Johnson just left a load of dead ends for the next film: it's like that game where you write a line of a story each on a folded bit of paper and try to sabotage the next person!
And it's not like Johnson didn't do the same with what he was given too. That scene where Luke throws away the lightsaber in a little joke felt vaguely contemptuous to me. I don't get offended on behalf of multimillionaires, but I do wonder if Abrams felt that undermining of his big scene like that was a bit of a slap to the face.
And turning Poe into a dick felt like a misunderstanding of his role in the first one to me. The point of his character is he actually is as good as he seems, and is an old-fashioned hero and just a straight-up good guy.
I don't know what the issues with those are..?
I didn't even realise that one! Do you mean the festival thing in the desert?
The bits I didn't enjoy as much were the nods to things fans have talked about over the years, I can't remember any of them now but they did irritate a bit at the time- I'm not keen on too much meta stuff. Like Chewy getting finally getting his medal at the end: feels like a reply to something Family Guy said once or something which pulls me out of the movie a bit. That 47 years thing (which I didn't notice at all at the time) might be part of that. So the film is set 47 years after New Hope? Leia aged well!
Is it though? It all works, there's lots of space adventure, everything hangs together. Some of it goes a little bland, like I remember tuning out in the desert chase a bit because it's all bit... fine. But it held my interest way more than Last Jedi did, and the jokes were better too.
Good points all round and hard to argue here, especially with your first one (re: the crawl). To me the wayfinders and the knife came across as quite dumb when I watched it for the first time, and there's a good video on YouTube that better articulates the silliness of these items plot-wise than I could, I'll see if I can find it. They're all just manufactured to get everyone to Exegol for the climax and the whole thing is just way too inorganic for me. A man stood in that exact spot, designed the knife so that when you line it up with the Death Star Wreckage it points to the wayfinder, and then hoped another person, with the same knife, would stand also in the exact same spot and hold the knife up in the exact same spot to find the wayfinder? Or are we to explain this away because "the force"?
I remember too, thinking that the beginning was just a montage of Star Wars Greatest Hits: Evil Sith Man on Dark and Scary Planet Killing Things (Ren finding the first Wayfinder), Plucky Crew of Star Fighters Flying Through the Galaxy (Dameron and co. flying around on the Falcon doing whatever "lightspeed skipping" they were doing), and Jedi Padawan Trains In The Jungle with Rock-Force-Lifting (Rey training in the jungle). It struck me as one of those meta occurrences you were talking about that take me out, and make me think "oh yeah, this is the last Star Wars film so they want to make it as Star Wars-y as humanly possible".
I think the Disney sequels suffer from the same issues as the prequels. They’re just poor in quality, with ideas that are interesting in concept that just fall flat. The difference is, the prequels had a solid plan and vision from the moment George starting writing Episode 1, whereas the sequels have had absolutely no consistency in their storytelling. Plot threads started in TFA by JJ Abrams, are undercut in TLJ by Rian Johnson, only for the worst type of fan service to be cooked up for TROS because they realized they messed up. The prequels are many things, but they at least stuck to an overarching concept.
The beginning of TFA is absolutely amazing IMO. The Tie Fighter escape as you mention, Poe and Finn had amazing chemistry there, and also the first flight of the Falcon with Rey and Finn, breathtaking I thought.
Fair points. Lucas is a good ideas guy. I'd say the sequel trilogy, between Abrams and Johnson, is far better directed though.
Oh that bit- sorry I remember now. Yes that doesn't quite make sense- it's a nice Indiana Jones sort of idea but you do need to establish the point at which you stand to see it, yes you're quite right.
I know what you mean: they're all clues which lead to a place like they're in a computer game rather than a movie storyline... but again, for me that's kind of the cheesiness which Star Wars is. Princesses and baddies in black cloaks and all that... but I totally get why some folks wouldn't enjoy it because it's not always an easy sell. If they had done that in a more organic way I wouldn't have been upset, so yeah, it's a fair complaint.
Did you see recently someone did a really very good climax with the Jedi force ghosts appearing? Actually good enough quality to put in the film.
I think honestly, after spending most of the previous film on one bloody island in Ireland, I was genuinely relieved to see all that flying about the galaxy in spaceships- space adventure is what I want, not an old man in robes crying by the sea.
I loved it when they went to the planet of Where Eagles Dare to fix C3PO as well: that was a lovely aesthetic idea for a SW film.
Talking about it has got me in the mood to watch it again, in fact! No, it's not the best film in the world, but it had a bit of fun and pace to it.
TBH I’m in the mood to give it another watch as well.
They are; but because of the lack of consistency for the Sequel trilogy, it ends up bogging it down to the level of the Prequels. Rian Johnson shouldn’t have been given the free reign that he was given. That was the big mistake, having a director who felt little to no responsibility to continue the threads that Abrams started.
I don't agree with that at all, no. As Craig said, the problem with the prequels is that they're atrociously directed, or even not actually directed at all. (It will be fascinating to see MacGregor play Obi Wan again under an actual director). The sequels are very well-directed, so the issues of the two are very different.
And secondly they're not poor in quality at all, I don't know which films seem high in quality after watching those. Force Awakens in particular is a great blockbuster movie which hits high points all the way through, is funny and scary and emotional and exciting and everything it needs to be, and I maintain that it's a better film than the first Star Wars.
Yes, I think possibly the worst aspect of the sequels is that, starting with TLJ, Finn got more and more sidelined. He was present but they didn't know what to do with him and his story just sort of trailed off. Which is shame because he was pretty much the audience identification figure.
I know it's supposed to be awful that Rose got nothing to do in RoS, but I thought her introduction in TLJ was the bad idea: they didn't need any more characters! They already had more than they knew what to do with.
Also that Rey, Finn and Poe were essentially the central core of characters- and they don't even all meet until the end of movie 2! :)
That really is cool as hell.
They are poor in quality though. TFA was nothing much than retreading the exact plot points of “A New Hope” with some minor tweaks here and there. Nothing exactly original there, they played it safe. But to say that it’s better than the original Star Wars is a giant leap too far. “The Last Jedi” suffers from the same kind of dumb, illogical story aspects the Prequels are infamous for. Why go off an a tangent with Finn and Rose Tico to a casino planet, resulting in a B Story that doesn’t go anywhere? Why have the big confrontation with Snoke appear in the 2nd film, only to have him killed off just for the sake of “subverting expectations.” Why have Holdo just dismiss absolutely every single idea that Poe has? Why did Luke, the same Jedi who redeemed his father to the light, attempt to kill Kylo because of minor hints of his inner darkness? Why do Finn and Tico willingly go along with DJ, who they know will betray them, then act like surprised when they are betrayed? Why try to imply some love dynamic at the end between Finn and Tico? And don’t even get me started on the issues with TROS. You may like the sequels, but to suggest that they aren’t on the level of the prequels when they’ve divided the fanbase worse than the prequels ever did contradicts that entirely.
It just is, though. Yes it's basically a remake, but there's not much it doesn't do better. It doesn't have Darth Vader which is a big loss of course, but otherwise... it's just a better film.
That's no shame on Star Wars: like Dr No it was great at the time and it's an important film, and yes it's more original, but in terms of quality it was outshone and improved upon by what came later.
Well I don't defend TLJ, I think it's a very misjudged film as I said earlier and I don't disagree with anything you said.
You missed the major problem logical problem with it: they're trapped in a ship that can't get away from the baddies, so to help in them finding a way to escape, Finn and Rose escape to another planet. So they can find a way to escape :))
I don't really listen to fanbases though, I don't think they speak with very level heads.
RoS is loads of fun and miles above the prequels.
I’m curious as to why you think TFA is better than A New Hope. I’m not trying to drag down your opinion, and if it appears that way I apologize. I can respect that you find TFA better than ANH, but it’s one that I largely disagree with. I think characters like Luke, Leia, and Han have far better chemistry than the likes of Rey, Finn, and Poe, Vader is a superior villain to Ren in every aspect, the cold, calculating presence of Tarkin is far more memorable than any of the bland Admirals/Captains of The First Order. Han Solo just doesn’t fit into the mentor role of Obi Wan in the first film, Solo essentially bailed on his family after things went bad with Kylo, whereas Obi Wan was forced into hiding because of the rise of the empire, which is far more noble; Solo’s death had great impact, but that’s just about it really. His character arc in the original trilogy was downgraded to “deadbeat dad who walked out when things started to get tough with his son”
And again, even though it’s your opinion, I find TROS is just as bad as the prequels, possibly even worse considering how convoluted and ridiculous that film is. To force Palpatine into it was the biggest insult of all; essentially making the victory and redemption of Vader in ROTJ essentially meaningless.
I don’t listen to fanbases either, but even you have to admit the way these films have divided the fanbase points to something that obviously went wrong in the making of the sequels. The Special Editions did just that, as did the Prequels. But the reaction to the sequel trilogy just seems bigger and louder, and I don’t know if it’s because of the “Left vs Right” culture wars debate, or the fact that Social Media plays a huge part in it, but it is there.
Now am I going to imply that Lucas is a better director than Abrams or Johnson. No. The man only has two good films under his belt; American Graffiti and Star Wars, and Star Wars was barley saved in the editing. There’s also the fact Irvin Kirshner was the huge reason why Empire topples Star Wars. He’s a superior director. As mentioned previously, Lucas is an amazing man for ideas and concepts, but has a hard time putting these ideas on the screen. He’s so opposed to “art from adversity”, even Gary Kurtz pointed that out. Kurtz said that Lucas has a hard time accepting other people’s ideas. It’s why Empire, the one he had the least involvement in, turned out to be the very best of the series. Whereas Abrams and Johnson are better directors, dragged down by the lack of guidance from Disney, and Lucasfilm, resulting in a trilogy of films that go every possible direction they could go in, much to the detriment of the overall trilogy.
I think it's just a slicker, better, more exciting, more emotional, and funnier film. It's better directed and it has a better script.
I don't. What can I say? They don't get much time to really talk to each other, their dialogue is famously terrible... I'm not saying it's a bad film at all, it's clearly not. But TFA is just a better one.
Yep.
I love Cushing, but actors alone don't make a film.
Yes he does, it's in the film. He does it, and it's Ford at towards the end of his career rather than at the beginning before he'd got good, and he's amazing in it.
It's not, no. You're just trying to phrase it in the worst possible way you can think of, which is silly.
It's a film, it's just a film. It needs a baddie, and in a film like this you need the hero to face the grand evil wizard at the end.
I suspect the fanbase is probably divided over the original ones too.
Well I completely disagree with you on the Force Awakens. I just don’t see how it’s superior to A New Hope.
The dialog is clunky yes, but the performances are strong and charismatic enough to make it all work. Whereas the Sequel trilogy, you have a cast of characters than don’t seem to bounce off each other in the same way the original trio does.
You’re right that actors alone don’t make the film, but Cushing’s Tarkin was written to be this calm, cruel, and sadistic character. That’s why he has absolutely no issues with destroying Alderaan. Cushing’s presences elevates it entirely. He doesn’t need to be constantly shouting at the top of his lungs, unlike the Admirals/Generals seen in the First Order.
And yes, that literally describes Solo in TFA. They walked back on everything that made his character arc interesting in the original trilogy. I did a describe it in a very silly way, because the way he’s written is very silly and ridiculous. The man literally did walk away from Leia, and essentially left his family in crumbles, not even attempting to try and reach out to Ren until the very end. His character is essentially “back to square one” at the beginning, walking back on any real character development he had in the original trilogy. Thus as a result, his role as “Mentor” doesn’t feel convincing in the slightest. He isn’t the one responsible to setting Rey on the path towards the Jedi, which is the role the mentor should have in these films. He isn’t the one who teaches Rey the morals of what’s right, and what’s wrong, because he’s back to his old habits of smuggling. He just essentially guides the characters to the resistance, and then gets killed off by his own son. I know I’m going simplifying his role in TFA, but it’s literally the way he’s presented in that film. It’s a simple characterization that plays on how he was initially present in ANH, as if to ignore everything else that came afterwards, as if to ignore the heroic deeds he did have in the original trilogy. I agree Ford is great as an actor in TFA, but his character was just poorly written.
As for TROS, your absolutely correct in that they needed the big baddie at the end, which was why it was entirely stupid that Disney and Lucasfilm let Rian Johnson kill off Snoke, without stepping in and saying that Johnson was going too far. Snoke should’ve been the main bad guy in TROS. They set him up perfectly. With Palpatine’s return, the result is essentially the same as the Blofeld angle in SPECTRE; “I am responsible for what happened before; it was all part of my plan”, and it produces results that are similar to Blofeld in SPECTRE; just awful and unconvincing.
The fanbase was divided over ROTJ but that’s it, and it wasn’t to the extent that the future films would divide audiences. All the audiences back then didn’t like was the Ewoks.
Snoke was definitely not set up perfectly. We didn't know anything about him, ever; he wasn't intriguing at all.
I agree with you about Cushing; certainly head and shoulders above a character like Hux, despite my high regard for the actor.
I think you're making a lot of assumptions about Solo regarding things that aren't shown on screen. I didn't have nearly the trouble with his characterization in TFA as you seemed to have.
Your comments about "the fanbase is divided" is all just vapour; it isn't really measurable, the "fanbase" is usually just a loud, whiny minority, and people are divided by absolutely everything. Yes, many people were unhappy with TLJ / ROS / The Sequels, but many people were unhappy with the prequels which are going through a nice renaissance, and I bet lots of people were unhappy with ANH / ESB as well. That's opinions for you!
Ultimately it's interesting to compare ANH and TFA; of course ANH will be held in extremely high regard, and rightfully so; for it's time it was a masterpiece, and it largely holds up. But Hamill is no Brando, for sure, and the chemistry between Poe and Finn in the beginning of TFA was absolutely brilliant and captivating. Of course the effects were better in TFA as technology had vastly improved, but a large draw for Star Wars is the technology and practical effects, and so TFA should be praised on those merits as well.
I understand Lucas shoehorned the Death Star into ANH because he thought it'd be the only Star Wars film he got to make, but it felt a lot more organic than Starkiller Base in TFA, which absolutely felt shoved in because TFA needed it's "Death Star", when it really didn't.
I heard it was because the character was getting popular and Lucas didn't want him to overshadow the important characters, so he off'd him?
I think Snoke was set up perfectly though. His appearance as this giant, hologram thats nearly the size of the screen was intriguing. I thought he had a better set up than the Emperor did in the original films. I was intrigued to see what they were going to do with his character next.
I’m not making any assumptions about Solo, it’s all information we are fed within the film. We’re presented to him as a smuggler back up to his old, usual tricks then find out everything that happened to caused him to leave the alliance and distance himself from Leia, which was the fall of Kylo Ren to the dark side. It’s all in the film.
I also think my “fanbase divided” comments were spot on. I can remember the split back when TFA came out, and the fans who were complaining about the issues of TFA. And honestly, do you really think that ANH/ESB were as controversial as the other films? Those two films are at the top of everyone’s list when it comes to the best of the series, if anything the controversy surrounds ROTJ, not the first two films.
Of course Mark Hamil isn’t on the level on Marlon Brando, I never tried to imply otherwise, but Hamil at least gives what I think are better performances than the 3 main leads in the sequels.
Yes, the special effects are better in the Force Awakens than they are in the originals, but good special effects a good film does not make. The prequels proved that.
The best I could possibly describe TFA is a big, helping of Nostalgia that largely plays it safe, adding little, to nothing to the series. It’s a competent film, I’ll give it that, but I’m not nearly as impressed as others are with the film. In fact TFA, and by extension the rest of the Sequels feel like an unnecessary add on to the saga. Why undo the perfect ending of ROTJ? It’s another issue I have with the EU as well, only the EU could easily be disregarded because they weren’t filmed, nor meant to officially continue the story. Where as the sequels feel like “Oh you thought everything was over? You thought the heroic sacrifice of Vader saved the galaxy? Well guess what, your wrong” and it leaves just a bad taste in my mouth.
There’s that too, it was appalling the way they treated him, but hey, at least Disney officially brought him back for Mando.
Let's all enjoy some pleasant banter from two great parts of Modern Star Wars:
No I get that, and I hope I wasn’t sounding like I was trying to enforce my opinion as the correct opinion. I mean I for one am an unabashed Prequel fan. Revenge of the Sith is my 4th favorite film in the saga, but I know how flawed the prequels are. I still love them, and your definitely right about the future reception of the sequels, I’m sure time will be much kinder to the sequels, and I hope for that. It just find it difficult to bring myself to enjoy those films, considering I hold the Original Trilogy so near, and dear to my heart. That’s why of all the Disney Star Wars films, I love Rogue One. Rogue One for me was the best of the Disney era of Star Wars, I loved how it fit within the timeline, and I love the stakes of that film. I’m glad that there are people who enjoy TFA, and even the other sequels for what they are, because I know that a lot of the online rhetoric has been unbearable to listen too, and that’s the issue with groups like “The Fandom Menace”, because of how loud and annoying their complaints have been, they’ve made it harder to approach these films from a standpoint of pure criticism, and not criticism enforced by Misogynistic/Jealous views. I’ll admit, that I should go back and give the sequels another chance, I’ve only watched each sequel film once, then haven’t felt inclined to go back and revisit them. And my criticism of Solo comes from a place of love, I loved Han Solo in the original trilogy, he was my favorite character, and I think Harrison Ford was just phenomenal. I just felt they did him kind of dirty in TFA, that’s all. That’s not a dig against Ford’s performance, I remember being visibly upset when they killed him off. It was a powerful and gut wrenching scene. But I’m sure I will learn to appreciate the sequels for what they are. I don’t think they’re bad films, I was just disappointed by them. But as you say, it’s just opinions really.
I say let’s move on to a subject I’d love to get people’s opinions on; who else loves 2003 Clone Wars???
I too love Revenge of the Sith. And now that The Mandalorian is out and is as good as it is, I'm sort of happy to ignore the sequel films (despite enjoying parts of them) and letting The Mandalorian cap off the saga for me. I think it's fitting to have it all end with The Child, depending on how it's done.
Never saw Clone Wars but I want to check it out for sure, heard amazing things.
I highly recommend it. It’s from Genndy Tartakovsky, and it’s animation style is superb. I always watch it in between Episodes 2 and 3, and I prefer it over the 3D Clone Wars, but that’s just my preference. It’s probably my favorite Star Wars related media as well, and that includes the films. It’s just so good.
I think it's a real pity that Lawrence Kasdan turned down writing the prequels, because he could have been a big help in finessing all the story ideas Lucas had. If the prequels had anything, they had ideas, but unfortunately the ideas never actually fleshed out into stories. I can't tell you WHY Padme fell in love with Anakin in AOTC. It just happens because it needs to in order to lead up to ROTS with the birth of the twins.
I’ll agree that the story progression in the prequels feels a bit too convenient. I think Lucas just made the mistake of brain storming, developing, and polishing the scripts himself, when he could’ve used Kasdan’s input. But for me I personally enjoyed the prequels, I suppose I have heavy nostalgia for them, but I’m not going to admit that they aren’t filled to the brim with flaws. For me, I can simply turn off my brain and enjoy them for what they are.
Oh and Padme fell in love with Anakin because they shared an intense hatred of Sand.
Empire was both a blessing and a curse. The film suddenly propelled the series to the level of a "serious" and operatic space fantasy, reaching unprecedented dramatic and technical heights. The cute B-movie had now spawned a grand, A-level epic. The bar was raised... but probably above the comfort zone of the actual DNA of SW. And thus, every single film since released has had both ardent fans and angry detractors, starting with Jedi's "kidified" version of Han Solo, the Ewoks and -- wait -- Leia is Luke's sister, really?, and moving on to Jar Jar, teen Anakin facing sand issues, and more. The prequels were shunned by some, embraced by others. The sequels were too, as was everything in between.
The point is, the SW universe is big, it's massive, it's got something for all of us, something we all embrace, whether it's the darker themes or just the escapist fun factor. That's why debates such as those of the last couple of pages are pointless. Reduced to its barest essentials, SW is good, easily digestible nonsense. Plot holes, "this makes no sense" moments, missed opportunities... are almost inevitable. We've all got our focus points; what some will gladly overlook, others pay extra attention to; what some want more of, others are happy to leave behind. To borrow from Obi-Wan: no-one in these discussions has the "high-ground". ;-) Remember also that we have tons of video games, EU novels, comics and more, and they can make a difference. The EU novels made me a reborn fan of the prequel trilogy, for example, seeing ideas come to life that aid tremendously in figuring out what Lucas wanted me to see. The Clone Wars (3D) TV series made me like Jedi Skywalker so much more, as well as Dooku, Ventress and others. The comics have helped as well. But a friend of mine is all about KOTOR, and how that game inspired his SW fandom and whatnot. We all work from different angles, from different darlings and from different expectations. SW is too big for one straight avenue; it's like a menu in a restaurant: you pick what you like, and I'll make my own choice thank you very much.
Roll with it, that's the motto. Just roll with it. Or don't. I'm not saying you have to be happy with what they feed you, I'm saying what doesn't make you happy will appeal to someone else, and vice versa. Complain all you want: since Empire came out, SW has left that safe-zone where it can please pretty much everyone. Whatever direction taken next, it will always be greeted with thumbs-up and thumbs-down. Films that were "trashed" upon release (e.g. Ep. I, Ep. II) resurface many years later as guilty fan pleasures. Films that shattered BO records (e.g. Ep. VII) are critically re-evaluated a few years later as not being all that good considering what came after, and so on.
And directors? Come one, people. George Lucas is Mister Star Wars, and we owe it all to him. He's also Mister Big Ideas. He's also a fine director -- THX-1138, American Grafitti, ... -- but others have done a better job directing his or other SW material, yes. That doesn't make him a total hack or a bad craftsman, though. His SW films were projects, trying for cutting-edge, family-friendly entertainment, much more than for Oscar-winning drama. He isn't a Stanley Kubrick, but his heart was always in it. Lucas never truly wanted to go dark with SW; he wanted kids to have a good time. Still, Abrams, Johnson, Edwards, Marquand, ... all brought something to the series. But in the end, it's not fair to apply auteur theory to these films. SW doesn't allow that. Again, it's a huge universe, getting a film made that enough of us like is hard enough as it is. Blame the director, producers, writers, ... all you want. If the latest film doesn't work, it's because it doesn't work for you, but it will work for others. A friend and I both agreed after the premiere of TROS that it was fan service upon fan service, dropping story arcs that were set-up with promise in the previous films while drawing out others that could've been cut a bit shorter. But, the geeks in us had had a great time, seeing all that big, loud, "oh, look who's back! Cool!" stuff play out. If this had been Nolan's sequel to Interstellar, we would have screamed bloody murder. But it's SW, it's a bag of potatoes crisps, it's candy, nothing more, nothing less. As long as SW can get us that sugar rush, hell yeah!
The biggest mistake to make is to overthink SW.