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Bond movie ranking (Simple list, no details)

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  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    FoxRox wrote: »
    QOS and TLD are quite close. Sorry for the dislike of DAF and TMWTGG; the just have too many issues for me to have them higher right now. There were a fair amount of changes this time around. I hate ranking the Top 12 since I love those ones so much in particular.

    QOS & TLD are WORLDS apart in my rankings !

  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    barryt007 wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    QOS and TLD are quite close. Sorry for the dislike of DAF and TMWTGG; the just have too many issues for me to have them higher right now. There were a fair amount of changes this time around. I hate ranking the Top 12 since I love those ones so much in particular.

    QOS & TLD are WORLDS apart in my rankings !

    In mine too ;)
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    QOS and TLD are quite close. Sorry for the dislike of DAF and TMWTGG; the just have too many issues for me to have them higher right now. There were a fair amount of changes this time around. I hate ranking the Top 12 since I love those ones so much in particular.

    QOS & TLD are WORLDS apart in my rankings !

    In mine too ;)

    hahaha the opposite to mine though ;)

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Strog wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Very true @Strog, but I also believe a major factor that has been missing is Cubby Broccoli's oversight. Sometimes I sense a tendency here to downplay his impact and sort of lump Babs in with him (given the obvious family connection). Cubby kept very tight 'formula' control over that ship and his guiding influence was clear, even when the directors changed hands and even when the likes of Barry, Adam etc. weren't in the frame (FYEO or LTK as an example). I don't think it's coincidental that GE is the last time (imho) that a formula Bond was delivered with excellence. There was a consistency there, which is what I was referring to in my earlier posts about being missing these days.
    I should've mentioned Cubby, @bondjames. I would definitely consider as part of the talent that surrounded and elevated those journeyman directors.

    I think Harry deserves mention, as well. We all might have seen in various spots online that Harry and Cubby used to trade principal producing duties back and forth, alternating pictures. (Anyone know if Barbara and Michael do/did this?) Mankiewicz said that DAF was Cubby's. I'm not sure when they started passing duties back and forth like that. Presumably not from day one. But tracing it back even part way means Harry would've been at the helm for at least OHMSS, perhaps TB (who knows how McClory affected that one, though), and potentially FRWL. (The only 60s film where Cubby's name comes first in the credits is GF. Not sure how/if that ties in.) Anyway, that's not a bad (plausible) track record. Plus LALD, which is arguably the best of the post-60s/pre-partnership-dissolution entries.

    Obviously Cubby did fine on his own when the time came, and Harry's attention never seemed to be 100% on Bond, but Harry obviously knew what Bond should be, and it was he and Cubby's partnership that managed the most consistent period of Bond—six wonderful efforts in just eight years.

    This is all to say that maybe Eon's giving the director more control in the last decade or so is less a willingness than a necessity. Given the sheer force of two guys like Cubby and Harry, plus Barry, Adam, Hunt, and Maibaum, the role of director almost has to be a journeyman type. No way an 'auteur' could work within a system that stocked with creative talent. The vacuum created in the absense of these sorts of perennial visionaries now creates a kind of void in which directors can naturally have much more control and, quite frankly, need to.
    Excellent points @Strog. I agree that with strong personalities like Harry and Cubby a journeyman was probably the only way they could go. You're right that Harry should receive a lot of credit also and I regret not mentioning him previously.

    That's why I believe the choice of director is 'critical' under the current leadership, given their increasing importance. They've been prioritizing 'passion' by their own admission of late, but I think it would be helpful if they also consider someone with a more visionary outlook for the character, as opposed to approaching it on a film by film basis. That would avoid the 'choppiness' (at least imho) in concept and execution which we've seen of late.

    I wasn't aware that Cubby and Harry rotated principal producing duties on the earlier films. Come to think of it, there is a slight tonal difference between GF, YOLT & DAF in comparison to the other films. I wonder if that explains it (other than the obvious director change).
  • StrogStrog
    Posts: 684
    bondjames wrote: »
    I wasn't aware that Cubby and Harry rotated principal producing duties on the earlier films. Come to think of it, there is a slight tonal difference between GF, YOLT & DAF in comparison to the other films. I wonder if that explains it (other than the obvious director change).
    Yeah, I'm not sure either. It's interesting though. I haven't found any source yet that mentions when they started rotating, or how precisely their duties would change, but I imagine the difference could have been significant enough to produce the tonal changes you mentioned.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    I'd remembered seeing this mentioned in Some Kind Of Hero. This book is a must read.

    p.153 "In April 66 [...] Variety announced the first signs of fissures in the Eon camp..."
    "...they would informally be the key producer on alternate films, each one being involved; one having final say. Broccoli took the producing reigns for You Only Live Twice."

    p.221 "Steven Saltzman confirmed the worsening state of affairs at his father's company. Eon Productions, '[Broccoli and Saltzman] alternated on films. It didn't mean they weren't both involved but one had final decision and was actually dealing with it on a daily basis. For Live and Let Die it was Harry.' "

    p.243 Hamilton before TMWTGG -"...it was arranged diplomatically that the next picture would be Cubby's or Harry's. I think that was the solution Cubby desired."

    If they actually alternated each time without making two consecutive films after YOLT, then we can guess that Cubby was also the head producer for DAF/TMWTGG and Harry was for OHMSS. Not sure if those are explicitly said however.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Thanks @BondAficionado. That's a book I've seen mentioned here before. I'll definitely try to pick up a copy to get a better perspective on all things Bond.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited February 2018 Posts: 7,136
    So if I’m correct it went something like this:

    - Cubby: GF, YOLT, DAF, TMWTGG
    - Harry: DN, FRWL, TB, OHMSS, LALD

    Or did I misread?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    So if I’m correct it went something like this:

    - Cubby: GF, YOLT, DAF, TMWTGG
    - Harry: DN, FRWL, TB, OHMSS, LALD

    Or did I misread?
    I think that we have concluded that from YOLT onwards that is probably the case, but it's not clear if it occured prior to that (probably not, because the relationship appeared to have been better in the earlier days). It's interesting that YOLT was the first Bond film to witness a decline at the global box office as well.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    It was because their relationship soured, so they elected to take turns and not get in each others way.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    So if I’m correct it went something like this:

    - Cubby: GF, YOLT, DAF, TMWTGG
    - Harry: DN, FRWL, TB, OHMSS, LALD

    Or did I misread?

    Well the book implies that they only alternated from YOLT to TMWTGG. They definitely wouldn't have done it before Thunderball though.
  • StrogStrog
    edited February 2018 Posts: 684
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    I'd remembered seeing this mentioned in Some Kind Of Hero. This book is a must read.

    p.153 "In April 66 [...] Variety announced the first signs of fissures in the Eon camp..."
    "...they would informally be the key producer on alternate films, each one being involved; one having final say. Broccoli took the producing reigns for You Only Live Twice."

    p.221 "Steven Saltzman confirmed the worsening state of affairs at his father's company. Eon Productions, '[Broccoli and Saltzman] alternated on films. It didn't mean they weren't both involved but one had final decision and was actually dealing with it on a daily basis. For Live and Let Die it was Harry.' "

    p.243 Hamilton before TMWTGG -"...it was arranged diplomatically that the next picture would be Cubby's or Harry's. I think that was the solution Cubby desired."
    Excellent @BondAficionado! I really must finally pick that up. I've got Rubin's book but it's nowhere near as thorough on a per film basis from what I can tell.
    If they actually alternated each time without making two consecutive films after YOLT, then we can guess that Cubby was also the head producer for DAF/TMWTGG and Harry was for OHMSS. Not sure if those are explicitly said however.
    In his autobiography Tom Mankiewicz at least confirmed Cubby at the helm of DAF:

    pg. 136: "Harry Saltzman and Cubby Broccoli were the producers. They traded first billing. Traditionally, one of them would take the next film and produce it principally. So, Diamonds Are Forever was Cubby's film."

    He then mentions this is one of the reasons Connery agreed to return (he didn't want Harry around).

    I suppose this also further implies Harry's helm of OHMSS.
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's interesting that YOLT was the first Bond film to witness a decline at the global box office as well.
    Yes. Perhaps a bit of a SF-SP situation there as well, @bondjames. How much bigger than TB could it get? Maybe that was worrying (even if the ultimate answer was, it couldn't). YOLT was the first film with a two year gap preceding it. If the size of the empire got too big post-TB I can see how having one producer always more focused on the next one might serve as insurance, for consistency — aside from bridging any fissures which might have cropped up.
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    Well the book implies that they only alternated from YOLT to TMWTGG. They definitely wouldn't have done it before Thunderball though.
    I agree that seems that's the case based on the quotes provided. Four films in four years plus having to negotiate an additional producer in McClory for the fourth could understandably strain a relationship.

    Still curious that GF is the only film for which Cubby is credited first.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The gap between TB and YOLT was only three months longer than GF-TB. Hardly noticable.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Strog wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's interesting that YOLT was the first Bond film to witness a decline at the global box office as well.
    Yes. Perhaps a bit of a SF-SP situation there as well, @bondjames. How much bigger than TB could it get? Maybe that was worrying (even if the ultimate answer was, it couldn't). YOLT was the first film with a two year gap preceding it. If the size of the empire got too big post-TB I can see how having one producer always more focused on the next one might serve as insurance, for consistency — aside from bridging any fissures which might have cropped up.
    I can imagine that the pressure post-TB must have been immense @Strog. However, perhaps the same can be said for post-GF too and they surpassed that at the box office. It's true that at some point everything maxes out though. The fact that even 50+ years later they still haven't been able to top TB at the box office suggests that it perhaps was the apex of Bond's popularity.

    Still, despite YOLT's notable ambition it does come across as a bit lax in comparison to its predecessors (as does SP, to put it mildly) and in both cases there could have been behind the scenes stresses (script idiocy with SP and Cubby/Harry issues with YOLT) which contributed to that.
  • StrogStrog
    Posts: 684
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    The gap between TB and YOLT was only three months longer than GF-TB. Hardly noticable.
    You're correct there, @Thunderfinger. I've let the year on the tin fool me.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I can imagine that the pressure post-TB must have been immense @Strog. However, perhaps the same can be said for post-GF too and they surpassed that at the box office. It's true that at some point everything maxes out though. The fact that even 50+ years later they still haven't been able to top TB at the box office suggests that it perhaps was the apex of Bond's popularity.
    Yes, I suppose it only looks now like Bond couldn't go any bigger than TB because it didn't. As you rightly say, the same was true of GF until it wasn't.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,169
    1. THUNDERBALL
    2. DR. NO
    3. GOLDFINGER
    4. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    5. OCTOPUSSY/NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN
    6. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    7. LIVE AND LET DIE
    8. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    9. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    10. A VIEW TO A KILL
    11. LICENCE TO KILL
    12. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    13. SKYFALL
    14. CASINO ROYALE 06
    15. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    16. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    17. MOONRAKER
    18. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN/ CR 54
    19. TOMORROW NEVER DIES
    20. GOLDENEYE
    21. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    22. SPECTRE
    23. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    24. DIE ANOTHER DAY/ CR 67

  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Great to see TB top of the tree @ToTheRight ,although QOS & GE are a lot higher on mine.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,169
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Great to see TB top of the tree @ToTheRight ,although QOS & GE are a lot higher on mine.

    I love TB. GoldenEye should be higher, actually. I found the last time I watched TND, it held up slightly more. Probably due to the Arnold score and it's overall sense of fun.
    It's been quite some time since I've seen TWINE all the way through, so I can imagine it may change in my rankings in the future.
    Kind of sad to have QOS second to last. An opening better designed gunbarrel and a well placed "Bond. James Bond" could have rectified that.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    edited February 2018 Posts: 1,534
    1. GoldenEye 10
    2. Casino Royale 2006 10
    3. Licence To Kill 10
    4. The Living Daylights 10
    5. Thunderball 10
    6. Goldfinger 10
    7. From Russia With Love 10
    8. Dr. No 10
    9. On Her Majesty's Secret Service 10
    10. Quantum Of Solace 9
    11. Tomorrow Never Dies 9
    12. For Your Eyes Only 9
    13. The Spy Who Loved Me 9
    14. Octopussy 9
    15. Moonraker 9
    16. A View To A Kill 8
    17. The World Is Not Enough 8
    18. Die Another Day 8
    19. Skyfall 8
    20. Diamonds Are Forever 8
    21. Live And Let Die 8
    22. The Man With The Golden Gun 8
    23. You Only Live Twice 8
    24. Casino Royale 1967 7
    25. Never Say Never Again 6
    26. Spectre 4
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    I like your generosity @Remington!
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I like your generosity @Remington!

    Thank you my friend. I'm a happy camper I guess.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,169
    1. THUNDERBALL
    2. GOLDFINGER
    3. DR NO
    4. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    5. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    6. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    7. LIVE AND LET DIE
    8. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    9. CASINO ROYALE 06
    10. OCTOPUSSY/NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN
    11. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    12. LICENCE TO KILL
    13. A VIEW TO A KILL
    14. SKYFALL
    15. GOLDENEYE
    16. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    17. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    18. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN/ CR 54
    19. MOONRAKER
    20. SPECTRE
    21. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    22. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    23. TOMORROW NEVER DIES
    24. DIE ANOTHER DAY/ CR 67
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    24 is bang on.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,473
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    1. THUNDERBALL
    2. GOLDFINGER
    3. DR NO
    4. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    5. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    6. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    7. LIVE AND LET DIE
    8. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    9. CASINO ROYALE 06
    10. OCTOPUSSY/NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN
    11. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    12. LICENCE TO KILL
    13. A VIEW TO A KILL
    14. SKYFALL
    15. GOLDENEYE
    16. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    17. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    18. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN/ CR 54
    19. MOONRAKER
    20. SPECTRE
    21. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    22. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    23. TOMORROW NEVER DIES
    24. DIE ANOTHER DAY/ CR 67

    I like this list pretty well. TND, QOS, YOLT, SF, and GE I wish were higher, but other than that pretty similar.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,169
    FoxRox wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    1. THUNDERBALL
    2. GOLDFINGER
    3. DR NO
    4. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    5. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    6. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    7. LIVE AND LET DIE
    8. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    9. CASINO ROYALE 06
    10. OCTOPUSSY/NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN
    11. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    12. LICENCE TO KILL
    13. A VIEW TO A KILL
    14. SKYFALL
    15. GOLDENEYE
    16. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    17. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    18. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN/ CR 54
    19. MOONRAKER
    20. SPECTRE
    21. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    22. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    23. TOMORROW NEVER DIES
    24. DIE ANOTHER DAY/ CR 67

    I like this list pretty well. TND, QOS, YOLT, SF, and GE I wish were higher, but other than that pretty similar.

    Thanks! I toy with mixing it up more, but they end up clumped in various eras: the John Glens, and Hamilton and Gilbert are intermixed a bit. The early Connerys always remain in my top 5.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    1. THUNDERBALL
    2. GOLDFINGER
    3. DR NO
    4. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    5. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    6. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    7. LIVE AND LET DIE
    8. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    9. CASINO ROYALE 06
    10. OCTOPUSSY/NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN
    11. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    12. LICENCE TO KILL
    13. A VIEW TO A KILL
    14. SKYFALL
    15. GOLDENEYE
    16. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    17. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    18. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN/ CR 54
    19. MOONRAKER
    20. SPECTRE
    21. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    22. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    23. TOMORROW NEVER DIES
    24. DIE ANOTHER DAY/ CR 67

    I like this list pretty well. TND, QOS, YOLT, SF, and GE I wish were higher, but other than that pretty similar.

    Thanks! I toy with mixing it up more, but they end up clumped in various eras: the John Glens, and Hamilton and Gilbert are intermixed a bit. The early Connerys always remain in my top 5.quote]

    I didn't know Connery was Bond in TSWLM ? ;)
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,169
    I like this list pretty well. TND, QOS, YOLT, SF, and GE I wish were higher, but other than that pretty similar.[/quote]

    Thanks! I toy with mixing it up more, but they end up clumped in various eras: the John Glens, and Hamilton and Gilbert are intermixed a bit. The early Connerys always remain in my top 5.quote]

    I didn't know Connery was Bond in TSWLM ? ;)

    [/quote]

    LOL! Indeed he was. It was going to be called Warhead. :)

    TSWLM is another I seem to always have up there as well, though OP, FYEO and LALD tend to battle for that number one Roger spot as well. TSWLM is one of the first I saw as a kid after MR came out and loved it.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,433
    My list with no explanation....

    1) FRWL
    2) TB
    3) GF
    4) FYEO
    5) OHMSS
    6) CR
    7) SF
    8) YOLT
    9) TMWTGG
    10) DN
    11) DAF
    12) GE
    13) TLD
    14) LALD
    15) TSWLM
    16) TWINE
    17) QOS
    18) SP
    19) DAD
    20) MR
    21) OP
    22) AVTAK
    23) TND
    24)LTK
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    We share seven films in the top ten, so that s pretty good.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    thedove wrote: »
    My list with no explanation....

    1) FRWL
    2) TB
    3) GF
    4) FYEO
    5) OHMSS
    6) CR
    7) SF
    8) YOLT
    9) TMWTGG
    10) DN
    11) DAF
    12) GE
    13) TLD
    14) LALD
    15) TSWLM
    16) TWINE
    17) QOS
    18) SP
    19) DAD
    20) MR
    21) OP
    22) AVTAK
    23) TND
    24)LTK
    We have the same top two. In my top five I have TSWLM & DN in place of FYEO & GF.

    It's great to see someone showing appreciation for TMWTGG (a sentimental favourite of mine).
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