Star Wars (1977 - present)

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited January 2021 Posts: 8,183
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Can’t agree with much of that. For example, killing Snoke made absolute sense for the Kylo Ren’s story in TLJ because he’s someone that not only aspired to be like Vader but also surpass him. Killing his master and taking his throne felt like the most logical step after the events of TFA and actually gave IX an opportunity to go for something new, with Kylo Ren being the big bad instead of someone over him. Instead it went the lazy route of bringing back Palpatine because of a lack of imagination. That’s all on Abrams wanting to repeat the beats of ROTJ. I think Johnson overall did the best he could moving the story forward after what TFA presented. It’s just unfortunate that Abrams himself wasn’t imaginative enough to give it a landing.

    Anyway, I think this video makes a good case for why TLJ is good, and gets into the division among fans.


    Problem with killing off snoke is that you have lost a major antagonist. It would be like darth Vader force choking the emperors hologram in Empire. We know nothing of him, or what his plans are, or why he exists in relation to the story other than he is bad.

    That for me is bad storytelling.

    Killing Snoke MAKES Kylo Ren the major antagonist, and that puts IX in a position that is unique from ROTJ where Kylo Ren is the top dog rather than a subservient. How is that bad storytelling? Is it just because it's setting up a different dynamic from the formula of the OT that makes it bad?
    Finn could be taken out of the film and it would have zero consequence on the story

    Except you would effectively deny the character his story by cutting him out. But if you don't care for Finn and him coming around on becoming a part of the resistance and how his arc thematically mirrors Luke's, then I can see your point.
    Also like milking the space cow tits could have been left in the cutting room floor.

    But they're so delicious. ;)

    517.gif
    Not knowing enough about characters is Iess engaging.

    Vader was Obi wants best friend, but was seduced by the dark side. We know that from one tiny scene that explains context, relationship. We learn more about star wars universe in that one scene in Obi wans house than we do in the whole of the last Jedi

    Then it just sounds like you didn't even pay attention to TLJ. Hell, Poe and Finn get a lot more character development in that film than they ever did in the very previous film that introduced them.
    I think that’s a major flaw in the prequels. It’s a different bad guy in each one. Darth maul, count dooku, general grievous. We know nothing of these people so it’s just rent a baddie.

    I do think there was one too many, but the flaws of the prequels isn't that we don't know the backstory of Darth Maul. When ROTJ came out we didn't really know much about Palpatine beyond the fact that he turned Anakin to the dark side, and the film is perfectly fine as it is.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Interesting points. I do like the character of Finn. But his story arc is none existent.

    Luke: idealistic farm boy who yearns for adventure. We learn he has a dark family history. His family are murdered and he learns about the force from a mysterious knight who once knew his father, of whom he knows nothing. He ultimately rescues a princess, joins a rebellion, and destroys their base. Then seeks out a Jedi master, trains and ultimate confronts the ultimate evil in the galaxy and learns a terrible secret in the process. He sacrifices himself to avoid joining him but is rescued. Then he accepts his responsibility, confronts his father and during a moment of rage beats him. But he resists going down the dark path as his father did. His father then overthrows the emperor to save his son in one last act of kindness redeeming his character and brining an end to a beautiful 3 film story arc.

    Finn:
    Was really well set up in the Force awakens. But then just went to space Vegas, got arrested for double parking and flew about the galaxy. Oh and he road a space horse on a star destroyer. That’s pretty much it.

    Even John boyega agrees

    https://collider.com/john-boyega-reacts-star-wars-trilogy/amp/
  • Posts: 1,165
    I understand narratively that the ST needed to move past the older characters to focus on the new characters but I hated how they killed off one former main character in each of the new movies.
    TFA - Let’s kill Han
    TLJ - Let’s kill Luke
    TROS - Let’s kill Leia

    It was like some odd fetish.
  • Matt007 wrote: »
    Interesting points. I do like the character of Finn. But his story arc is none existent.

    Luke: idealistic farm boy who yearns for adventure. We learn he has a dark family history. His family are murdered and he learns about the force from a mysterious knight who once knew his father, of whom he knows nothing. He ultimately rescues a princess, joins a rebellion, and destroys their base. Then seeks out a Jedi master, trains and ultimate confronts the ultimate evil in the galaxy and learns a terrible secret in the process. He sacrifices himself to avoid joining him but is rescued. Then he accepts his responsibility, confronts his father and during a moment of rage beats him. But he resists going down the dark path as his father did. His father then overthrows the emperor to save his son in one last act of kindness redeeming his character and brining an end to a beautiful 3 film story arc.

    Finn:
    Was really well set up in the Force awakens. But then just went to space Vegas, got arrested for double parking and flew about the galaxy. Oh and he road a space horse on a star destroyer. That’s pretty much it.

    Even John boyega agrees

    https://collider.com/john-boyega-reacts-star-wars-trilogy/amp/

    I think this is largely due to them making it up as they went along rather than having an outline for the arc of the trilogy from the outset - it's why Rey's arc is also all over the map.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Interesting points. I do like the character of Finn. But his story arc is none existent.

    Only if you weren't paying attention.

    But I can concede that he was short changed in TROS.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    TR007 wrote: »
    I understand narratively that the ST needed to move past the older characters to focus on the new characters but I hated how they killed off one former main character in each of the new movies.
    TFA - Let’s kill Han
    TLJ - Let’s kill Luke
    TROS - Let’s kill Leia

    It was like some odd fetish.

    That was the plan all along, I believe. The three big ones were coming back but one would die each time.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Problem with killing off snoke is that you have lost a major antagonist. It would be like darth Vader force choking the emperors hologram in Empire. We know nothing of him, or what his plans are, or why he exists in relation to the story other than he is bad.

    That for me is bad storytelling.

    What exactly did we know about the Emperor in ROTJ? He was in control of the Empire and Vader answered to him up until Luke's life was in danger. Then he got chucked down a shaft that for no reason led directly to the Death Star's reactor.

    What did we know about Snoke? He was in control of the First Order, personally turned Ben Solo to the dark side and made him Kylo Ren, who was his direct subordinate up until he gloated a bit too much about controlling everything and then Kylo killed him.

    People like to act as if there's some massive amount of difference here, but the only difference is that Palpatinr was later explored in three other movies, but in 1983, that was it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    TR007 wrote: »
    I understand narratively that the ST needed to move past the older characters to focus on the new characters but I hated how they killed off one former main character in each of the new movies.
    TFA - Let’s kill Han
    TLJ - Let’s kill Luke
    TROS - Let’s kill Leia

    It was like some odd fetish.

    That was the plan all along, I believe. The three big ones were coming back but one would die each time.

    If Fisher hadn't passed away, I'm not sure Leia would have died too.
    Problem with killing off snoke is that you have lost a major antagonist. It would be like darth Vader force choking the emperors hologram in Empire. We know nothing of him, or what his plans are, or why he exists in relation to the story other than he is bad.

    That for me is bad storytelling.

    What exactly did we know about the Emperor in ROTJ? He was in control of the Empire and Vader answered to him up until Luke's life was in danger. Then he got chucked down a shaft that for no reason led directly to the Death Star's reactor.

    What did we know about Snoke? He was in control of the First Order, personally turned Ben Solo to the dark side and made him Kylo Ren, who was his direct subordinate up until he gloated a bit too much about controlling everything and then Kylo killed him.

    People like to act as if there's some massive amount of difference here, but the only difference is that Palpatinr was later explored in three other movies, but in 1983, that was it.

    Bingo.

    But from what I remember there were a ton of fans back in 2015 cooking up theories about Snoke, and the fact that the ST never even bothered to give an elaborate detail of his background really upset people.

    I do wish TROS had never had that one shot of failed Snoke clones. That was the dumbest thing in the movie. "I made Snoke" was actually pretty sufficient in that you could interpret it as Snoke being another disciple of Palpatine secretly working for him. But whatever.
  • edited January 2021 Posts: 1,314
    Problem with killing off snoke is that you have lost a major antagonist. It would be like darth Vader force choking the emperors hologram in Empire. We know nothing of him, or what his plans are, or why he exists in relation to the story other than he is bad.

    That for me is bad storytelling.

    What exactly did we know about the Emperor in ROTJ? He was in control of the Empire and Vader answered to him up until Luke's life was in danger. Then he got chucked down a shaft that for no reason led directly to the Death Star's reactor.

    What did we know about Snoke? He was in control of the First Order, personally turned Ben Solo to the dark side and made him Kylo Ren, who was his direct subordinate up until he gloated a bit too much about controlling everything and then Kylo killed him.

    People like to act as if there's some massive amount of difference here, but the only difference is that Palpatinr was later explored in three other movies, but in 1983, that was it.

    Erm - we witnessed darth Vaders conflict where he showed the first piece of vulnerability due to his need to obey the emperor on Endor. He betrayed his sons invitation to leave to take him to the Death Star

    The emperor may have been mysterious but he drove a lot of the narrative.

    And he wasn’t just thrown down a random shaft. He was torturing and killing the main protagonist in front of his father, which ultimately led to his redemption. This was crucial to the entire arc of the original trilogy.

    That’s just for starters. I’d like to see anything In snokes story that lives up to that.

  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    He wasn't supposed to live up to that, that's the point. He was supposed to be a stepping stone to Kylo taking charge.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Things that didn't make sense to me in the SW movies:

    Phantom Menace: Jar Jar's accent. 3PO's origin.
    Attack Of The Clones: Once Anakin was getting powerful, why didn't he just free his Mom by force before she got killed?
    Revenge Of The Sith: Why all the flipping in air?
    New Hope: Why didn't Leia's buns come undone in the garbage masher?
    Empire Strikes Back: How come short range fighters like an X-Wing are suddenly FTL?
    Return Of The Jedi: "Fly casual." WTH? ;)
    The Force Awakens: Most of the film...
    The Last Jedi: All of the film.
    The Rise Of Skywalker: 101% of the film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2021 Posts: 16,383
    I totally respect the story beats that TLJ was trying to tell, but ultimately I just found the execution charmless and rather dull. And a Star Wars film set mostly on an empty island or a ship stuck in space isn't the scale I'm hoping for from a Star Wars film.
    I thought all of the characters had lost the charm and appeal they had in the previous movie, the jokes felt laboured and not really very funny, and Mark Hamill is no replacement for Harrison Ford.

    On paper I can totally see why TLJ is telling an interesting and original story, but I just didn't enjoy watching it.
    TRoS isn't as original but it's more fun and more exciting. TFA is great stuff.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Yeah I find TLJ rather dull and unengaging, too. I admire the ideas but I've only seen it fully through from beginning to end twice, and the second time was a chore. I've often watched scenes from it on Youtube, though.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2021 Posts: 16,383
    Yes I remember when it popped up on Now TV and I thought I'd give it another go because, although I certainly didn't love it at the cinema, I thought "it's a Star wars film and they're always watchable even when they're not great" but I was surprised when I stopped it halfway through because I was actually finding it boring. There's an odd feeling to it like it's challenging you to not enjoy it, if that doesn't sound strange.

    I've actually just this minute finished watching Rise of Skywalker again. It's a bit lightweight and doesn't really get you fired up like the top tier SW films do, but it yomps along and there's lots of adventure and daring do and spaceships and blasters, and it hits all of the things a SW film should do and it's well-paced: it's a Star Wars film. It's like a big cartoon, and I can't really understand being a Star Wars fan and not enjoying it: it is Star Wars.

    It's also possibly the most gorgeous to look at- the photography in it is brilliant all the way through.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I can understand if you feel bored from it. I have friends that rank ANH and TESB low because they they they’re “slow and boring”, and TLJ isn’t rated too far away from those.

    Given those three consist of my top three, I guess I just like my Star Wars slow and boring.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    I guess I just like my Star Wars slow and boring.

    Obi-wan once thought as you did.
    (just kidding)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2021 Posts: 16,383
    I think I've always put the first '77 one towards the bottom of the pile, not because it's bad but because, like Dr No, it was just improved upon by its sequels. I'm surprised to hear they think of Empire as slow as I always thought that keeps the pace up, even despite the swamp bits. I think the spooky atmosphere carries the film through the film having to stop for a bit there, plus obviously it's intercutting with Han and Leia lots.
    In terms of the first three it's Empire, Jedi, Star Wars in that order for me, which I don't think is massively controversial.

    ANH is a very important film, and TFA was basically a remake, but purely as a movie experience and not based on cultural importance, I'd say TFA is the better film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Ehhhhhhhhh
  • mtm wrote: »
    I think I've always put the first '77 one towards the bottom of the pile, not because it's bad but because, like Dr No, it was just improved upon by its sequels. I'm surprised to hear they think of Empire as slow as I always thought that keeps the pace up, even despite the swamp bits. I think the spooky atmosphere carries the film through the film having to stop for a bit there, plus obviously it's intercutting with Han and Leia lots.
    In terms of the first three it's Empire, Jedi, Star Wars in that order for me, which I don't think is massively controversial.

    ANH is a very important film, and TFA was basically a remake, but purely as a movie experience and not based on cultural importance, I'd say TFA is the better film.

    I agree that ANH was vastly improved upon by the following 2 entries. My absolute favorite of those first 3 is Jedi, which I think gets some unnecessary flack from the fan base for some of the decisions made in that film. Empire comes in at close second for me, followed by ANH. But when taking into account all the films, I actually place ANH at #4, behind the 2003 Clone Wars, which I count as one film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Mannnn, I just don’t get how ANH can be seen as anything other than top two SW films.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I can understand if you feel bored from it. I have friends that rank ANH and TESB low because they they they’re “slow and boring”, and TLJ isn’t rated too far away from those.

    Given those three consist of my top three, I guess I just like my Star Wars slow and boring.

    Yeah, funnily enough I have no issue with those other two films in the engagement department!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2021 Posts: 16,383
    mtm wrote: »
    I think I've always put the first '77 one towards the bottom of the pile, not because it's bad but because, like Dr No, it was just improved upon by its sequels. I'm surprised to hear they think of Empire as slow as I always thought that keeps the pace up, even despite the swamp bits. I think the spooky atmosphere carries the film through the film having to stop for a bit there, plus obviously it's intercutting with Han and Leia lots.
    In terms of the first three it's Empire, Jedi, Star Wars in that order for me, which I don't think is massively controversial.

    ANH is a very important film, and TFA was basically a remake, but purely as a movie experience and not based on cultural importance, I'd say TFA is the better film.

    I agree that ANH was vastly improved upon by the following 2 entries. My absolute favorite of those first 3 is Jedi, which I think gets some unnecessary flack from the fan base for some of the decisions made in that film. Empire comes in at close second for me, followed by ANH. But when taking into account all the films, I actually place ANH at #4, behind the 2003 Clone Wars, which I count as one film.

    Seems reasonable. I lived through the whole period of 'Return of the Jedi is the worst film EVAH' silliness, and it's just not; it's good fun.
    Mannnn, I just don’t get how ANH can be seen as anything other than top two SW films.

    It's quite clunky compared to the others: Empire is so much slicker. Effects, production, direction and even the script has stepped up a bit by the time they get to the next ones. Plus it's a bit small scale, they only really have one quick adventure on the Death Star and that's about it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited January 2021 Posts: 8,183
    The first third and last third are great stuff in ROTJ. It’s everything in that middle third that brings the whole film down, aside from maybe the speeder chase. All the stuff with Ewoks thinking 3PO is a god and such... zzzzZZZZzzzzz
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    The first third and last third are great stuff in ROTJ. It’s everything in that middle third that brings the whole film down, aside from maybe the speeder chase. All the stuff with Ewoks thinking 3PO is a god and such... zzzzZZZZzzzzz

    That's interesting, I'd have said it's the beginning which is the slightly slower act, as there's quite a bit of standing around in Jabba's palace for a while. But it's a very entertaining film.

    I always find it surprising how much more 80s it feels than the others, even though we're in a a galaxy far far away!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Return of The Jedi gets the VERY same raw deal that License To Kill does. Both EXCELLENT films that people need for whatever reason to piss on. Pardon me please if I love them both. ;)
  • I always think ROTJ was the first indication of how fans were going to react to the upcoming films. It seemed like it continued to spiral out of control after that film. I chalk up ROTJ’s criticisms to people expecting for the series to go darker after Empire.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2021 Posts: 17,795
    I always think ROTJ was the first indication of how fans were going to react to the upcoming films. It seemed like it continued to spiral out of control after that film. I chalk up ROTJ’s criticisms to people expecting for the series to go darker after Empire.

    Maybe not darker, but at least as serious in overall tone. Ewoks messed up that expectation. Not for ME though....
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    I always think ROTJ was the first indication of how fans were going to react to the upcoming films. It seemed like it continued to spiral out of control after that film. I chalk up ROTJ’s criticisms to people expecting for the series to go darker after Empire.

    Maybe not darker, but at least as serious in overall tone. Ewoks messed up that expectation. Not for ME though....

    Not for me either. The Ewoks were one of my favorite elements of the film. Especially how they were introduced
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    There's possibly a heavy bias against Ewoks because of the rumors that Lucas wanted them to be Wookiees on Kashyyk and ran out of money (or something)? I feel like there was a time when I thought this and it tainted my view of Ewoks, but looking back, they actually weren't that bad at all.
  • There's possibly a heavy bias against Ewoks because of the rumors that Lucas wanted them to be Wookiees on Kashyyk and ran out of money (or something)? I feel like there was a time when I thought this and it tainted my view of Ewoks, but looking back, they actually weren't that bad at all.

    Ran out of money, or let that concept be ruined by the godawful Holiday Special
    ;)
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