Star Wars (1977 - present)

MakeshiftPython

I do think it is hilarious that conservative dorks are referring to Carano's character as the only female badass in the show... when there's two other female badasses. Katee Sackhoff not only has been playing sci-fi badass women for nearly 20 years, but she can actually, you know, act.

I do feel a bit bad for Carano. She's gone from Star Wars to Ben Shapiro. That's as sad as it gets.

CraigMooreOHMSS

NickTwentyTwo wrote: »

Well, children in cages is a good comparison for children in cages.

People being upset at loud right wing people is not a good comparison for the jews being hunted and cooked alive by the Nazis.

I still see no problem with Gina being fired and Pedro not. And it isn't a matter of political leaning. If I posted on my instagram that I was upset because "people getting mad at me is what it must have felt like to be a jewish person in 1930's Germany!!", I'd fully expect to get fired from my shitty restaurant job. If I posted on my instagram that "children in cages is a lot like children in cages!" I'd probably not expect to get fired from my shitty restaurant job.

I'd fully expect you to, as well!

FatherValentine

I agree the the two tweets are different. However, Pascal's Tweet was crass, surely. And whether it trivialises the holocaust or not is just down to perspective and a matter of opinion.

That Disney allowed that and not Carano opens them up to accusations of hypocrisy.

Regardless, what isn't a false equivalence is the comparison between a million Uighurs being kept in 're-education' camps and subject to forced sterilisation, and the holocaust. Disney has absolutely no moral high ground on this issue whatsoever.

MakeshiftPython

Whether Disney is guilty of hypocrisy or not is irrelevant. I wouldn’t want a loose canon like Carano employed either.

Matt007

Back on topic. I’ve been watching a lot of star wars recently. I can’t help but think there is real depth to be added to the franchise by focussing on Lucass thinly drawn back story to the prequels. I would like to know more about darth plagueis, Sifo dyas and the order img of the clone army, and the prophesy of the one who will bring balance etc etc. Far more than some series about a forgettable guy from Rogue One

I really like the way the Mandolorian has dealt with the empire in a post Jedi context. It bridges the gap and might help explain why the first order and snoke came to prominence.

Hope they delve deeper into explaining the confusing and wafer thin plot points which were only hinted at

MakeshiftPython

I always took Darth Plagueis to be entirely made up by Palpatine. He’s a liar and a manipulator.

NickTwentyTwo

I thought Plagueis was confirmed to be a real character, and Sidious’ master? But I don’t really know much on the subject. Sifo Dyas was a character I didn’t know about at all until my recent marathon and does seem intriguing. A part of me likes to believe that Dyas was count Dooku before he became a Sith, but that doesn’t really hold up when you watch the films. A cool idea I think though.

DarthDimi

Well, the book Darth Plagueis makes it explicit that he is the real deal and not made up by Palpatine. I read the book about two years ago and sort of imagined him being Snoke, only because of the cover art:



Don't worry. He isn't. ;-)

NickTwentyTwo

I believe he’s the same race as the banker guild agent from Attack of the Clones?
Google search ‘banker guild star wars’ and you’ll see.

Agent007391

NickTwentyTwo wrote: »

I believe he’s the same race as the banker guild agent from Attack of the Clones?
Google search ‘banker guild star wars’ and you’ll see.

They're called Muuns.

DarthDimi

He is, according to Luceno's book.

MakeshiftPython

I’ve heard of the book. I don’t care for EU.

NickTwentyTwo

MakeshiftPython wrote: »

I’ve heard of the book. I don’t care for EU.

I'm vaguely interested sometimes, but have engaged extremely little with any of it. I have a graphic novel collection of some Boba Fett stories, but that's it.

CraigMooreOHMSS

I suppose with the way the film series has jettisoned most of the EU content, you could easily interpret the Plagueis myth as being just that: a myth.

Considering Palpatine's penchant for manipulation, it makes plenty of sense.

NickTwentyTwo

CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »

I suppose with the way the film series has jettisoned most of the EU content, you could easily interpret the Plagueis myth as being just that: a myth.

Considering Palpatine's penchant for manipulation, it makes plenty of sense.

Very true. It’s possible Lucas intended Plagueis to not really exist, and some author wrote a book about him anyways. Any interpretation of this stuff is just as valid as the next I’d say.

MakeshiftPython

That's kind of why I like not quite knowing the whole story of Palpatine, you can never be sure to the extent of how much he's lying or telling the truth. He'll only say something if it suits the moment. The first time he asks Anakin to join him he frames things as if he already knows the secret powers that can save Padme's life. However, later in the movie he shifts goal posts and tells Anakin that they'll have to discover that power together down the road (though it makes you wonder why Anakin didn't call him out on that).

HASEROT

MakeshiftPython wrote: »

That's kind of why I like not quite knowing the whole story of Palpatine, you can never be sure to the extent of how much he's lying or telling the truth. He'll only say something if it suits the moment. The first time he asks Anakin to join him he frames things as if he already knows the secret powers that can save Padme's life. However, later in the movie he shifts goal posts and tells Anakin that they'll have to discover that power together down the road (though it makes you wonder why Anakin didn't call him out on that).

oh thats simple, Lucas' writing :)) im not going to crap on ROTS, because out of the prequels i think its easily the best.. but at the same time, i do think the Vader turn is rather abrupt - i know he sprinkled in the hints throughout the three films - and i like the doubts and questioning of the Jedi methods in EpIII.. but after Windu is killed, and he goes "what have I done" - it's like a hard right turn into being evil and wanting to kill all the Jedi.. i really wish they would've stretched that out a bit, show him struggle with the notion of does he turn himself in, or does he follow Palpatine after he realizes there is nowhere left for him to turn?..

the cheating death thing seems like a cheap ploy thrown in in order to give Anakin his reason for turning - but literally, if they just took out the line Palpatine says "unfortunately he taught his apprentice everything he knew." - it would create a little more ambiguity if he did in fact know the secret or not... i think now, because of TROS, it's apparent he did know.

MakeshiftPython

It feels cheap because it was part of the reshoots/rewrites. Originally the film wasn’t going to have Anakin fearing Padme’s death. It was added on because Lucas realized that Anakin’s turn wasn’t strong enough and needed to give him a motivation to join Palpatine.

This is why I don’t really give the sequels a hard time for not having a solid plan, because Lucas never did with his films either. It’s pretty well documented that he did things on the fly and his attitude was always “we’ll fix it in post” which is why he kept tinkering with the films years after they were released. All the hype of Lucas having a grand vision and a fully laid out story is just a myth that Lucas puts out and the fans eat up.

NickTwentyTwo

MakeshiftPython wrote: »

It feels cheap because it was part of the reshoots/rewrites. Originally the film wasn’t going to have Anakin fearing Padme’s death. It was added on because Lucas realized that Anakin’s turn wasn’t strong enough and needed to give him a motivation to join Palpatine.

This is why I don’t really give the sequels a hard time for not having a solid plan, because Lucas never did with his films either. It’s pretty well documented that he did things on the fly and his attitude was always “we’ll fix it in post” which is why he kept tinkering with the films years after they were released. All the hype of Lucas having a grand vision and a fully laid out story is just a myth that Lucas puts out and the fans eat up.

Really? It feels like they were building up Anakin's attachment to Padme and that being the reason for his turn for all three films. If it weren't going to be about Anakin fearing Padme's death, it seems like there would have been a ton going on for nothing.

MakeshiftPython

I think losing his mother was what was originally supposed to set him down the dark path, as that’s what’s clearly set up in TPM. It’s consistent with what Yoda said in both ROTJ and that film, that once you give into anger you’ve slipped down the dark path and it dominates your destiny. So by the end of AOTC Anakin isn’t a Sith but he’s already lost his way.

Lucas then regretted that he never showed Anakin being more heroic and friendlier with Obi-Wan. They argue so much in that film you never really get the sense they’re that good of friends. So the beginning of ROTS is supposed to show us the heroic side of Anakin as well as having a better interaction with Obi-Wan where they keep referring to each other as “good friend” and such.

NickTwentyTwo

MakeshiftPython wrote: »

I think losing his mother was what was originally supposed to set him down the dark path, as that’s what’s clearly set up in TPM. It’s consistent with what Yoda said in both ROTJ and that film, that once you give into anger you’ve slipped down the dark path and it dominates your destiny. So by the end of AOTC Anakin isn’t a Sith but he’s already lost his way.

Lucas then regretted that he never showed Anakin being more heroic and friendlier with Obi-Wan. They argue so much in that film you never really get the sense they’re that good of friends. So the beginning of ROTS is supposed to show us the heroic side of Anakin as well as having a better interaction with Obi-Wan where they keep referring to each other as “good friend” and such.

Ah, makes sense.

HASEROT

i think both the prequels and sequels were misfires, with the exceptions.. i think ROTS is the strongest out of the prequels, and TFA (though a retread of ANH) is the strongest out of the sequels.. what i will give the PT over the ST though, is that at the very least you had one hand / voice steering the narrative.. for better or for worse, it came down to Lucas... had the ST stuck with JJ Abrams for all 3 films, i think they would've been much better - and not that they are poorly made films, it's just narratively they are so disjointed because of 3 separate writer/directors doing their own thing - at least to start before JJ had to be brought back to try and salvage the thing.

MaxCasino

https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-mena-massoud-ezra-bridger/

MakeshiftPython

I thought VII-VIII went by smoothly, but it was IX where it started to feel disjointed because Abrams was trying to undermine the point Johnson had set up. If the Trevorow script had stayed in place I think it would have felt like a more like a natural conclusion to VII and VIII. Alas, JJ and his indecisiveness...

NickTwentyTwo

Was it indecisiveness on JJs part though? TFA and TROS seem pretty connected. I agree throwing Rian into the mix did make it feel disjointed.

There were big time clues in TFA about Rey being a Palpatine. I called it after one viewing of TFA, something my very annoyed friends have not been allowed to forget.

HASEROT

MakeshiftPython wrote: »

I thought VII-VIII went by smoothly, but it was IX where it started to feel disjointed because Abrams was trying to undermine the point Johnson had set up. If the Trevorow script had stayed in place I think it would have felt like a more like a natural conclusion to VII and VIII. Alas, JJ and his indecisiveness...

i agree and disagree.. i dont mind the through-line between TFA and TLJ, but i can see where a lot of the stuff that JJ had setup, Rian just discarded flippantly.. in a lot of ways, TLJ felt like a conclusion to a trilogy, but with no real conclusion - if that makes sense..

the indecisiveness came from KK and LucasFilm - they had no real clear cut direction they wanted to go with for the trilogy, and i think thats obvious.. i think they had a very very vague set of parameters laid out, but then left it up to 3 separate voices to fill in the gaps on their own... maybe had JJ, Rian and Colin all sat down and hashed out what they wanted to do, and where they wanted to go with the story, it could've been tighter? possibly?.. but i dont really blame any of the guys brought in to direct.. JJ was brought in to get the fans excited again after the prequels - which he did.. Rian did his own thing, which in of itself was fine, but went against the grain of TFA in many respects.. and in response to overwhelming backlash from fans, KK and LucasFilm backpedaled and brought back JJ to finish the thing off, and in a way make a near 3 hour apology.. but in doing so, TROS felt completely muddled - it really came off as JJ showing you what he would've done with EpVIII, but shoehorning it all into EpIX - which is why we got Palpatine.. it was a desperation move.. i think JJ's ideas for Snoke were grander, but Rian knocked him off - so now what do you do?.. i think Palpatine would've worked better in the ST, had they set it up properly... you see maybe faint hints / easter eggs in EpVII, leading to the full on reveal in EpVIII, and then ultimately the final battle in EpIX.. personally i would've gone with the Snoke is really Darth Plagueis reveal, to really sort of bookend the entire saga.... but oh well lol..

now it's up to their EU to connect all the dots - which it shouldn't have to..

Matt007

I’m not one for the EU. The extended universe is a cop out when it comes to explaining the poor writing in the films. To me Star Wars is the films and tv shows. The extended universe shouldn’t need to exist to make those films make narrative sense.

Can you imagine watching a bond film and you needed to read a book and 20 comics to know what goldfingers motivation was

MakeshiftPython

What exactly did RJ discard flippantly that J.J. set up? Snoke? Killing Snoke was a way to allow Kylo Ren to rise up and become his own boss, which I thought was a great way of taking the series to a very different dynamic where there isn’t a puppet master behind the scenes for the finale. It also works because of his idolization of his grandfather, who wanted to overthrow Papatine and rule the galaxy. Kylo Ren wanted to finish what his grandfather started, and took the steps Vader never got to. Before the film came out, it was actually something I hoped to see happen because to me that felt like the next step for his character.

It’s kind of saddening that Abrams couldn’t possibly imagine a story where there wasn’t some overlord in the finale, so he had to pull Palpatine out of his ass (and claim he conceived Snoke, which is the dumbest goddamn thing in the ST). It’s like his brain is so ingrained in the OT formula. I barely gave TFA a pass for rehashing ANH because I at least wanted to give into the conceit that it was done to bring back the goodwill of audiences and that future installments would take more risky chances. But no, he just replays the beats of ROTJ, which effectively ends the sequel trilogy in a state that was no different from where the OT ended.

Matt007

Rian Johnson was so preoccupied with doing something different for the sake of it that it was at the expense of the narrative ImO

- Luke throwing away the lightsaber -
- Rey is no one then oh wait she’s a palpatine
- Leia can fly suddenly
- Finn would rather gamble than save the rebellion
- weird marvel style humour and momma jokes
- New force powers that basically make you omnipotent
- snoke - a character we know nothing about and care less about is killed before he makes any impression in the story
-
Stranger still this was all jettisoned in the next chapter

HASEROT

MakeshiftPython wrote: »

What exactly did RJ discard flippantly that J.J. set up? Snoke?

Snoke was one aspect yes.. because then why go through the trouble of setting up this mysterious being with very little knowledge about who he is, and what is his end game.. if Snoke was not meant to be at least a slightly bigger deal, then why put him there to begin with - why not just have it as Hux and Kylo running The First Order.. I get what you're saying about the big puppet master crutch thing - but at least do something with that.. to essentially just toss it away like it was meaningless is a disservice, to what should've been an interesting new character. Rian just pissed on that..

Poe and Finn essentially getting downgraded as characters into poor arcs, that really go nowhere in the case of Poe, and Finn who had zero arc.. two characters setup to be potentially something in TFA, are just regulated to undercard material..

I like Rian as a filmmaker, but I just think he got the double edge sword of trying to do something different in SW, but also taking a story someone else had started and essentially bleaching it to do his own thing.. it's not to say I dislike everything he did, as I'm probably one if the few that like the stuff with Luke and Rey..

I look forward to seeing what RJ can do on his own, with his own story and characters.. because I think he can make a fantastic trilogy, because he clearly understands the world and the lore.. it's just a stylistic clash between him and JJ and like I said earlier, lack of a clear direction from KK that really set up this whole ST to fail from the jump.