A View to a Kill Appreciation Thread- Anybody else want to drop out?

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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    by having Roger as the Actor to have done
    The most Bond films.

    Funny to think that once Bond 26 is made, Sir Rog and Connery will represent half the franchise (13 out of 26 films).
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    No, no, I think they were just slightly out of ideas, and wanted to keep Moore going for as long as possible. I know that The Living Daylights was written for Moore and tweaked for Dalton, so Moore's age obviously wasn't a problem for EON. IMO, AVTAK to TLD is the smoothest transition of Bond actors the franchise has ever seen.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Although, the writers do tend to write for the last actor, as it takes a while to
    see what works for the new guy. Many have commented on how LALD and
    TMWTGG were still being written with Connery in mind. It wasn't until TSWLM
    That they got Roger's take on 007.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Although, the writers do tend to write for the last actor, as it takes a while to
    see what works for the new guy. Many have commented on how LALD and
    TMWTGG were still being written with Connery in mind. It wasn't until TSWLM
    That they got Roger's take on 007.

    That's not the same thing. They made many creative choices to distinguish Moore from Connery, like how he smoked cigars instead of cigarettes.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    In my opinion is is pretty much the same thing, so I guess we'll just have to disagree
    On this point. :)
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    It very much depends on the director. Lazemby, Brosnan and Craig all started with another director and you can really see that their films had been something new that was different to the previous films in the franchise. Moore and Dalton started with the previous director respectively (hamilton and Glen). Therefore I think their transition of Bond actors was indeed quiet smooth. Different from Brosnan and Craig the gap between the Bond films was also very small (2 years compared to 4 and 6 years).
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081


    The best thing about A View To A Kill, IMO.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,110
    There is a lot I like about AVTAK.
    - Rog is a bit long in the teeth, granted. He's also not very wel stunt-doubled, also granted. But the man still gives it his all actingwise and I love the disgust he shows whenever Zorin pops up.
    - speaking of Zorin, great villain. With a great clan too: May Day, Scarpine, the mad doctor Mortimer and of course Jenny Flex.
    - May Day turning to the good is better handled here than Jaws in MR. When she blows up, that's actually a very chilling moment.
    - Pola Ivanova!
    - title song and soundtrack.
    - locations: Bond's only trip to the USSR when it still existed, Paris, the lovely Château de Chantilly and San Francisco.
    - excellent PTS! I also love that iceberg sub. And what's in it. Bond wears a lovely Seiko Quartz Chronograph too, and Mary Stavin isn't too bad of a companion either. The great Rog also managed to snatch some fine wodka and caviar out of Russia. Got to love that bon vivant !
    - everything in the château! Some true detective work too.
    - the Rolls!
    - Patrick Macnee.
    - the blimp.
    - the Golden Gate Bridge climax and the Eiffel Tower stunt.
    - etc.

    Stacey is a totally helpless in the elevator fire, the ensuing fire engine chase is embarassing and the fisticuffs with the guards in the château is poor too. Apart from those things, can't say I've got many complaints.
  • Posts: 7,414
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There is a lot I like about AVTAK.
    - Rog is a bit long in the teeth, granted. He's also not very wel stunt-doubled, also granted. But the man still gives it his all actingwise and I love the disgust he shows whenever Zorin pops up.
    - speaking of Zorin, great villain. With a great clan too: May Day, Scarpine, the mad doctor Mortimer and of course Jenny Flex.
    - May Day turning to the good is better handled here than Jaws in MR. When she blows up, that's actually a very chilling moment.
    - Pola Ivanova!
    - title song and soundtrack.
    - locations: Bond's only trip to the USSR when it still existed, Paris, the lovely Château de Chantilly and San Francisco.
    - excellent PTS! I also love that iceberg sub. And what's in it. Bond wears a lovely Seiko Quartz Chronograph too, and Mary Stavin isn't too bad of a companion either. The great Rog also managed to snatch some fine wodka and caviar out of Russia. Got to love that bon vivant !
    - everything in the château! Some true detective work too.
    - the Rolls!
    - Patrick Macnee.
    - the blimp.
    - the Golden Gate Bridge climax and the Eiffel Tower stunt.
    - etc.

    Stacey is a totally helpless in the elevator fire, the ensuing fire engine chase is embarassing and the fisticuffs with the guards in the château is poor too. Apart from those things, can't say I've got many complaints.

    I think the steeplechase scene is very well done. Bond gets bashed about a good bit, and something we haven't seen before. Its such a pity the fire engine chase is played for laughs. Could heve been a great sequence but is really cringey to watch! Climax on the bridge is excellent!
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Have read the whole thread, but my favourite bit of AVTAK is the music when he rescues Stacey from City Hall. I also like very much how heroic he is by going after the airship. There's only one way to do it and that's by hanging on the mooring rope, but he goes for it anyway. Extremely gallant stuff given he does it just to rescue Stacey (again). It's not as if Zorin could have got very far in a slow moving airship with his name plastered all over it.

    On the whole I think its one of the most entertaining. Any criticisms of it also tend to be valid, however.

    Watched Octopussy last night, and Moore was still great in that imo. The way he wins at backgammon is cool as ice, and the fight in Octopussy's bedroom with the assassins with the yoyo is also one of the best fight scenes of the series. He pulls out some great moves.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,359
    Yeah I know this one has problems, but I still enjoy it a hell of a lot more than the other 'bad' ones (I get more fun from watching it than Diamonds, Quantum, Live and Let Die, Golden Gun, Dr No etc. easily). I love the locations and villains and the tone is really well done: it's absolute nonsense but somehow an atmosphere of genuine menace and danger is conjured, even when they're beating up Big Ron and forcing him to have a gentle sit down on a conveyor belt. I just like the whole thing! :)

    Plus I think it manages one of the filthiest double entendres in all of Bond when James tells Moneypenny that he'll 'fill her in later'. Bad James! :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,359
    Just to point out this is an Appreciation thread. ;)

    Even as a younger guy watching AVTAK, Moore's age didn't bother me as
    Roger Moore was James Bond ! ^:)^

    Well yes, this is the thing, isn't it? When you're a kid, all adults look old don't they? I don't ever remember thinking he looked more old than other grown ups at the time. He just looked like James Bond.
  • Posts: 17,753
    AVTAK is one of my guilty pleasures, but I don't really feel that guilty about it. It's just fun, and I'm on for the ride despite the film's flaws. On my most recent Bond film ranking it's placed 15th, above films like CR, YOLT, and SF.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    I once met Tanya Roberts at a signing about 20 years ago. I've not been to many of those sort of things but have to say she the rudest and most dismissive of all of them.

    Compared to Maud Adams, Caroline Munro, Valerie Leon etc, who were all nice and happy to chat about their time in Bond.

    I also had a nice conversation with John Glen about his approach to shooting action scenes, who until Martin Campbell is the best director of action in the series imo.
  • Posts: 1,917
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I know this one has problems, but I still enjoy it a hell of a lot more than the other 'bad' ones (I get more fun from watching it than Diamonds, Quantum, Live and Let Die, Golden Gun, Dr No etc. easily).

    You'd rather watch AVTAK and have more fun with it than DN? Maybe that should go in the controversial opinions thread.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,359
    Dr No is a good film for the time, but I think most of us prefer what the Bond films would turn into, don’t we?
  • edited May 2020 Posts: 1,917
    mtm wrote: »
    Dr No is a good film for the time, but I think most of us prefer what the Bond films would turn into, don’t we?
    You listed some of those you felt were bad above, so you answered your own question there. So many of the films didn't improve upon it.

    Did the series develop from DN, yes if you count FRWL and GF bringing the series to new heights. But I can't agree that too many of the films following those improve on what DN did very well on its first time out, setting the pace for the series and establishing initial interest in this hero and his world.

    I know AVTAK has its fans and if you enjoy it that's fine. I don't put anybody down for their choices, but I've had it at the bottom or near it in my rankings since the weekend it premiered, and as such I have a hard time imagining preferring a film that has Tanya Roberts screaming "James" every few minutes, Beach Boys covers during action sequences, comedy chases in fire trucks with bumbling cops...I'll stop there - over one with scenes like Bond's introduction in the casino, Dent's interrogation by Dr. No, the assassination of Dent, Honey's emergence from the sea and so on. It's like they're not even in the same series. AVTAK is viewed by some as a GF remake, so there's that and it often feels more like a Matt Helm or Flint film than Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,359
    BT3366 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Dr No is a good film for the time, but I think most of us prefer what the Bond films would turn into, don’t we?
    You listed some of those you felt were bad above, so you answered your own question there. So many of the films didn't improve upon it.

    What? I don’t follow your logic. You think that means I don’t prefer any of the other ones? That’s mental.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,110
    Just occurred to me that even though Tanya screams one's head off, she is a stunner nevertheless. With Mary Stavin, Fiona Fullerton and Alison Doody present as well, AVTAK is pretty easy on the eyes if I may say so.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,359
    My favourite bit is when the bad girls are running away from the floods in the tunnels but Doody is still holding her pistol up in the standard ‘evil assassin’ pose :D
  • Posts: 1,917
    mtm wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Dr No is a good film for the time, but I think most of us prefer what the Bond films would turn into, don’t we?
    You listed some of those you felt were bad above, so you answered your own question there. So many of the films didn't improve upon it.

    What? I don’t follow your logic. You think that means I don’t prefer any of the other ones? That’s mental.
    No, not what I meant at all. You listed several films that are lesser viewed by many in the fan community, which more or less shows those films didn't improve on what Dr. No did. Bigger, more talent, higher-grossing, yes. I'd say by and large the fan community values it above any of the others you listed in there.

    Personal preference I understand and I'm sure you're not alone in not holding DN in high esteem. For year's it wasn't one of mine but has risen in my estimation over the years. But it's it's a stretch to say DN was merely a product of its time, isn't it? It's influence is still felt in series' tropes today from the gunbarrel to the Walter to byplay with Moneypenny and on and on.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,359
    BT3366 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Dr No is a good film for the time, but I think most of us prefer what the Bond films would turn into, don’t we?
    You listed some of those you felt were bad above, so you answered your own question there. So many of the films didn't improve upon it.

    What? I don’t follow your logic. You think that means I don’t prefer any of the other ones? That’s mental.
    No, not what I meant at all. You listed several films that are lesser viewed by many in the fan community, which more or less shows those films didn't improve on what Dr. No did. Bigger, more talent, higher-grossing, yes. I'd say by and large the fan community values it above any of the others you listed in there.

    You don't think the Bond films improved after Dr No? It's pretty well known the 'fan community' that Goldfinger introduced the lauded 'Bond formula' that basically everyone likes. To say they didn't improve on whilst invoking the wisdom of the fan community seems contradictory.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Personal preference I understand and I'm sure you're not alone in not holding DN in high esteem. For year's it wasn't one of mine but has risen in my estimation over the years. But it's it's a stretch to say DN was merely a product of its time, isn't it? It's influence is still felt in series' tropes today from the gunbarrel to the Walter to byplay with Moneypenny and on and on.

    Just because it has some influences it doesn't mean it's not a product of its time. It is the first one in the series, but it's the most like a 50s/early 60s British film whereas the ones that followed started to find their own energy and moved on dramatically. It's a good film for what it is and does nothing wrong by its own terms but I prefer what came later, I hope that clears it up for you.
  • Posts: 4,044
    I still think Dr No introduces an incredible amount of the Bond formula. Goldfinger polishes it and has iconic characters.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    A View to a Kill will always be a guilty pleasure, but nothing can excuse the Americanised tone that made it feel more like a really over-the-top episode of Columbo.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,359
    Denbigh wrote: »
    A View to a Kill will always be a guilty pleasure, but nothing can excuse the Americanised tone that made it feel more like a really over-the-top episode of Columbo.

    Although my head can never quite adjust to the bit where Bond hangs onto the airship all the way from that lovely chalk pit in Sussex to San Francisco!
    :D
  • Posts: 1,917
    mtm wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Dr No is a good film for the time, but I think most of us prefer what the Bond films would turn into, don’t we?
    You listed some of those you felt were bad above, so you answered your own question there. So many of the films didn't improve upon it.

    What? I don’t follow your logic. You think that means I don’t prefer any of the other ones? That’s mental.
    No, not what I meant at all. You listed several films that are lesser viewed by many in the fan community, which more or less shows those films didn't improve on what Dr. No did. Bigger, more talent, higher-grossing, yes. I'd say by and large the fan community values it above any of the others you listed in there.

    You don't think the Bond films improved after Dr No? It's pretty well known the 'fan community' that Goldfinger introduced the lauded 'Bond formula' that basically everyone likes. To say they didn't improve on whilst invoking the wisdom of the fan community seems contradictory.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Personal preference I understand and I'm sure you're not alone in not holding DN in high esteem. For year's it wasn't one of mine but has risen in my estimation over the years. But it's it's a stretch to say DN was merely a product of its time, isn't it? It's influence is still felt in series' tropes today from the gunbarrel to the Walter to byplay with Moneypenny and on and on.

    Just because it has some influences it doesn't mean it's not a product of its time. It is the first one in the series, but it's the most like a 50s/early 60s British film whereas the ones that followed started to find their own energy and moved on dramatically. It's a good film for what it is and does nothing wrong by its own terms but I prefer what came later, I hope that clears it up for you.

    In conclusion, yes, I actually did point out in a previous post that FRWL and GF in particular improved on DN, and I certainly like TB and OHMSS more personally and several others afterwards. Some hardcore fans even state it was all downhill after GF and the films often became remakes of each other beginning with YOLT, which some saw as a larger-scale remake of DN and then copied itself 3 more times down the line. AVTAK is often looked at as an inferior GF remake. The series itself also gets pointed to for following trends from blaxploitation, kung fu and Star Wars to Indiana Jones and Bourne.

    I wasn't trying to say it was all downhill after DN by any means, just it shouldn't be discounted for what it did for the series, and the films you put in your original post such as DAF and TMWTGG were clearly not improvements, but with a series this many entries there are bound to be hits and misses. It's what makes being a fan interesting.

    And I do agree that DN has a lot about it that seems apart from what came after. It really feels like a hard-boiled detective story more than a spy story and the music adds to the datedness too. I've enjoyed the spirited discussion.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 2,917
    This just appeared in The Guardian: "Hear me out: why A View to a Kill isn't a bad movie"

    I can't say I'm convinced. If AVTAK isn't a bad movie than it's no better than mediocre. I loved AVTAK when I was a child, but as an adult with adult standards I can't in good conscience consider it a good movie.

    I give the author props for linking to an article praising Gold, one of Roger's best non-Bond films (and directed by Peter Hunt).

    But if you have to defend a Bond movie like AVTAK by praising it as "a glorious romp, silly and camp," you're already in trouble. AVTAK is often more of a slog than a romp, and the Bond films have never been at their best when silly or camp. No one has ever felt the need to apologize for liking the first three classic films, because while they had an excellent sense of humor they didn't indulge in camp, which is fatal to any film that aspires to genuine tension, danger, and suspense. Camp is fit for self-parody, not an effective thriller.

    Is Zorin "one of the great Bond villains"? I don't he think he rises beyond a couple of gimmicks and Walken's mannerisms. He doesn't have any chemistry with Moore either (no one in the film does, aside from Patrick Macnee). The author tries defending Zorin's sadism (partly by quoting Christopher Hitchens's worst article on Fleming), but the scene of Zorin gunning down his men feels contrived--the filmmakers are straining hard to say "look how evil he is!" Zorin's sadism isn't creative enough to be effective or worthy of a Fleming villain.

    Grace Jones’s May Day is praised for bringing "rare diversity and agency" the series. Perhaps, though her agency doesn't really kick in until when it's convenient for Bond. And again, she and Moore have no chemistry--they might as well be in different movies. Throw in Duran Duran and the increased violence, and Roger looks completely out of place in AVTAK, like Queen Victoria at a death metal concert.

    Of course I agree with the author's praise of John Barry's score. Without it AVTAK would be a much worse film. Barry was the sort of master composer whose scores could unify a film.

    And yes, the stuntwork is excellent, but isn't that true of every Bond film? It's the bare minimum one expects.

    It's ludicrous to argue "A View to a Kill is the pinnacle of Moore and therefore the pinnacle of Bond." AVTAK shows the series in a state of exhaustion, playing it safe by patterning the script on the GF formula and relying on a clearly too-old incumbent Bond but trying to make up for it by clumsily playing around with up-to-date elements. Glen and Maibaum and the rest of the team were plainly revitalized when they made TLD, so AVTAK represents the sort of inevitable low-point reached when any long-running series ends up in a rut and hasn't yet performed a gear-switch big enough to climb out.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Well put, as always, Revelator.

    Any article that uses AVTAK and pinnacle in the same sentence is bound to not be taken seriously. I'm all for people defending things they believe in, especially bad moves but this goes pretty indefensible. Calling May Day the best Bond girl, no, just no. I call her one of the most disappointing. Even the various Fiona Volpe clones - Fatima Blush, Xenia Onatopp - are more entertaining and interesting.

    I've noticed a lot more love over the years for AVTAK, but as someone who saw it on opening weekend and cringed all the way through, it's never left the bottom or near it in my rankings, which are so informal it's one of the few consistencies. I guess it must help to have seen it while discovering the other films. There's nothing that stands out in AVTAK you'd ever put in a top list. The Eiffel Tower jump is standout, but is lowered by so many other great stunts and that's about the action highlight.

    Part of the reason is the uneven tone between the camp and the serious. From people being dropped from great heights, dropped into spinning rotors, shot at point blank range in cold blood and machine gunned in cold blood one moment and then shifting to moments of hanging off firetrucks chased by comic cops and drunks caught up in watching Bond escape from the City Hall fire. It's such a glaring contrast, as Revelator mentioned, to the throwaway lines following danger that made the early films so fresh.

    I still think a critic in '85 may have summed it up best, saying "It's like they just got together and said 'Come on guys, it's time to make another Bond film.'" So to the author of the story, please spare Roger Moore and admit it isn't his finest moment, much less a worthy addition to the series.

  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Newton-le-Willows, England
    Posts: 257
    Never been a big fan of AVTAK, but Duran Duran’s theme and Christopher Walken are the two good things about it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2021 Posts: 16,359
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Part of the reason is the uneven tone between the camp and the serious. From people being dropped from great heights, dropped into spinning rotors, shot at point blank range in cold blood and machine gunned in cold blood one moment and then shifting to moments of hanging off firetrucks chased by comic cops and drunks caught up in watching Bond escape from the City Hall fire.

    Well okay, I quite like that though. I much prefer the bigger, broader Octopussy and AVTAK to the pure seriousness of FYEO, which I find a little on the dull side. Give me a mix of the serious and the silly any day. The whole climax does feel nicely serious to a kid, with John Barry really ramming home that this is all very important and dangerous.

    I really like the level at which AVTAK is pitched at, it's perfect comfort Bond for me. It hits a flat spot just after they travel to San Francisco, but it's not the only Bond to run out of steam in its second major location.

    And is Zorin one of the great Bond villains? Yes, absolutely! He's brilliant. Best Bond villain of the entire decade in fact, I'd say. Sanchez comes second I guess, but he has a touch of the rent-a-baddie about him: he could be in any non-Bond action movie. Zorin and Mayday could only be from a Bond, and they're played brilliantly.
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